OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #81

[gizmobtj]

Irish wrote:


I think both of these observations are right but we have to look at them through a framework of extreme family dysfunction rather than what normal people would consider a motive for doing something.
*There's a long history of parents committing murder to get custody of children (watch Dateline. It's like a theme on that show.) Some do it because they don't trust the other parent; others do it because they are unwilling to share; still others do it out of spite or revenge. Some may want to reconstitute the family with a new spouse in the old one's place; that is, they see the "spouse" role as a kind of placeholder that can be switched out as desired. What all of these "motives" have in common is gross ENTITLEMENT, the core belief that they can have what they want because the rules for others don't apply to them.
*There's a long history of men, in particular, of murdering intimate partners for daring to leave them (and taking the children). This is a danger that all WSers know, that the most dangerous point in a dysfunctional relationship with an angry man is when the woman tries to leave. We see that clearly in this case when Tabitha and Beth run for their lives (to the point where Tabitha is willing to run from her son, whom she loves).

An armchair shrink with a list of criteria from the DSM-5 could diagnose the Wagner family members as each having "anti-social personality disorder"--a disorder itself, when applied to individuals, that has both genetic and environmental components. We can look to those raised in organized crime families to see the influence of environment. In this case, the cult-like aspect of how this family functioned, along with the parents' anti-social personality disorder explains how these two things collide--how the need to control children in such an enmeshed, dysfunctional family collides with the individual disorders of the individuals. Jake seems to me to be almost a stereotypical example of someone who murders his domestic partner because "if I can't have you, no one can." And Angela--well, the article I'm linking points to women with ASPD as "more likely to...lie frequently, forge someone's signature, and harass, threaten or blackmail someone." And Billy? Look at this list of characteristics of men who have ASPD (I cut the references to reckless driving, etc.)

• do things that could easily hurt themselves or other...
• destroy others’ property
• start a fire on purpose
• make money illegally
• do anything that could lead to arrest
• hit someone hard enough to injure them
• hurt an animal on purpose.

Both Jake and George were raised to be like their father.

I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that we tie ourselves in knots trying to discern motives of people who are not like us in any way. The massacre they committed comes out of both being part of an anti-social crime family and from being themselves individuals who are anti-social and entitled to do whatever they want, regardless of consequences to others. And this is why ordinary families who live together and help each other are not "enmeshed" in this way. It's what separates the Rhodens (in spite of Chris and KR growing weed, etc.) from the Wagners. Chris wasn't a sociopath.

It's correct to say "custody" was at the root of this massacre but not the way we think of custody as "going to court" or fighting over who gets time with a child. It's about the Wagner entitlement to custody, entitlement to control others and total disregard for laws or social norms. I would love to read a true crime book about this case, but more than that I would want a forensic psychologist to lay out this intergenerational abuse of women and children and the impact of family sociopathy. The biggest hurdle for the state is that none of us are equipped with the world experience to understand these freaks.

I found this article among others helpful because it looks at both men and women: Antisocial Personality Disorder | Abnormal Psychology

I've been reluctant to wade into this debate about mental health, but I think it has gotten a bit off kitler. Not every killer is a psychopath or has ASPD and not every psychopath or person with ASPD is a killer.

I think there is a stronger case for Obessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD, not OCD) for AW and JW given the control, the meticulous behavior, the mission oriented nature, the micromanaging of lives, the belief that there way is the right way and the only way, etc. There are lots of ways to get to killing people that don't involve ASPD. Not to say one does not exclude the other, but I dont see the impulsiveness of ASPD. Most clinical researchers now believe personality and personality disorders are on a spectrum, so symptoms of both would be possible but when I look at anything that remotely looks like a motive, I see OCPD. People with OCPD also tend to be super protective of their families because, according to Karen Horny, they Move Toward others for safety.

And one other thing tracks with OCPD -- the confessions. People with Cluster C disorders (Avoidant, Dependent and OCPD) are more likely to confess. And our two confession come from the ones who demonstrate those symptoms.

Also, think of little things. What on Earth does JW get for mouthing "I'm sorry" to the Rhoden family? His sentence can't be reduced. Forgiveness is a pipe dream. No one is going to like him any better or think he is less of a monster. So, what other reason other than remorse? A not-so-bright psychopath might taunt them and attack them and a bright one would likely be vacant. So, what is that if not remorse? Which is another OCPD offender quality.

Homicidal behaviour among people with avoidant, dependent and obsessive-compulsive (cluster C) personality disorder - PubMed

Cluster C personality disorders are rare, but not nonexistent, among homicide offenders. Observed differences in their backgrounds and post-offence behaviours indicate that they may have special needs.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[gizmobtj]

Not a lawyer and cannot see the actual plea deal on paper: BUT
If it has been accurately described: BW and GW4 and their lawyers are in a very strange position....if the W's get convicted at trial, and JW's testimony is considered true by the Prosecution: the worst outcome in terms of sentence is LWOP.
If JW is proven to be lying, that deal comes off the table....That would leave GW4 and by extension BW exposed to the DP. So the only way that GW4 and presumably BW can gain at this stage is to let JW tell the story and then prove that 1) the prosecution has not made a sufficient case to satisfy Reasonable Doubt whether JW has lied, or not; or 2) prove that they are each entirely innocent.

That was a great summary. It sure is an odd position to be in

 

[gizmobtj]

He shouldn't have worried too much... he could have just buried them or sunk them on his/their property. Worried about dirt? Gosh

I think he meant that he was worried about transferring dirt from Peterson Road to the Rhoden properties-- any unique attributes of which might be traced back to Peterson Road

 

[BeckyF]

We (normal thinking people) tend to make things more complicated; things are always very simple. We're trying to understand their way of thinking when we can't. Just like when Leonard stated from day 1 it was over custody. I'm betting we ALL thought "sure, sure." We are incapable of thinking evil and criminal when that's exactly what that family is. They walk among us everyday.
IMO, that's why we're all here on this site. We're desperately seeking a plausible answer to their actions.
JMO

Excellent post!

 

[Niner]

Tuesday, November 1st:
*Trial continues (Day 34) (@ 9am ET) - OH - Pike County 8 people dead: Christopher Rhoden, Sr. (40), his ex-wife, Dana Manley Rhoden (37), their three children, Clarence "Frankie" Rhoden (20), Christopher Jr. (16), Hanna Mae (19); Frankie's fiancée, Hannah Hazel Gilley (20), Christopher Rhoden Sr.'s brother, Kenneth Rhoden (44), & a cousin, Gary Rhoden (37). Hanna Rhoden's baby girl (5 days old), another baby (6 mos.) & a young child (3) were unharmed. (April 21-22, 2016, Pebbles) – for *George Washington Wagner IV (27/now 31) (Jakes’ bro) indicted (11/12/18), arrested (11/13/18), charged (11/15/18) & arraigned (11/28/18) with 8 counts aggravated murder, (plus gun specifications on each), 1 count of 1st degree conspiracy, 4 counts of 1st degree aggravated burglary, 1 count of 5th degree unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance, 3 counts of 3rd degree evidence tampering, 1 count of 5th degree forgery, 1 count of 5th degree unauthorized use of computer or telecommunications, 1 count of 4th degree interception of wire, oral or electronic communication, 1 count of 5th degree obstructing justice, & 1 count of 1st degree engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity. Plead not guilty. Held without bond. DA will seek the DP. Per Jake’s plea agreement, DP is off the table only for Jake if his testimony is truthful. But George still faces the DP as he did not take a deal.
Trial began on 8/29/22 with final jury selection & the jury was seated on 8/30/22. 12 Jurors & 6 alternates. Jury: (9 women & 3 men) & 6 alternates: (5 women & 1 man). 9/30/22: Ill juror replaced with alternate. 12 jurors & 5 alternates. Jury: (9 women & 3 men) & 5 alternates (4 women & 1 man).
Trial began with opening statements began on Monday, 9/12/22. (Trial is scheduled for 8 to 9 weeks (56-63 days).
Added note: Regarding shoe sizes: Jake wore the size 10.5 & George the 11.
Crime info & court hearings from 11/28/18 thru 9/6/22 & Trial Day 1-33 (9/12 to 10/28/22) no court on 10/27/22 reference post #256 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bers-wagner-family-arrested-81.641769/page-13
10/31/22 Docket Update: Journal entry: This cause came on for hearing on 10/28/22; the Court finds & determines that Edward Wagner has not waived the attorney-client privilege & that the oral motion in Limine requested by the defendant is not well taken & the said oral motion is overruled & denied. However, attorneys for defendant shall have the right to continue cross-examination of Edward Wagner, with broad latitude being afforded. The court further finds & determines that the Motion to Quash filed by attorney Gregory Meyers is well taken & same is granted & it is ordered the above-mentioned subpoena duces tecum issued for attorney Meyers on 10/27/22 is quashed. Motion & Order to seal filing (all sealed by Order). Subpoena issued to Silas Wagner by Angela Canepa. Sheriff's return on subpoena-Silas Wagner served on 10/31/22.
10/31/22 Monday, Trial Day 33: State witness: Outside forensic expert Bill Bodziak, called the godfather of shoe print analysis.
For more info see post #275 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bers-wagner-family-arrested-81.641769/page-14
State witness: BCI Special Agent Ryan Schneiderer, lead investigator.
For more info see posts #280 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bers-wagner-family-arrested-81.641769/page-14
State witness: Lt. Ed Schillig, who works for the Franklin County Sheriff’s office dive team. BCI gun expert Matthew White, who will talk about reconstructing the cut-up murder weapons.
For more info see post #298 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bers-wagner-family-arrested-81.641769/page-15
State witness: BCI gun expert Matthew White continued.
For more info see posts #300 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bers-wagner-family-arrested-81.641769/page-15
Trial continues on Tuesday, 11/1/22.

 

[Dudly]

When BCI processed the scene at Chris Sr's home, I don't think he had any guns laying around. He had quite a few locked up in a gun safe, but that was it. Kind of surprised me, but not everyone who lives in the country keeps a gun around all the time.

It was the same with their tox screens. Many assumed that people in the MJ business would be getting high, yet, with the exception of Gary Rhoden, none of the other victims had anything more than caffeine in their systems. No booze, no MJ, no drugs.

One of the Ws may have taken any guns at CRsr’s place. That would have given them something to sell for income…

 

[Betty P]

Not a lawyer and cannot see the actual plea deal on paper: BUT
If it has been accurately described: BW and GW4 and their lawyers are in a very strange position....if the W's get convicted at trial, and JW's testimony is considered true by the Prosecution: the worst outcome in terms of sentence is LWOP.
If JW is proven to be lying, that deal comes off the table....That would leave GW4 and by extension BW exposed to the DP. So the only way that GW4 and presumably BW can gain at this stage is to let JW tell the story and then prove that 1) the prosecution has not made a sufficient case to satisfy Reasonable Doubt whether JW has lied, or not; or 2) prove that they are each entirely innocent.

As long as they are having their case tried in court, Billy and GW4 are still subject to the death penalty. That is why ther are being defended by DP certified attorneys. They lost their option for LWOP when they refused to accept a plea deal under Jakes agreement.

Apologies, but this is a daily misconception perpetuated by a little bad reporting. I wonder if we should post a daily reminder? People will figure it out Insuppose, when one or both defendants end up with a DP sentence.

 

[StrangeOne]

When is AW supposed to testify?

 

[BeckyF]

Do we have a poll started yet? Did Jake tell the truth?

 

[ohioexpat63]

I

Do we have a poll started yet? Did Jake tell the truth?

I think he tried to minimize GW4s involvement so one day 4 would be free. So, it's doubtful he was completely honest in details. If AWs proffer mostly mirrors JWs then It is over for 4 . No get out of jail free card. Jmo

 

[BeckyF]

I

I think he tried to minimize GW4s involvement so one day 4 would be free. So, it's doubtful he was completely honest in details. If AWs proffer mostly mirrors JWs then It is over for 4 . No get out of jail free card. Jmo

Kind of what I thought as well. George IV sure took a huge risk by not taking a plea deal.

 

[Betty P]

When is AW supposed to testify?

Possibly today or later this week?

Here's a good article with a summary of yesterday's testimony

Pike County murder trial: Investigators describe recovering, testing murder weapons

The eighth week of trial for a man accused of killing eight people in Pike County in 2016 began Monday with a focus on shoeprints found at one scene and taped conversations between family members.

www.wcpo.com

Because of this process (hand stippling of texture on molds for soles of shoes), all size 10.5 shoes in that brand would feature the same hand-stamped pattern that would differ from shoes of other sizes within the same brand.

Bodziak compared the hand-crafted pattern on the bottom of the two different sizes to the bloody footprints and found that two of the four prints were made with a size 11 shoe, one was made with a size 10.5 shoe and one print couldn't be determined because it was too distorted. He determined this by creating his own prints with the new shoes he bought and overlaying them onto the prints found in Chris Sr.'s trailer, matching the small textures on the underside of the shoes.

An impression found within Dana's home, on a patch of linoleum floor, couldn't be definitively identified, but Bodziak showed the jury where the small, triangular-shaped texture patters was present among other shoe prints.

 

[Betty P]

Do we have a poll started yet? Did Jake tell the truth?

About what? He's testified about a lot of things during the trial. JMO, he told the truth on most things, but seemed evasive on others. He mentions shooting Chris Sr with the SKS (one shot hit and injured him) and says he heard 2 shots from Billy's gun from inside the trailer. Chris Sr was actually shot 9 times with Billy's gun.

I'm with the theory proposed by someone else here, that Jake actually was standing guard down near Frankie's trailer and didn't hear the shooting. GW3 fired the SKS and Billy, who was inside Chris Sr's trailer, fired the other, fatal shots.

JMO, they will end up with LWOP for all 3 Rhoden men.

 

[BeckyF]

About what? He's testified about a lot of things during the trial. JMO, he told the truth on most things, but seemed evasive on others.

Sorry, I was not specific enough. Specifically about George 4 involvement.

 

[KentuckyMama]

Do we have a poll started yet? Did Jake tell the truth?

I don't think any are capable of telling the whole truth. I think the story they are going with was planned well in advance of them being arrested. The plan was to not be arrested but if they were.....at least one would get out. I don't think for a second that the arrest was a huge surprise. They absolutely knew it was coming. The next best thing is for one part of their monster family to get out. Then on to the rest of the plans they had. They are truly terrible humans.

 

[CIA Team Member]

When is AW supposed to testify?

I've read Wednesday.

 

[iulia]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587419439749890050

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587422068563492865

 

[Dudly]

As long as they are having their case tried in court, Billy and GW4 are still subject to the death penalty. That is why ther are being defended by DP certified attorneys. They lost their option for LWOP when they refused to accept a plea deal under Jakes agreement.

Apologies, but this is a daily misconception perpetuated by a little bad reporting. I wonder if we should post a daily reminder? People will figure it out Insuppose, when one or both defendants end up with a DP sentence.

According to the agreement between Prosecutors and JW, if he testifies truthfully to their liking, there is no DP for GWIII or GWIV. GWIII and GWIV do not have to make a plea agreement to remove the DP specification….

 

[Lonicera]

Do we know if the four defendants have any tests to measure their intelligence?
Have psychiatrists evaluated them? The more I learn about them, the more I find them scary in a way.

 

[CIA Team Member]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587425800755859456

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587426413581373441