OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#40

[Trudie]

IANAL, but it looks like the “pattern of corrupt activity “ need be nothing more than committing at least 2 felonies per Lawriter - ORC - 2923.31 Corrupt activity definitions. by the “enterprise” which can be 2 or more people from my understanding of the statute. The links below may shed more light on the subject.

ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY: STATE RICO CHARGES BECOME MORE PREVALENT IN OHIO


Supreme Court Interprets Elements Needed to Prove Corrupt Activity

I agree. All actions listed are “corrupt”.
There’s more than one interpretation, IMO

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I found this editorial this morning while cuddling with my dogs. It’s very cold here and I’m waiting for pain control this morning. It is worth the time to read although 4 weeks have passed since written.

The Perils of Ingratitude -- A Thanksgiving Admonition, by Armstrong Williams

 

[Betty P]

In layman's terms CRSR possibly owed BW3 a dope debt? Its cliche, but I cant think of anything else that would fit the bill. I wonder if LE uncovered evidence of the Rs owing the Ws? Am I way off base here?

I still think if anyone owed a debt, it was Wagners owing it to CR1 or KR. The latter 2 had income and jobs, the other family didn't. Could have been one of the reasons money was thrown at KR - a way of saying "here's the money you wanted me to pay back". I also still suspect they stole money from CR1, possibly KR, too.

 

[Betty P]

As for Count 22, the pattern of corrupt activity, the following offenses are listed under that count in the indictments:

Aggravated murder
Aggravated burglary
Unlawful possession of dangerous ordinance
Tampering with evidence
Obstructing justice

JMO, they're charging that the family/killers worked and planned together to commit these crimes, so are considered to be a criminal enterprise. It's just adding another layer of punishment for those crimes. I don't think it has to involve any kind of financial enterprise or business activity, legal or illegal. JMO.

 

[Trudie]

As for Count 22, the pattern of corrupt activity, the following offenses are listed under that count in the indictments:

Aggravated murder
Aggravated burglary
Unlawful possession of dangerous ordinance
Tampering with evidence
Obstructing justice

JMO, they're charging that the family/killers worked and planned together to commit these crimes, so are considered to be a criminal enterprise. It's just adding another layer of punishment for those crimes. I don't think it has to involve any kind of financial enterprise or business activity, legal or illegal. JMO.

“..........but not limited to”.

I think prosecutors need present only minimal facts to get an indictment. Just what they think it takes to get what they want. Plus, if they don’t get an indictment, additional info can be presented to the next GJ.
They can also continue to stack charges on, on & on, if there’s evidence. The indictment does not mean the listed charges are it. Jmo
Wonder if defense has the GJ transcripts yet......

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I still think if anyone owed a debt, it was Wagners owing it to CR1 or KR. The latter 2 had income and jobs, the other family didn't. Could have been one of the reasons money was thrown at KR - a way of saying "here's the money you wanted me to pay back". I also still suspect they stole money from CR1, possibly KR, too.

I agree with this. We know the W’s appeared to be struggling financially after the murders, as they couldn’t and didn’t pay the contracter for the new barn that was built on Peterson road, just weeks after the murders. That contractor slapped a lien on the property that had to be paid upon sale of the house. Combine that with AW’s vigorous sm activity beginning in mid to late summer 2016 where she was selling everything she possibly could-cars, pigs, household items...everything but the kitchen sink, and the picture seems quite clear, at least to me, that the W’s were BROKE. That’s all JMO.

ETA-let us not forget JW’s . I don’t recall how much he raised in that campaign but it was a chunk of change. The goal was set at $20k when he started it.

 

[Betty P]

“..........but not limited to”.

I think prosecutors need present only minimal facts to get an indictment. Just what they think it takes to get what they want.

I see your point, but am wondering about whether the pattern of corrupt activity charges have to apply to other specific criminal charges in the indictment. IOW, I don't think they can charge them with pattern of corrupt activity unless it's linked to a specific criminal charge. If the wording "..but not limited to" is relevant here, it would still have to refer to one of the other criminal charges listed in the indictments.

For example, I don't think they could charge them with pattern of corrupt activity for drug trafficking, fraud, etc., unless that charge was listed separately in the indictment. But they could later apply it to some of the other charges like forgery or unauthorized use of property that are listed in the indictments. IANAL, though so I could be wrong.

When DeWine mentioned an undercurrent of illegal drug activity in the press conference, I got the impression that they weren't interested in pursuing prosecution of those activities right now. Again, just my hunch.

ETA: I agree with you, though, that there may be other charges they're considering for the future. Most definitely have a feeling that's the case. Could be they're holding off on those to get some witness participation. If some drug activity was involved, there may be others in their circle of friends who were part of that, but who are now helping prosecutors on the murder, etc. charges.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I see your point, but am wondering about whether the pattern of corrupt activity charges have to apply to other specific criminal charges in the indictment. IOW, I don't think they can charge them with pattern of corrupt activity unless it's linked to a specific criminal charge. If the wording "..but not limited to" is relevant here, it would still have to refer to one of the other criminal charges listed in the indictments.

For example, I don't think they could charge them with pattern of corrupt activity for drug trafficking, fraud, etc., unless that charge was listed separately in the indictment. But they could later apply it to some of the other charges like forgery or unauthorized use of property that are listed in the indictments. IANAL, though so I could be wrong.

When DeWine mentioned an undercurrent of illegal drug activity in the press conference, I got the impression that they weren't interested in pursuing prosecution of those activities right now. Again, just my hunch.

Could a pattern of corrupt activity relate to the premeditation? From hacking social media accounts, gaining access to victim’s phones prior to the murders, counter surveillance, studying and learning the victims habits and schedules including where they all slept, and conspiring together for months and months to murders 8 people in their homes while they slept? Would that be considered a pattern of corrupt activity? Or am I overthinking it?

It seems that 4 adults conspiring together to commit mass murder could be considered a pattern of corrupt activity as they repeatedly continued to interact and plan together. The W’s essentially made themselves an enterprise for murder. JMO.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I still think if anyone owed a debt, it was Wagners owing it to CR1 or KR. The latter 2 had income and jobs, the other family didn't. Could have been one of the reasons money was thrown at KR - a way of saying "here's the money you wanted me to pay back". I also still suspect they stole money from CR1, possibly KR, too.

I strongly suspect that money was a good part of the motive. The body of CRSR was moved because he was taken to the safe or hiding place of the stash and possibly beaten until he did or didn’t give the stash or the combo to the safe. He was killed at the stash site and moved back to the trailer. All my opinion. I believe it might have been 1/3 of the major motives;

1. & 2. Equally. Custody and a great deal of $$$ the Rhodens had on hand hidden. If the monitoring was as thorough as suggested it not only provided family movement patterns, it also gave the Waggies the day CRSR would have been paid for the last harvest.

3. Jealousy- I think the Waggies were livid over the fact that Dana had a nice trailer though used that she had been painting and remodeling.

It would have negated the one issue to get custody and that was living conditions. And remember one or more of those trailers was treated for bed bug infestation and I don’t believe it would have been Dana and where Hanna called home.

 

[Betty P]

Could a pattern of corrupt activity relate to the premeditation? From hacking social media accounts, gaining access to victim’s phones prior to the murders, counter surveillance, studying and learning the victims habits and schedules including where they all slept, and conspiring together for months and months to murders 8 people in their homes while they slept? Would that be considered a pattern of corrupt activity? Or am I overthinking it?

It seems that 4 adults conspiring together to commit mass murder could be consider a pattern of corrupt activity as they repeatedly continued to interact and plan together. The W’s essentially made themselves an enterprise for murder. JMO.

Most definitely. The premeditation, planning, surveillance, hacking, purchasing of weapons, equipment, supplies, etc. will all help meet the definition of pattern of corrupt activity. The meetings, hatching of escape plans and attacks against DeWine and Reader, etc. Same kind of stuff they use to go after Mafia and other organized crime groups. JMO.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Most definitely. The premeditation, planning, surveillance, hacking, purchasing of weapons, equipment, supplies, etc. will all help meet the definition of pattern of corrupt activity. The meetings, hatching of escape plans and attacks against DeWine and Reader, etc. Same kind of stuff they use to go after Mafia and other organized crime groups. JMO.

Honestly, the first comparison that popped on my head with my reply was the mafia, but I didn’t type it haha. Yes, that’s exactly what those charges remind me of. IANAL, so of course I can’t be sure, but I see the premeditation along with it being a group of 4 (or maybe 6 w/the grandmothers) as the W’s making themselves an organized group of hitmen. No different than the mafia, except the mafia is much larger and widespread.

 

[Betty P]

“..........but not limited to”.

I think prosecutors need present only minimal facts to get an indictment. Just what they think it takes to get what they want. Plus, if they don’t get an indictment, additional info can be presented to the next GJ.
They can also continue to stack charges on, on & on, if there’s evidence. The indictment does not mean the listed charges are it. Jmo
Wonder if defense has the GJ transcripts yet......

Trudie, on second reading of AW's Count 22, you are correct. It does state that the pattern of corrupt activity charge is not limited to the charges listed in Counts 1 through 21. My bad. That is interesting. Technically, that gives them an opening to add other charges to the indictments that would also be covered by Count 22. Could be that was just the GJ giving them some leeway (back in August 2018) in case Junk and DeWine wanted to add more charges before the trials begin.

Since arraignment has been completed for all of the W's, is it possible prosecutors will add more charges at this stage of the game? IDK. IANAL. They probably are holding other charges and evidence in reserve in the event any of them are found not guilty. JMO, as much as I hate to say it, that's still a possibility. Juries can do crazy things.

ETA: I also think the defense attorneys are going to unleash quite a few "red herrings" in this trial to confuse jurors. They'll also try to trash the victims and make it appear they had many enemies who wanted to kill them.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I see your point, but am wondering about whether the pattern of corrupt activity charges have to apply to other specific criminal charges in the indictment. IOW, I don't think they can charge them with pattern of corrupt activity unless it's linked to a specific criminal charge. If the wording "..but not limited to" is relevant here, it would still have to refer to one of the other criminal charges listed in the indictments.

For example, I don't think they could charge them with pattern of corrupt activity for drug trafficking, fraud, etc., unless that charge was listed separately in the indictment. But they could later apply it to some of the other charges like forgery or unauthorized use of property that are listed in the indictments. IANAL, though so I could be wrong.

When DeWine mentioned an undercurrent of illegal drug activity in the press conference, I got the impression that they weren't interested in pursuing prosecution of those activities right now. Again, just my hunch.

ETA: I agree with you, though, that there may be other charges they're considering for the future. Most definitely have a feeling that's the case. Could be they're holding off on those to get some witness participation. If some drug activity was involved, there may be others in their circle of friends who were part of that, but who are now helping prosecutors on the murder, etc. charges.

I just read both the Ohio and SCOTUS ruling on this issue.

In my own opinion

A group of people who discuss/plan.

Simply because the rulings/definitions arose as a result of a criminal decision appeal, it’s not a stretch to assume the courts referred to criminal activity. I am leaving the general interpretation to each poster.

Now there’s no mention of common issue and I might not be spot on because I put it in my very simple words. The application is up to each as we read it.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Trudie, on second reading of AW's Count 22, you are correct. It does state that the pattern of corrupt activity charge is not limited to the charges listed in Counts 1 through 21. My bad. That is interesting. Technically, that gives them an opening to add other charges to the indictments that would also be covered by Count 22. Could be that was just the GJ giving them some leeway (back in August 2018) in case Junk and DeWine wanted to add more charges before the trials begin.

Since arraignment has been completed for all of the W's, is it possible prosecutors will add more charges at this stage of the game? IDK. IANAL. They probably are holding other charges and evidence in reserve in the event any of them are found not guilty. JMO, as much as I hate to say it, that's still a possibility. Juries can do crazy things.

I don’t know because of the way I interpret double jeopardy. It’s difficult to explain. And is related to the primary charges. But as a stretch of myopinion the feds might have something in their back pocket.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Could a pattern of corrupt activity relate to the premeditation? From hacking social media accounts, gaining access to victim’s phones prior to the murders, counter surveillance, studying and learning the victims habits and schedules including where they all slept, and conspiring together for months and months to murders 8 people in their homes while they slept? Would that be considered a pattern of corrupt activity? Or am I overthinking it?

It seems that 4 adults conspiring together to commit mass murder could be considered a pattern of corrupt activity as they repeatedly continued to interact and plan together. The W’s essentially made themselves an enterprise for murder. JMO.

Imo you’re spot on.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Trudie, on second reading of AW's Count 22, you are correct. It does state that the pattern of corrupt activity charge is not limited to the charges listed in Counts 1 through 21. My bad. That is interesting. Technically, that gives them an opening to add other charges to the indictments that would also be covered by Count 22. Could be that was just the GJ giving them some leeway (back in August 2018) in case Junk and DeWine wanted to add more charges before the trials begin.

Since arraignment has been completed for all of the W's, is it possible prosecutors will add more charges at this stage of the game? IDK. IANAL. They probably are holding other charges and evidence in reserve in the event any of them are found not guilty. JMO, as much as I hate to say it, that's still a possibility. Juries can do crazy things.

ETA: I also think the defense attorneys are going to unleash quite a few "red herrings" in this trial to confuse jurors. They'll also try to trash the victims and make it appear they had many enemies who wanted to kill them.

Question. In Ohio do I remember correctly that certain charges have to go through the Grand Jury Process.

 

[Betty P]

I don’t know because of the way I interpret double jeopardy. It’s difficult to explain. And is related to the primary charges. But as a stretch of myopinion the feds might have something in their back pocket.

Agree. RICO-type laws are more or less a jacked-up version of premeditation. As opposed to double jeopardy, JMO, they're just a mechanism for stacking on extra penalties like DP, LWOP or more prison time. For example, it seems it's possible to be found guilty of a murder charge, but not guilty of the "pattern of corrupt activity" charge but not vice versa. JMO, IANAL.

Yeah, seems likely, too, that feds have something in their back pocket. JMO, DeWine wants to keep them on the bench, though, unless absolutely necessary. He wants to keep control of this investigation and prosecution to avoid any other collateral effects from federal drug and/or money laundering, racketeering, etc. related charges. Those could open a much bigger can of worms, possibly bringing down some powerful people.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

I still think if anyone owed a debt, it was Wagners owing it to CR1 or KR. The latter 2 had income and jobs, the other family didn't. Could have been one of the reasons money was thrown at KR - a way of saying "here's the money you wanted me to pay back". I also still suspect they stole money from CR1, possibly KR, too.

The debt owed could be while Hanna May was with Jake that FW loaned the money to Big Chris for him to buy his equipment.

 

[Betty P]

Question. In Ohio do I remember correctly that certain charges have to go through the Grand Jury Process.

Unlike most states, in Ohio, felony and federal charges require a GJ indictment.

https://www.acluohio.org/ohio-grand-juries-faq

Q: Is the grand jury process different from state to state?

ANSWER ↕

A: Very. Among states, the use of grand juries varies widely. While all states in the U.S. currently have provisions for grand juries, only about half of the states actually employ them. Only 22 states require their use, to varying extents. In Ohio, felony charges require a grand jury indictment, as do federal charges.

The modern trend is to use a preliminary hearing before a trial court judge, rather than grand jury, which allows both the prosecutor and defense attorney to make their case.

Many feel Ohio's GJ system needs major reform.

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

Perhaps, the Ws went to the well too many times, and suddenly the well was going
dry. To constantly fund a project, one wants to see results.

GWW, Jr was dying. The principals were changing. The future was in the next
generation. Insurance proceeds were welcomed, but possibility had strings
attached.

The next step is in the hands of the judge.That is the purpose of pre-trials. A
dismissal of the charges against any of the four defendants would certainty cause
confusion. JMO