OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #78

[Pru2U]

I wonder if she had COVID at some point?

Could be. All that matters is she is alive and well and lived to tell the tale, succinctly and with confidence. She's a true survivor in every sense.

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

I hold a completely different viewpoint, if somebodies' testimony has been bought then I don't think they are telling the truth, they are telling a truth, IMO,

Is there a way you believe to get to the "real" truth?

 

[ohioexpat63]

From what I remember hearing FW, RN, and CN knew/knows more than they are letting on, for they were at some of the rantings agsinst Dewine, BCi and others. JMO

How brave was Beth, choosing to opt in and facing evil live! Courageous beyond most people's expectations, I believe. Jmo

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

From what I remember hearing FW, RN, and CN knew/knows more than they are letting on, for they were at some of the rantings agsinst Dewine, BCi and others. JMO

How brave was Beth, choosing to opt in and face evil live! Courageous beyond most people's expectations, I believe. Jmo

She kept looking over at George. I'm sure he did his usual and kept his head down. This is not going well for him so far.

 

[joe jones]

Is there a way you believe to get to the "real" truth?

very easy, evidence,

 

[justtrish]

I hold a completely different viewpoint, if somebodies' testimony has been bought then I don't think they are telling the truth, they are telling a version of the truth, IMO. I can quite easily see AW doing some of the murders the longer this trial has gone on, or even BW not even being there, thus far a month in nobody has been placed at the scene by the evidence, not even GW

and if I am expected to solely take JW word on who did what at the crime scenes then for me the state will not have proven their case,

who knows how much longer the state's case will be before we get to JW and AW,

I think the nature of the deal does matter also. He didn't get himself off with 20 years or try to deflect responsibility at all.. he seemed to take most responsibility and also be bargining for his families lives too. Not the typical deal and not one that he made to gain some great sentence while someone else in his family was sent to death row.

I do agree often deals are made to give one person that is just as guilty some sweet deal in exchange for tattling on someone else or putting it all on someone else. That isn't what Jake did so I don't know that he was taking a deal or being bought. He actually tried to reduce his brothers time/involvement. Not really the actions of someone trying to skirt blame and get a deal.

 

[Pru2U]

I hold a completely different viewpoint, if somebodies' testimony has been bought then I don't think they are telling the truth, they are telling a truth, IMO,

I was thinking about this last night, Joe.

He's a murderer, the bar is low.

The confessions of JW and AW are the closest the victim's families, the jury and the rest of the world will ever get to the truth of what happened that night. Their testimony may not be 100% truth, but like every other piece of evidence, it's what the jury has to work with.

 

[CIA Team Member]

was it ever revealed how she sustained brain injury/trauma

My sound on youtube L&C is difficult to decipher. Too much bass, I guess. So, I believe she explained but I couldn't hear and the closed caption is...hideous.

 

[joe jones]

I think the nature of the deal does matter also. He didn't get himself off with 20 years or try to deflect responsibility at all.. he seemed to take most responsibility and also be bargining for his families lives too. Not the typical deal and not one that he made to gain some great sentence while someone else in his family was sent to death row.

I do agree often deals are made to give one person that is just as guilty some sweet deal in exchange for tattling on someone else or putting it all on someone else. That isn't what Jake did so I don't know that he was taking a deal or being bought. He actually tried to reduce his brothers time/involvement. Not really the actions of someone trying to skirt blame and get a deal.

they were never going to give him a deal less than LWOP, they couldn't have even offered him less than that, AW got her 30 years post JW proffer, now we will never know if she did more than JW says she did,

pre the trial I never thought AW had been at the crime scenes or murdered anybody, after all I have learned about her from the trial, I can easily see her killing people, I thought pre the trial from all I had read that BW was a massive bullying presence in AW and his sons lives, seems that was wrong, as he wasn't even living at Bethel Hill, never ever lived at Peterson Rd, and once back from Alaska again back to his mum,

pre the trial I thought the Wagners got along, and had these cosy chats where they plotted and schemed and voted, seems they argued and shouted pre and post the murders, and BW almost seemed to loathe his boys, AW and BW marriage had been over for years IMO and she expected her sons to support her as BW wasn't doing it,

so much of what I thought I knew pre trial I didn't, I was wrong on so many things, so what I now think of the actual murders has changed, and as I say I wouldn't be surprised if AW was there and BW and GW not, or if BW only did the driving,

as it is only through JW words do we have the states version, we do not know if there was any conversation between BW and CRsr about a drug deal, I haven't heard any witness say this was going to happen, I do not know who had what gun that night, I know what guns were used, but JW is going to be telling us who shot what and who killed who,
I am not on the jury, so my musings on the internet are just musings, and as I have posted all along I expect GW to be convicted on most if not all charges

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

very easy, evidence,

Imo, the prosecutors have proven conspiracy. I'd be interested in hearing opinion about that. No sarcasm. When I read the definition, I think it's proven, but I'm open to a discussion.

 

[joe jones]

I was thinking about this last night, Joe.

He's a murderer, the bar is low.

The confessions of JW and AW are the closest the victim's families, the jury and the rest of the world will ever get to the truth of what happened that night. Their testimony may not be 100% truth, but like every other piece of evidence, it's what the jury has to work with.

as per my long post explaining my thoughts, I have moved from AW staying at home to her being at the crime scenes and maybe killing some of the victims, I don't know if she was there, same as I don't know if BW or GW were there, but out of all the witnesses we have heard from and the constant use of the word controlling in relation to her I think there is a possibility that she could not leave anything to chance, and so she went along to ensure the job was done to her satisfaction IMO

 

[joe jones]

Imo, the prosecutors have proven conspiracy. I'd be interested in hearing opinion about that. No sarcasm. When I read the definition, I think it's proven, but I'm open to a discussion.

I am really interested in conspiracy charges, as besides being a Wagner (and there is nothing he did to suffer that unfortunate fate) what actual things did GW do, he cannot be convicted solely on the idea that he lived with them,

he has to conspire in some way surely IMO

 

[Cool Cats]

She did. She ran from them just 3 months after they got back from Ohio and just one month after all those Grand Jury subpoenas were served in July.

She wasn't comfortable in the Missouri hotel with them and snuck out to call her brother. Jake took S to come find her and told her not to leave alone again. The excuse, not safe.

Addition to my post.

Because of a name change Elizabeth's visa was delayed to be able to go into Canada. So instead of driving from AK to Missouri with the Wagners - where their loans fell through on the Missouri house - she flew to Missouri.

They picked her up at the airport and took her to the Hotel. She discovered a crowded room, just one room, with a bathroom for the only privacy.

There were 2 beds and a recliner chair. Angela slept with the 2 children and George slept in the recliner and she had a bed with Jake, and Billy slept outside in the truck. They stayed there for at least 5 days. I assume trying to get the Missouri home using fraudulent information on 2 different loan applications.

Fairway Lending Subpoena (1 p)
Fairway Lending -- Residential Loan Application (202 pp)
Movement Mortgage
Mortage Documents

She is a newlywed and felt uncomfortable when she walked into that obviously crowded Hotel room.

Then in Ohio George dropped Billy back at FWF to live there and all the rest went to live in the 3 bedroom house Angie inherited from her dad. They painted the kitchen red, the living room brown and down the hall were 2 bedrooms across from each other and they painted one of the bedrooms pink and one blue.

Then Jake and George got their truck hauling job and when they were gone both kids slept with Angie in the blue room, Elizabeth slept in the pink room. Then when Jake was home, even though S had a small bed in the pink room, Jake made her sleep in bed with them. So as newlyweds they weren't able to have privacy.

When asked why one room was pink and one room blue, Elizabeth said it was to prove to any CPS workers that each child had their own rooms. B had the blue room and S had the pink room. Elizabeth only remembers Billy staying overnight there one, maybe 2 times.

A 3rd bedroom was located elsewhere in the house. I assume George slept there.

Yes she overheard the revenge and jail break conversations. She said they talked about taking a certain type of construction vehicle and use it to mow down the jail walls. That was one idea.

Jake also asked her for all her private information, social security number, passwords, other stuff, and insisted to have access to her phone to see everything she did on her phone. Sinking up their phones together, something like that.

When she went to get her Ohio driver's license Jake gave her the wrong address. When she got back from changing her license she saw on the house that the house number was different from what Jake had told her.

One time they took her on their truck driving job throughout different States. She said they went to many different States on their trucking job. When asked if George didn't like her she said he talked normally to her.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

they were never going to give him a deal less than LWOP, they couldn't have even offered him less than that, AW got her 30 years post JW proffer, now we will never know if she did more than JW says she did,

pre the trial I never thought AW had been at the crime scenes or murdered anybody, after all I have learned about her from the trial, I can easily see her killing people, I thought pre the trial from all I had read that BW was a massive bullying presence in AW and his sons lives, seems that was wrong, as he wasn't even living at Bethel Hill, never ever lived at Peterson Rd, and once back from Alaska again back to his mum,

pre the trial I thought the Wagners got along, and had these cosy chats where they plotted and schemed and voted, seems they argued and shouted pre and post the murders, and BW almost seemed to loathe his boys, AW and BW marriage had been over for years IMO and she expected her sons to support her as BW wasn't doing it,

so much of what I thought I knew pre trial I didn't, I was wrong on so many things, so what I now think of the actual murders has changed, and as I say I wouldn't be surprised if AW was there and BW and GW not, or if BW only did the driving,

as it is only through JW words do we have the states version, we do not know if there was any conversation between BW and CRsr about a drug deal, I haven't heard any witness say this was going to happen, I do not know who had what gun that night, I know what guns were used, but JW is going to be telling us who shot what and who killed who,
I am not on the jury, so my musings on the internet are just musings, and as I have posted all along I expect GW to be convicted on most if not all charges

While I would love to know what exactly happened the night of the murders and how these people came to decide they had the right to kill anyone who was present that night, it doesn't matter to me if Angela was there or not. She's the Charlie Manson figure in this conspiracy, creating the cult-like environment and twisted thinking that sent the others to do her dirty work. Given her age and the stress of prison, I suspect 30 years is a life sentence for her. But what probably pains her most is that the grandchildren are out of her control and with their mothers' families, and in Bulvine's case, his actual mother.

 

[CIA Team Member]

No. All she said was it was non-traumatic brain damage.

Stroke was my first thought because my sister just had a major one. But I looked it up: A non-traumatic brain injury occurs because of disease, the presence of toxins, or a lack of oxygen to the brain. Some of the specific ways in which someone can end up with brain damage include:

• Infectious disease
• Cancer
• Tumor
• Stroke
• Near drowning
• Poisoning

Thanks for the clarification, Pru.

 

[joe jones]

While I would love to know what exactly happened the night of the murders and how these people came to decide they had the right to kill anyone who was present that night, it doesn't matter to me if Angela was there or not. She's the Charlie Manson figure in this conspiracy, creating the cult-like environment and twisted thinking that sent the others to do her dirty work. Given her age and the stress of prison, I suspect 30 years is a life sentence for her. But what probably pains her most is that the grandchildren are out of her control and with their mothers' families, and in Bulvine's case, his actual mother.

I am just flabbergasted that you don't think it matters, that AW could have been the one murdering innocent people as they slept, IMO

 

[justtrish]

they were never going to give him a deal less than LWOP, they couldn't have even offered him less than that, AW got her 30 years post JW proffer, now we will never know if she did more than JW says she did,

pre the trial I never thought AW had been at the crime scenes or murdered anybody, after all I have learned about her from the trial, I can easily see her killing people, I thought pre the trial from all I had read that BW was a massive bullying presence in AW and his sons lives, seems that was wrong, as he wasn't even living at Bethel Hill, never ever lived at Peterson Rd, and once back from Alaska again back to his mum,

pre the trial I thought the Wagners got along, and had these cosy chats where they plotted and schemed and voted, seems they argued and shouted pre and post the murders, and BW almost seemed to loathe his boys, AW and BW marriage had been over for years IMO and she expected her sons to support her as BW wasn't doing it,

so much of what I thought I knew pre trial I didn't, I was wrong on so many things, so what I now think of the actual murders has changed, and as I say I wouldn't be surprised if AW was there and BW and GW not, or if BW only did the driving,

as it is only through JW words do we have the states version, we do not know if there was any conversation between BW and CRsr about a drug deal, I haven't heard any witness say this was going to happen, I do not know who had what gun that night, I know what guns were used, but JW is going to be telling us who shot what and who killed who,
I am not on the jury, so my musings on the internet are just musings, and as I have posted all along I expect GW to be convicted on most if not all charges

I can understand this way of thinking about it all. Someone in a previous thread not too long ago posted about enmeshed families and how often it's chaos and constant fighting, but ultimately it's them against the outside world. We do see that theme here and again I don't see any attempt on George's part to separate from that. The chaos is likely all they ever knew, but when it came down to it, they stuck together. Billy was still involved in their lives even not living there. They all seemed equally concerned and focused on the children and keeping anyone and everyone they deemed bad away.

 

[CIA Team Member]

Addition to my post.

Because of a name change Elizabeth's visa was delayed to be able to go into Canada. So instead of driving from AK to Missouri with the Wagners - where their loans fell through on the Missouri house - she flew to Missouri.

They picked her up at the airport and took her to the Hotel. She discovered a crowded room, just one room, with a bathroom for the only privacy.

There were 2 beds and a recliner chair. Angela slept with the 2 children and George slept in the recliner and she had a bed with Jake, and Billy slept outside in the truck.

She is a newlywed and felt uncomfortable.

Then in Ohio George dropped Billy back at FWF to live there and all the rest went to live in the 3 bedroom house Angie inherited from her dad. They painted the kitchen red, the living room brown and one back bedroom pink and one blue.

Then Jake and George got their truck hauling job and when they were gone both kids slept with Angie in the blue room, Elizabeth slept in the pink room. Then when Jake was home, even though S had a small bed in the pink room, Jake made her sleep in bed with them. So as newlyweds they weren't able to have privacy.

When asked why one room was pink and one room blue, Elizabeth said it was to prove to any CPS workers that each child had their own rooms. B had the blue room and S had the pink room. Elizabeth only remembers Billy staying overnight there one, maybe 2 times.

Criminals sure work hard at...not working.

Also at covering up. Weird.

 

[justtrish]

10/21/2022	MOTION AND ORDER FOR SEALING FILED
10/21/2022	REQUEST FOR COURT-PAID EXPERT EXPENSES (SEALED PER COURT ORDER FILED 3/18/22)
10/21/2022	SUBPOENA ISSUED TO ELIZABETH ARMER
10/21/2022	RETURN OF SERVICE OF SUBPOENA TO ELIZABETH ARMER -- SERVED 10/21/22

I just checked the docket and see these for today. So what is the motion and order for sealing? Is this related to Beth's subpoena? Clearly she was subpoenad before today because she showed up so did they seal her subpoena until after she teistifed and that is why they all showed up the same day on the record?

If so, then I bet they do the same for Angela and Jake and we won't know when they are moved/subpoenaed.

 

[PrairieWind]

as per my long post explaining my thoughts, I have moved from AW staying at home to her being at the crime scenes and maybe killing some of the victims, I don't know if she was there, same as I don't know if BW or GW were there, but out of all the witnesses we have heard from and the constant use of the word controlling in relation to her I think there is a possibility that she could not leave anything to chance, and so she went along to ensure the job was done to her satisfaction IMO

I don't think there is any evidence that AW was at the scenes. Testimony given so far shows her more as a puppet master. Directing from the back. She gets others to do her dirty work. There is evidence to show that GW4 and BW were at the scenes however.