OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #83

[justtrish]

well, there we go. Just proved how easy it can be to assume something. I don't mean you, I mean me. For some reason I assumed that was the second print and bloody. I bet it was a muddy print,more than that I will not say. I'm keeping my big mouth shut for the rest of tonight!

I actually assumed it was a bloody print too because the other ones were obviously bloody with all the blood everywhere in that first scene. I had to go look it up myself because it was bothering me that I couldn't remember more about that print. lol It is also possible it isn't mud or dirt, but whatever was left from the blood that didn't leave a noticeable print. Then when dusted with that dust, it showed up when the dust stuck to the (maybe biological matter??) I think similar to how finger prints don't always look noticeable until dust is applied. I am no expert, but this makes sense in my brain I'll update tomorrow once I listen again to that testimony to see if it makes any more sense.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Well of course if they were in blood, but I don't believe anyone intended to leave bloody prints. I think they were concerned with footprints, not bloody footprints. I think blowing off Chris Sr's arm was not in the plan either. I think that wound bled a lot and for whatever reason they decided to move the bodies and that is what lead to stepping in the blood. I think had they left the bodies alone, they likely wouldn't have left the shoe print.

I know Billy is dumb, but is he really dumb enough to think that after putting 8 .40 cal bullets in someone they were not going to bleed?

JMO

 

[BeckyF]

I keep thinking back on the Clutter Family murders, committed Nov 15, 1959 by Perry Smith and Dick Hickok. A family of 4 innocent people murdered by total strangers in a home burglary gone bad. It was the subject of the book and movie “In Cold Blood”.

Police were able to convict Smith and Hickok based on a shoeprint in the victim’s blood and a confession in which Perry Smith accused Hickok of taking part in the shooting. No other evidence connected them to the shooting, yet both eventually confessed, were tried, convicted and executed.

That was sufficient evidence, back when a confession and testimony against an accomplice meant something. All the evidence was circumstantial. The jury wouldn’t have dreamed of setting free killers because they didn’t think a confession and testimony against an accomplice was enough.

Today some folks insist on DNA or nothing, a ridiculously high standard.

Clutter family murders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very good Betty P. And they received the death penalty.

 

[Chris_p_bacon]

I have made an effort to try to keep an open mind & consider other’s opinions since the trial started, or at least the opinions as I have read. Even with all that has been written here throughout the trial, there are things I can’t reconcile, mainly why JW & AW would lie about GW’s involvement; before, during or after.

Some here believe Jake taking DP off his sentence was his motivation to lie about GW however, Jake’s plea was for DP to be taken off for WHOLE FAMILY, not just himself. That tells me ALL 4 were directly involved in at least one phase of before, during & after and JAKE believed there was enough evidence to convict ALL 4. Jake also tried to lessen GW’s involvement. That alone tells me GW was there. Jake knew it, he knew BCI knew it and he knew Prosecution knew it. Jake didn’t sell-out GW. He tried to lessen his involvement.

Some think Angela bargaining for only 30 years was her motivation to throw GW under the bus. That doesn’t make sense to me. The very root off all this evil is Angela’s (Jake’s & George’s) obsession with the custody of the minors.

If George wasn’t involved, I believe with every fiber of my being AW & JW would have exonerated George if he were not present during the murders. They would have been insistent he wasn’t involved at all. The most important thing to them was keeping the minors safe and within the family. Both AW & JW would have wanted George free to take the children.

So it’s actually the plea bargaining that has convinced me George was there.

JMO

Yes. Exactly. Plea Bargains. Plural. Not just one but two. Two proffers from two different people that says there was a murder conspiracy. Two people who were sitting in two different jail cells and the proffers match fairly closely. Elements from both proffers is backed up by the evidence that has been presented.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I don't recall seeing any tweets about it. It's possible he told them and it wasn't reported on. Since it was Jake testifying and he didn't say he moved them, maybe it wasn't asked then.

I wonder if it was because maybe Chris was in the doorway and they didn't want anyone alerted to what happened to them before they finished killing everyone else that night. Maybe just plain panic because they were in the living room bleeding everywhere. It did seem like they were trying to wipe up blood with that rug. Maybe hoping to make it look normal in case someone stopped by there.

Maybe hoping to make it look normal in case someone stopped by there.

Uh yeah. That picture of that living was in no way normal or what you would expect to find in anyone's living room.

JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

IIRC, death penalty for Angela and Jake was only off the table if they testified truthfully? I have seen many comments about them lying, but nothing about whether or not the dp is on or off the table.

 

[FrankieT]

This is such a challenge. We have thought for so long that there is a mountain of clear evidence against all 4 Ws. Now we have been encouraged by the confession of two of them and expected an easy conviction of the last 2. Yet here we are. No one on this forum wants an innocent person to be convicted of a crime. Every one of us wants justice for the Rhoden/Gilley/Manley families.

I'm not a juror, I don't get to hear or see it all. But if I were the one on trial right now I think I would have to speak. I would have to get on the stand and say where I was when it happened. Even if it were just, "I was out with a wh*re," or whatever.( of course he might have to produce the person) Or if just "It was one of those strange nights I went to bed and slept." Of course it is his right to not go to the witness stand, but he's fighting for the rest of his life.

Just my thoughts. What would he have to lose at this time? Unless something happens I think he will be found guilty. And if he is guilty, I hope he stays in jail. Forever.

 

[BeckyF]

IIRC, death penalty for Angela and Jake was only off the table if they testified truthfully? I have seen many comments about them lying, but nothing about whether or not the dp is on or off the table.

There have been many posts about this topic in the last few days.

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe that the prosecution believes, as well as evidence shows, someone else is involved in these killings as well as those charged. Otherwise they would not have indicated a John Doe. That is not done, nor has been done in this district court as a routine. And the excuse that it needed to be done because "if" they find someone later then they would need to have them indicated so time would not run out on being chargeable. But that is not true as murder has no statute of limitations tied to the charge. Of course we will never see that evidence as the prosecution is picking and choosing what to show.

The state showed from the very start to be inadept. They charged FW for lying because she said Ebay instead of Amazon or amazon instead of Ebay over the bullet plate vests. The same vests that had plates dated after the murders were committed. Sloppy work along with other mistakes that have been shown in this trial.

Since the indictment of the Wagners, a number of things have occurred involving the investigators and prosecutors in this case.

Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader was convicted on multiple charges of misusing public funds (theft) and tampering with evidence. Unrelated to this case.

In January 2019, Pike County Prosecutor Rob Junk fired Brian Reader, the brother of the convicted sheriff -- who sat with the prosecution team during at least a couple of Wagner court hearings. Junk did not reveal the reason for firing him.

Michael D. Trout, an employee of the Bureau of Criminal Investigation and identified as a lead investigator in the Pike County mass slaying case was put on paid administrative leave last June for allegations concerning an unrelated matter.

Canepa's son, a habitual violent criminal sent to prison for 18 years in 2003, sent back to prison early this year on new crimes. One has to wonder if that turmoil has affected her work.

This is a death penalty Case with 4 defendants and 8 victims. The State has to cover all their bases, that includes the John Doe just in case. And the statute of limitations does run out on certain charges that a John Doe could be charged with, doesn't mean John Doe is charged with murder. There is no evidence that someone else was in on the murders with the Wagners. The Wagner's didn't seem to take kindly to outsiders, including their own wives.

FW took months and months before turning over her bullet proof vest receipt. The prosecution said they tried to work with her for months on it. They did drop her charges when they couldn't prove their case against her. I admit, not their finest hour.

Reader didn't do the investigation, BCI did. I remember a reporter asking him a specific question about the investigation and Reader said he hadn't even heard of it.

Rob Junk fired Brian Reader because he missed too much work, he was a court investigator. Junk replaced him with a good investigator and if this new investigator did any work on the Rhoden Gilley Case, I'm sure he did just fine.

Trout was kicked out and replaced with Scheiderer who then became lead investigator. Scheiderer had plenty of time to lead the investigation and was able to get enough evidence to arrest the 4 Wagners. Trout caused too much of a hostile work environment.

Canepa's personal life I am sure she puts aside while she is working, just like everyone else has to do when they go to work.

BCI supervisor connected to 2016 Pike County murder investigation suspended

The Ohio Attorney General's Office suspended a state law enforcement supervisor connected with the 2016 Pike County murder investigation in August for creating what investigators called a “hostile” and “toxic” work environment, according to state documents released to WCPO.

www.wcpo.com

For its part, the Ohio Attorney General's Office said the investigation into Trout won't affect the case against the Wagners.

“Over 30 law enforcement agencies inside Ohio and nearly two dozen law enforcement agencies from 10 different states, along with federal partners and Canadian authorities, assisted with the Pike County investigation. A review of the agent’s work in a different role after the investigation was completed has no bearing on the pending cases brought against the Wagner family,” the AG Office’s statement read.

Pike County prosecutor hires veteran investigator to replace sheriff’s fired brother

Tracy Evans has more than 20 years law enforcement experience

www.fox19.com

 

[MadMcGoo]

MOD REMINDER:

Simply put, this is a trial thread to discuss the trial only. It is not a general discussion thread.

If you have a question, contact a Mod or Admin directly and privately or use the report feature on any post.

Thanks,
Mad

 

[justtrish]

This is such a challenge. We have thought for so long that there is a mountain of clear evidence against all 4 Ws. Now we have been encouraged by the confession of two of them and expected an easy conviction of the last 2. Yet here we are. No one on this forum wants an innocent person to be convicted of a crime. Every one of us wants justice for the Rhoden/Gilley/Manley families.

I'm not a juror, I don't get to hear or see it all. But if I were the one on trial right now I think I would have to speak. I would have to get on the stand and say where I was when it happened. Even if it were just, "I was out with a wh*re," or whatever.( of course he might have to produce the person) Or if just "It was one of those strange nights I went to bed and slept." Of course it is his right to not go to the witness stand, but he's fighting for the rest of his life.

Just my thoughts. What would he have to lose at this time? Unless something happens I think he will be found guilty. And if he is guilty, I hope he stays in jail. Forever.

I think they have a mountain of clear evidence against all 4. I hope George does take the stand. I don't think he will.

 

[Betty P]

I believe that the prosecution believes, as well as evidence shows, someone else is involved in these killings as well as those charged. Otherwise they would not have indicated a John Doe. That is not done, nor has been done in this district court as a routine. And the excuse that it needed to be done because "if" they find someone later then they would need to have them indicated so time would not run out on being chargeable. But that is not true as murder has no statute of limitations tied to the charge. Of course we will never see that evidence as the prosecution is picking and choosing what to show.

The state showed from the very start to be inadept. They charged FW for lying because she said Ebay instead of Amazon or amazon instead of Ebay over the bullet plate vests. The same vests that had plates dated after the murders were committed. Sloppy work along with other mistakes that have been shown in this trial.

Since the indictment of the Wagners, a number of things have occurred involving the investigators and prosecutors in this case.

Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader was convicted on multiple charges of misusing public funds (theft) and tampering with evidence. Unrelated to this case.

In January 2019, Pike County Prosecutor Rob Junk fired Brian Reader, the brother of the convicted sheriff -- who sat with the prosecution team during at least a couple of Wagner court hearings. Junk did not reveal the reason for firing him.

Michael D. Trout, an employee of the Bureau of Criminal Investigation and identified as a lead investigator in the Pike County mass slaying case was put on paid administrative leave last June for allegations concerning an unrelated matter.

<modsnip: sleuthing people not involved in this case>

You're correct. None of that is in any way related to prosecution of the Wagner killers.

 

[justtrish]

@Cool Cats I know they dropped those charges against FW without prejudice which means they can refile. She was the one being evasive and could have cleared it up easily and quickly if she wanted to. I don't see her as the poor old lady who didn't know where she bought something. I mean those purchases are odd and then to be so unsure where you bought that much bullet proof stuff.. $1,000's worth for a son that is in his 40s? I think they wanted to make sure she wasn't involved and maybe they are still unsure of what she actually knew and when.

 

[Betty P]

I know Billy is dumb, but is he really dumb enough to think that after putting 8 .40 cal bullets in someone they were not going to bleed?

JMO

It was also dark inside the crime scene. Billy, George and Jake were in a hurry to get things cleaned up and to leave. They were also still panicked because these were the first murders of the night, their spree.

They probably didn't notice they were tracking blood around. Jake and George wouldn't have cared because they knew they were using the "decoy" shoes, so prints wouldn't be linked to them, but to Leonard Manley. Well at least that was their plan. it didn't work, though. JMO

ETA: For those asking why Jake and George decided to move the bodies of Chris, Sr and Gary to the back room, it's assumed they didn't want anyone who dropped by to realize there had been a murder. The killers had 3 more homes to visit and murder their sleeping occupants. Two of those residences were also on Union Hill Rd. They didn't need police swarming around their first crime scene while they were in the midst of killing other Rhodens in their homes down the road.

That's the theory, anyway. If Jake discussed it during his testimony, I don't recall it being reported in the news media.

 

[Myland]

Jmo approximately 5 1/2 hours from first shot to walking in the Peterson house. Cr approx 11 pm and Angela said they walked in at 4:30am, from what I have read and heard. I wonder how much time they really spent at each house.

 

[silenced]

Jmo approximately 5 1/2 hours from first shot to walking in the Peterson house. Cr approx 11 pm and Angela said they walked in at 4:30am, from what I have read and heard. I wonder how much time they really spent at each house.

Do we really rely on the time AW said they returned? She testified that she had taken something and went to sleep. Did JW even go to sleep if he was up and in the barn burning and burying evidence when George got up?

Something is not right.

ETA: George needs to take the stand

 

[Myland]

Do we really rely on the time AW said they returned? She testified that she had taken something and went to sleep. Did JW even go to sleep if he was up and in the barn burning and burying evidence when George got up?

Something is not right.

ETA: George needs to take the stand

Jmo I don’t know how she was able to sleep that night even with being medicated. For me it would need to be some powerful pills.

I would like to see him take the stand and tell his side.

 

[silenced]

Jmo I don’t know how she was able to sleep that night even with being medicated. For me it would need to be some powerful pills.

She wasn't asleep. MOO

Anyone remember what time George was up and in the barn the next day? (later than JW which was unusual- according to testimony) Would he really have been able to go to bed and not help JW destroy evidence?

 

[Betty P]

She wasn't asleep. MOO

Anyone remember what time George was up and in the barn the next day? (later than JW which was unusual- according to testimony) Would he really have been able to go to bed and not help JW destroy evidence?

There were burner phones in use that night, too.

 

[Tena]

So just thinking ahead...if J and A are lying, how are they to be believed testifying at BWs trial? All the same evidence, same proffers. What new evidence is going to put BW there..this is really scary that that man could walk away from these horrendous crimes. I don't believe Jake and Angela are lying to take George and Billy down with them. There may be discrepancies in their stories but they know who was there..I hope and pray justice is served.