OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #81

[pittsburghgirl]

I've been thinking and going down a rabbit hole, I figured I'd just throw it out there and it's just all my thoughts/opinion, not fact.

I keep thinking about Jake saying after he shot everywhere, he heard Billy shoot twice. That is such a discrepancy to the 9 times we know Chris Sr was shot.

I feel like from his testimony he is minimizing George's role and attempting to take all blame (maybe because he feels guilty it was his decision, he didn't want to back out and George said it wasn't a good idea). He doesn't say George isn't there, but he sorta glosses over where George was or what he was doing.

We know Frankie's house was close. If you were shooting 2 people at 11pm when many people are still awake, wouldn't you want a lookout for Frankie's house? Remember Jake said AFTER Chris and Gary were shot he went over to Frankie's, but the doors were locked. What if he went BEFORE Chris and Gary were shot. What if he walked over there and that is why he doesn't know where the shots came from that hit Chris Sr arm and the door. He doesn't know because he didn't shoot him, George did. He doesn't know how many shots Billy fired after that because he was over at Frankie's house either checking doors or actually killing them then.

There seems to be a large gap in time from then to when we see those trucks going away from Union hill road and then back to it.. then away again and back. I think they were at Chris Sr trying to get into his safe. They covered the bodies because they didn't want to look at them while they were searching for what they wanted.

Just some random things I was pondering over today.

This is certainly a plausible scenario.

 

[LMDlong]

Anyone think GWIV will get a plea deal tomorrow morning?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Irish wrote:

I'll add to my last thought that this motive is so bizarre that I think this is why we had to really hear all the details about people closer to this family knowing how things were. How they were together as a unit, how they all protected the kids, how the past accusations over poisoning and touching the kids happened, what the fallout of those accusations were.. this family was serious about these kids and any perceived by them (key words here) infraction having to do with the kids. EXTREME overreaction each time. I mean they went to the ER to test the kids for drugs after BCI was with them, they chased Tabatha out by Angela going to get her gun, Beth was so scared she went into Walmart and went out the back to a car. It just think it shows that whatever they were doing in that home, scared the crap out of those that left and the only person that stood up to them was Hannah May and her family is gone now. If we didn't hear the other stories, it would be harder to believe 8 people died because a child could possibly be molested at some point in the future.

But really was the motive about a SA that MIGHT happen or was it about control? I think underneath it all, it was really about control. AW may have worried about a SA but she wanted control of them all. JMO

I think both of these observations are right but we have to look at them through a framework of extreme family dysfunction rather than what normal people would consider a motive for doing something.
*There's a long history of parents committing murder to get custody of children (watch Dateline. It's like a theme on that show.) Some do it because they don't trust the other parent; others do it because they are unwilling to share; still others do it out of spite or revenge. Some may want to reconstitute the family with a new spouse in the old one's place; that is, they see the "spouse" role as a kind of placeholder that can be switched out as desired. What all of these "motives" have in common is gross ENTITLEMENT, the core belief that they can have what they want because the rules for others don't apply to them.
*There's a long history of men, in particular, of murdering intimate partners for daring to leave them (and taking the children). This is a danger that all WSers know, that the most dangerous point in a dysfunctional relationship with an angry man is when the woman tries to leave. We see that clearly in this case when Tabitha and Beth run for their lives (to the point where Tabitha is willing to run from her son, whom she loves).

An armchair shrink with a list of criteria from the DSM-5 could diagnose the Wagner family members as each having "anti-social personality disorder"--a disorder itself, when applied to individuals, that has both genetic and environmental components. We can look to those raised in organized crime families to see the influence of environment. In this case, the cult-like aspect of how this family functioned, along with the parents' anti-social personality disorder explains how these two things collide--how the need to control children in such an enmeshed, dysfunctional family collides with the individual disorders of the individuals. Jake seems to me to be almost a stereotypical example of someone who murders his domestic partner because "if I can't have you, no one can." And Angela--well, the article I'm linking points to women with ASPD as "more likely to...lie frequently, forge someone's signature, and harass, threaten or blackmail someone." And Billy? Look at this list of characteristics of men who have ASPD (I cut the references to reckless driving, etc.)

• do things that could easily hurt themselves or other...
• destroy others’ property
• start a fire on purpose
• make money illegally
• do anything that could lead to arrest
• hit someone hard enough to injure them
• hurt an animal on purpose.

Both Jake and George were raised to be like their father.

I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that we tie ourselves in knots trying to discern motives of people who are not like us in any way. The massacre they committed comes out of both being part of an anti-social crime family and from being themselves individuals who are anti-social and entitled to do whatever they want, regardless of consequences to others. And this is why ordinary families who live together and help each other are not "enmeshed" in this way. It's what separates the Rhodens (in spite of Chris and KR growing weed, etc.) from the Wagners. Chris wasn't a sociopath.

It's correct to say "custody" was at the root of this massacre but not the way we think of custody as "going to court" or fighting over who gets time with a child. It's about the Wagner entitlement to custody, entitlement to control others and total disregard for laws or social norms. I would love to read a true crime book about this case, but more than that I would want a forensic psychologist to lay out this intergenerational abuse of women and children and the impact of family sociopathy. The biggest hurdle for the state is that none of us are equipped with the world experience to understand these freaks.

I found this article among others helpful because it looks at both men and women: Antisocial Personality Disorder | Abnormal Psychology

 

[Chelly]

Is it known if Jake's testimony met all the conditions of his plea agreement?

 

[arielilane]

Jake places a firearm in George's hands. And common sense would tell us that you don't go on a murder rampage without a weapon.

Good morning! Agreed about what you stated, but did the state show GW4 fired a firearm at any of the crime scenes? I must have missed it that... Do you have a link, exception being a tweet. TIA

 

[arielilane]

Thinking about the victims, and wanted to point out about SA topic, IMO. Unless you have been in the shoes of a young girl who experienced SA you cannot image the psychological damage that is done. It's a lifetime of everlasting damage, and unfortunately HR did not get a chance to live, she paid with her life for standing up for yourself and her babies. I commend HR for her strength to heal and move forward away from a toxic life. Being a single parent with two children is not easy, and when you add the monstrous crime family Wagners into the equation … well, we see how that worked out.


IMO, the murders were about control and not SA. IMO, AW claim of SA is VERY questionable.

 

[Myland]

Jmo I feel there were more guns taken if three went. I know only three used but wouldn’t a person want a backup? Especially if one had a homemade silencer on it. Was the sks for Jake in addition to the 1911? Jmo they didn’t know for sure how it was all going to down at crs and f. If the sks messed up someone was left without a gun. Jmo

 

[Pru2U]

If Angela is still to testify, maybe that's when we learn about Billy's shoes. It's possible that AC is saving that Information for Billy's trial.

Yes. Hopefully AW testimony will shed some light but I also think it’s going to be important to rule Billy’s shoes out since this trial is about George. Either way, I hope there’s more expert testimony coming regarding the footprints.

I figure prosecution has maybe 5-7 more days of testimony before it rests. Time is running out. If they want a conviction, they need to get cracking on firmly placing George right smack in the thick of it.

I know to many of us, convicting George seems like a logical conclusion but there’s been enough doubt raised on this forum for me to reasonably assume the jury will have some of the same questions and doubts. Prosecution needs to firm it up solid this week.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Good morning! Agreed about what you stated, but did the state show GW4 fired a firearm at any of the crime scenes? I must have missed it that... Do you have a link, exception being a tweet. TIA

I don't know that he fired a weapon. Jake's testimony is that George was supposed to fire at CR, Sr. and he froze. So he (George) had a gun but didn't use it in that situation, according to Jake.

In graphic detail, Jake Wagner calmly described how his older brother helped him and their father, Billy Wagner, shoot and kill the eight victim...
He [Jake] said his brother was supposed to shoot Rhoden family patriarch Christopher Rhoden Sr., but froze so Jake Wagner took his brother’s SKS rifle and pulled the trigger. Jake Wagner describes massacre: ‘She looked up and made a gasping noise and then I shot her’

I have my own thoughts (MOO) about George going on this massacre and not firing a weapon, but the state has not demonstrated that he did. And the state doesn't have to. George was there; George was armed; that's Conspiracy, Aggravated Burglary, and Aggravated Murder with addition of having a firearm during these felonies.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Jmo I feel there were more guns taken if three went. I know only three used but wouldn’t a person want a backup? Especially if one had a homemade silencer on it. Was the sks for Jake in addition to the 1911? Jmo they didn’t know for sure how it was all going to down at crs and f. If the sks messed up someone was left without a gun. Jmo

Jake's testimony is that George had the SKS. Jake Wagner describes massacre: ‘She looked up and made a gasping noise and then I shot her’

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Yes. Hopefully AW testimony will shed some light but I also think it’s going to be important to rule Billy’s shoes out since this trial is about George. Either way, I hope there’s more expert testimony coming regarding the footprints.

I figure prosecution has maybe 5-7 more days of testimony before it rests. Time is running out. If they want a conviction, they need to get cracking on firmly placing George right smack in the thick of it.

I know to many of us, convicting George seems like a logical conclusion but there’s been enough doubt raised on this forum for me to reasonably assume the jury will have some of the same questions and doubts. Prosecution needs to firm it up solid this week.

I see what you mean about ruling out Billy's shoes. Might be enough just to know his shoe size if it's in the 13 to 15 range. I hope this is not a thread that AC dropped along the way.

 

[Pru2U]

Is it known if Jake's testimony met all the conditions of his plea agreement?

No, he still has to testify against Billy (if needed) before Jake meets all conditions but we might find out tomorrow whether or not he met them for this trial — if George takes a plea deal and/or if DP is dropped.

 

[CIA Team Member]

Anyone think GWIV will get a plea deal tomorrow morning?

No. IMO, he's in it for the long haul.

 

[Pru2U]

No. IMO, he's in it for the long haul.

I think so too.

 

[CIA Team Member]

Irish wrote:


I think both of these observations are right but we have to look at them through a framework of extreme family dysfunction rather than what normal people would consider a motive for doing something.
*There's a long history of parents committing murder to get custody of children (watch Dateline. It's like a theme on that show.) Some do it because they don't trust the other parent; others do it because they are unwilling to share; still others do it out of spite or revenge. Some may want to reconstitute the family with a new spouse in the old one's place; that is, they see the "spouse" role as a kind of placeholder that can be switched out as desired. What all of these "motives" have in common is gross ENTITLEMENT, the core belief that they can have what they want because the rules for others don't apply to them.
*There's a long history of men, in particular, of murdering intimate partners for daring to leave them (and taking the children). This is a danger that all WSers know, that the most dangerous point in a dysfunctional relationship with an angry man is when the woman tries to leave. We see that clearly in this case when Tabitha and Beth run for their lives (to the point where Tabitha is willing to run from her son, whom she loves).

An armchair shrink with a list of criteria from the DSM-5 could diagnose the Wagner family members as each having "anti-social personality disorder"--a disorder itself, when applied to individuals, that has both genetic and environmental components. We can look to those raised in organized crime families to see the influence of environment. In this case, the cult-like aspect of how this family functioned, along with the parents' anti-social personality disorder explains how these two things collide--how the need to control children in such an enmeshed, dysfunctional family collides with the individual disorders of the individuals. Jake seems to me to be almost a stereotypical example of someone who murders his domestic partner because "if I can't have you, no one can." And Angela--well, the article I'm linking points to women with ASPD as "more likely to...lie frequently, forge someone's signature, and harass, threaten or blackmail someone." And Billy? Look at this list of characteristics of men who have ASPD (I cut the references to reckless driving, etc.)

• do things that could easily hurt themselves or other...
• destroy others’ property
• start a fire on purpose
• make money illegally
• do anything that could lead to arrest
• hit someone hard enough to injure them
• hurt an animal on purpose.

Both Jake and George were raised to be like their father.

I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that we tie ourselves in knots trying to discern motives of people who are not like us in any way. The massacre they committed comes out of both being part of an anti-social crime family and from being themselves individuals who are anti-social and entitled to do whatever they want, regardless of consequences to others. And this is why ordinary families who live together and help each other are not "enmeshed" in this way. It's what separates the Rhodens (in spite of Chris and KR growing weed, etc.) from the Wagners. Chris wasn't a sociopath.

It's correct to say "custody" was at the root of this massacre but not the way we think of custody as "going to court" or fighting over who gets time with a child. It's about the Wagner entitlement to custody, entitlement to control others and total disregard for laws or social norms. I would love to read a true crime book about this case, but more than that I would want a forensic psychologist to lay out this intergenerational abuse of women and children and the impact of family sociopathy. The biggest hurdle for the state is that none of us are equipped with the world experience to understand these freaks.

I found this article among others helpful because it looks at both men and women: Antisocial Personality Disorder | Abnormal Psychology

Most my life I've been intrigued by what makes people tick/think, WHY they do what the do, WHY they think differently than I, HOW you come to a different conclusion, etc., WHY some can't think of consequences for actions.

 

[Chelly]

No, he still has to testify against Billy (if needed) before Jake meets all conditions but we might find out tomorrow whether or not he met them for this trial — if George takes a plea deal and/or if DP is dropped.

Thanks for the update. Trying to keep up, but thread, moving fast.

 

[arielilane]

I don't know that he fired a weapon. Jake's testimony is that George was supposed to fire at CR, Sr. and he froze. So he (George) had a gun but didn't use it in that situation, according to Jake.


I have my own thoughts (MOO) about George going on this massacre and not firing a weapon, but the state has not demonstrated that he did. And the state doesn't have to. George was there; George was armed; that's Conspiracy, Aggravated Burglary, and Aggravated Murder with addition of having a firearm during these felonies.

Thank you for making my point clearly.

 

[CIA Team Member]

I see what you mean about ruling out Billy's shoes. Might be enough just to know his shoe size if it's in the 13 to 15 range. I hope this is not a thread that AC dropped along the way.

FWIW: I dated a guy who was 6'3". He wore a size 11 shoe. He was a bit skinner than Billy, though.

 

[Chelly]

Jake's testimony is that George had the SKS. Jake Wagner describes massacre: ‘She looked up and made a gasping noise and then I shot her’

Jake has no remorse, no shame. He has an overload of pride though.

 

[Myland]

Jake's testimony is that George had the SKS. Jake Wagner describes massacre: ‘She looked up and made a gasping noise and then I shot her’

Jmo I agree but that is according to Jake. In my opinion he had to put George there whether he was there or not to get death penalty taken off. He stated he didn’t want to die. Plus it would be many years in isolation on death row and Jake sure does like to talk and have people look up to him. Pastor Jake that is. Gag!! Jmo