OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[rsd1200]

I've been reading up on the Golden State Killer aka EAR/ONS over the last several days. There was a lot of very good analysis of the rapes and murders he committed over the years. As with the Rhoden killers, he was a guy who spent years perfecting his ability to spy on his victims, then creep in on them late at night, while they were asleep, in the dark. He learned how to gain entry, then surprise and gain control of at least 2 victims (sometimes more) before raping and or killing them. He learned how to avoid leaving any evidence behind and escape the crime scene in a way that he wasn't noticed and couldn't be tracked very far. He usually took his weapon away from the scene and disposed of them, never to be found by LE.

He was able to develop these skills because he was in LE (he knew what evidence they looked for, how they profiled the attacker and how to track him). Even with practice and skill, he made mistakes, victims got away, crimes were aborted. It takes an incredible amount of planning and work to pull off a crime like this without losing control of the situation, especially when multiple people are in the residence. It's pretty amazing he did this for years, but remember, he was committing the rapes on a periodic basis. His murders were spaced 5 months apart on average. Trying to commit them too frequently would lead to mistakes and getting caught.

Now imagine the skill involved in planning and executing the murders of 8 people in 4 different locations in one night, in the space of a few hours at best. That's highly unusual, operating at a high level of both skill, mental focus, discipline, planning and physical endurance. Its not the same as walking into a room, mowing down a crowd of people, then escaping. It's stalking, approaching, gaining entry, subduing dogs, finding victims quickly (in some cases fighting and subduing them), killing them (in the dark), cleaning up the crime scene, checking for cops, then escaping only to drive down the road and do it again, and again, and again. All without making a mistake or alerting witnesses who could call police.

No, I don't think people who have no experience at this level of criminal activity could have pulled this off. I don't care how many deer or squirrels they may have killed in the woods. Wild game doesn't live in houses, with guns nearby and cell phones they can use to call 911. They don't fight back or try to take your gun away from you.

The Rhoden murders were a master class in pre-planned executions. That 2 yrs later there have been no arrests if more confirmation. There's no way a bunch of meth-ed up local yokels pulled this off. No one is that lucky. CR1 would have killed or seriously wounded them when he fought them at his trailer.

Here are some links to the Quester Files - a web site by a guy who examines a lot of cold cases. These links are to his analysis of the GSK, how he staked out victims, approached them, etc. It's a lot of work. How do a bunch of young or middle aged rednecks pull off 4 of these in 1 night without getting hurt or caught for 2 years?

http://www.thequesterfiles.com/murder_1___2_--_manning-offerm.html

http://www.thequesterfiles.com/murder_3___4_--_lyman___charle.html

I was thinking of sitting down and analyzing the crime at each Rhoden crime scene. Step by step. We've done some of this before here and there. Doing it can tell us something about the killers. Anyone want to volunteer to go to UHR to photograph scenes, exit routes, etc.? Well?

ETA: I could be wrong on this, but if it's the local gentry, who trained them to do this? Law enforcement tactics, learning multiple ways of hindering investigations, etc. are not something you learn on You Tube. I think some of the locals knew it was going down that night, most likely JW. If JM was involved, it was someone telling him something different was happening that night. He was the patsy.

BBM
That's what hunters do. Humans are just another animal. With the right patience, planning, perseverance, willpower, and hate, folks can do a lot of things. If the Ws were trying to look poor, they weren't succeeding. They just had no skills at making money, but they had a lot of skill at spending it. They bored with a big auger but nothing to back it up.

Look at CR1, though. He was buying up land, putting trailers on it, and improving the properties, renting them out, he just didn't mind the clutter at his place on UHR. Had a big ole safe in the business trailer. Was buying and selling cars, selling them at a local car lot, paid $30k cash toward DR's home, was tossing his hat into some sort of other businesses, and had lots of extra cash for their favorite pastime.

They were derby folks and car folks, and he and FR didn't mind the clutter. You can look at the old shots of Left Fork, before they lived there, during, and after. Same thing with cars. Junk cars doesn't necessarily denote poverty. I'm sure they weren't smokin rich, but they were doin' okay. Used to be a guy down the road that had hundreds of cars on his property. That's what he liked. He sold parts and worked on them.

The Ws just didn't seem to be able to have any success at anything. They seemed to have no business sense. JW got his cdl in 2011 and hardly made enough to pay his truck payments from what I've read. I think the house was in the boys' names b/c his parents likely had run out their credit. Just a guess there. That doesn't mean they couldn't use their hunting sense/skills though. Boar hunting is an adrenaline packed hunt, lots of prep, and it is not for the weak, nor the faint of heart. They take place, usually, at night, and can be in not the greatest of terrain. They can be dangerous too. I'd not dismiss well trained hunters.

As for the locations, I didn't go down UHR as I didn't have time, but I was on the Appalachian Hwy (32) and went right past UHR. The terrain is rugged, and at night, it is much like it is here, in the mountains, you don't see a lot of folks on that highway. There's a rest stop not far after you pass UHR and we did stop there. No one there. Those parkways are usually vacant at night. At least they are here and so are the side roads. My kid hit a deer about 10 minutes from their home, and it took nearly two hours for LE to show up. There's not large numbers of LEOs either. They needed a police report for insurance. It was a large buck, so it did a lot of damage. Jumped right up onto the side, and onto the hood. No one was hurt, but the deer did not survive.

 

[rsd1200]

Snipped for focus


I agree these murders took extensive planning. However, I don’t believe murdering them all in one night would have taken extensive skill, for a couple reasons. 1) It happened. And over 2 years later, the murders are still unsolved. 2) 3 of the 4 locations were extremely close together. 3) the locations are extremely rural, without street lights, little traffic (from my understanding), and part of a culture where neighbors out in the country mind their own business.

I don’t believe it takes much skill to ambush trailers on large wooded lots in the pitch dark of night. CRsr’s home and even FR’s, both had an unbelievable amount of clutter surrounding them that would have provided many locations for people to hide in the darkness.



I agree, skill and mental focus were definitely needed to commit this crime. However, the skill could have been based on using simple blindsided betrayal by someone the family would have never expected. Mental focus is easy to achieve if someone has enough anger, hate, and determination inside of them. Is it possible this mental focus was something that was slowly built over a period of years, until it finally erupted?

What types of things leads to such anger, hate, and pure evil?


As far as killing them in the dark, what we don’t know is-did the killer(s) flip on light switches when they walked in bedrooms? Or perhaps they had headlamps and lasers on their guns? We do know CR & GR were probably awake or perhaps CR’s dogs started barking (waking him and GR) and he, himself let the dogs outside before he was ambushed? I tend to lean towards the former, those two men were awake. Or maybe the murder(er) was already inside CR’s home with him and GR. Someone he at least semi trusted and would never have expected to ambush and murder him and his entire family.

I tend to believe escaping down the road would have been difficult IF these homes were in a city setting. But again, being so rural, it made it that much easier for whoever did this to go unnoticed. As most small towns go, LE doesn’t tend to patrol the outskirts and country roads as frequently as they do the main roads.



It’s true wild game doesn’t live in houses, BUT It seems it would be easier to kill wild game if they were in captivity versus running wild. Walk into a deer farm, you’ll see a whole herd of deer in their fenced grazing enclosure, but if you walk out into the wild, you’ll be lucky to see one. Hunting requires extreme skill and patience.



Absolutely 100% these murders were pre planned executions. But, meth. Woah. Meth is a powerful drug. It makes people do some insane stuff. I don’t believe CRsr has the opportunity to kill or wound the murderer(s). My best guess is he was caught off guard by someone he trusted and wasn’t able to get to his own weapons in order to defend himself.

Speaking of lucky, I’ve been researching the probability of coincidences. Partly because I struggle with accepting that there were so many coincidences surrounding these murders and also because it’s my opinion that LE finds all the coincidences puzzling as well.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...incidence/201705/synchronicity-statistics?amp

https://understandinguncertainty.org/node/129

A couple links on probability and coincidences.


All 4 houses were supposed to or did have house guests that night.
MG was supposed to spend the night with HHG, but instead didn’t make the turn onto UHR and went home and slept in her own bed.
KR2 was supposed to spend the night with HMR, but took a last minute babysitting job and her bf had a toothache.
DS was supposed to spend the night with KR to go to a car audition the next morning. He didn’t stay the night and also didn’t go over the next morning to go to the car auction.
GR was staying with CRsr.

Then there’s JW, who dyed his hair. BJM who just happened to have two friends with her the morning she discovered 4 bodies. The entire W family who didn’t attend one funeral and then packed up an moved 4000 miles away. There’s more, but I’m trying not to ramble.




I’m happy to help analyze. A few things we could start with are the murder weapon(s)-were they weapons of opportunity such as a knife laying on the counter? No, the weapons were guns and definitely not a weapon of opportunity.

Another thing to consider is that BJM stated she lifted a blanket off of CRsr. A victim being covered by the perpetrator(s) is typically a sign of remorse, shame, or guilt. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/disturbed/201110/profiling-murderer?amp

Sparing young children and animals could be an indication that the killer(s) has a soft spot for kids and animals. Or perhaps, young children and animals were spared because they can’t talk.

These are all just my thoughts and opinions mixed with some research, but both my head and my heart tell me the Rhoden’s and Hannah Gilley were not killed because of some type of organized crime.

I agree with much of what you wrote.

One thing about the covering of CR1 and putting them in the bedroom that I've been pondering on;

Whoever did this, knew, that BJM would be there that morning, early. They had some sort of pity on her, and locked the doors, maybe not knowing about the hidden key. BJM, unlike a lot of folks, including her brother, and trained in emergency medical, nephew, unlocked the doors, sees a bloodbath in the den, and drag marks, and rolls right up in there, shouting for them! Were the killers trying to spare her by moving them and locking the door? But it didn't work? She then runs next door for help and finds another bloodbath. Grabs those babies and packs them out of there. Can you imagine what she looks like when LE gets there?! Honestly, family is usually the first to be questioned, and she's standing there covered in blood, with two folks who don't even want their names to be given out (although most everyone knows who they are at this juncture), and probably are trying to just go home and out of the spotlight. She's all up in both crime scenes. footprints, hand prints, dna. I mean, on one hand, DANG, she did what two men couldn't, she went in to check on her people, to see if anyone was alive, but that put her all up in the scenes, but, if I were her, I'd hope that I'd go in and get those babies too.

I think that CR1 possibly let them in or they were already inside, too. Same with KR, and DR. With FR and HHG, I think they may have found an outdoor key, or had a gotten a key, from a turncoat relative, or some other way. Maybe they already had one. The Rs were fighters. Whoever did this, at least one, knew them, and knew how to get them.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Did you also find it odd that BJM had two friends with her that early in the morning? I guess for me that’s something that’s considered outside of the “norm”. Maybe I wouldn’t find it odd had it been late morning, say after 10am, but 7 am is early (atleast in my world because I’m not a morning person). JMHO

I did find it odd that they were with her at all. LM stated that she had been going there every single day to feed the chickens and dogs. I found that an extremely odd statement since HHG did not work and throwing out some dog feed and chicken feed wouldn't be so hard that you would need to hire someone to do it for you. No heavy lifting involved and the R's didn't seem like lazy people or people that were so affluent that they hired people to do small odd jobs. In other words they didn't seem like the kind of people who hired a maid to come in daily. That part struck me as very odd. For that matter CR1 and FR or GR could have all poured out some dog feed and threw a bit of feed to the chickens.

It all just seems off to me. If it were me I would have hired my DIL-to-be to do it so as to provide her and my son with a little extra money.

I have often thought there was a much closer relationship between CR1 and BJM than between DR and BJM.

JMO

 

[MittenScarpetta]

RSBM

Hi Mittens,

Some interesting theories.

WRT ease of invading homes at night in a rural area, the killings at the trailers of CR1 and FR were somewhat difficult. The homes were close enough that any ruckus caused would have awakened people in the other trailer. The Rhodens were already on high alert, per previous reports. Had someone heard something, they would have responded, quickly. In addition, both of those trailers are fairly close to UHR. Anyone driving by (including LE on patrol) could have seen or heard something.

Yes, CR & FR’s homes were close, however that doesn’t mean they necessarily would’ve heard anything. I actually thought about this the other day when something crazy happened in front of my home. I live in a nice subdivision, in a nice town. Drugs have became a problem in this town, as most other towns across the country. Anyways, there was a drug turf war that started about 1/8th of a mile from my home between two dealers who aren’t from around here. The gunfire ended two doors down from me. There was a car riddled with bullets, houses near where the shooting started riddled with bullets and I didn’t hear a thing. Mind you, I can hear my neighbors entire lives if the windows are open, so I was very shocked when I realized I never heard upwards of 20 gunshots being fired wildly.

The problem is there’s so much we don’t know that we cannot make definitive guesses about certain things. Had anyone been drinking that night, thus making them sleep a little sounder than usual? Were there TVs and fans going that helped muffle any outside noise? Clearly, HHG had to be semi awake, as she was said to have been breastfeeding. If she heard something, perhaps it didn’t startle her or it wasn’t something she thought to be concerned about.

Covering victims with a blanket - Its true, that is often the sign of a killer knowing their victim. It's possible one or two locals were along for this killing spree. It could also have been done to keep anyone peeping through the door to check on them from seeing the victims - buying time to finish the job and get away. Other times, killers have covered their victims to prevent getting blood spatter on themselves.

BJM stayed on her 911 call and was quoted in articles that she had to walk to the bedroom and it looked like someone has drug them down the hallway (not exact words) which leads me to believe the killers weren’t worried about anyone seeing bodies. There was a bullet hole in the window as well as the window being open. I don’t know about covering a body to prevent blood spatter, but if that was the reasoning, why wasn’t GR covered? BJM only mentioned CR1. I suppose the blanket could’ve been covering both of them considering we were told how they were found in relation to each other.

As for planning, yes, people could sit down and plan something like this. The problem is dealing with unplanned situations - and there were likely quite a few in this murder spree. Ask any LEO and they will tell you that killers who are enraged will make mistakes. It makes you behave impulsively and recklessly, unless you have a lot of experience at what you're doing.

I wholeheartedly believe there were mistakes made and right now it’s just a waiting game in order to secure a conviction.

CR1 and Gary may have been awake and caught off guard, but more likely they were asleep. According to LE, the victims were killed in their sleep. Killers aren't usually going to vary their MO, especially in a 1 night spree. JMO, they waited until everyone was asleep, lights out. It would be easier to do so. CR1 was badly beaten, so unless he was tied up, he fought back. JMO, any DNA they retrieved from the perps was most likely found at CR1's trailer, where one of the killers was likely wounded - whether a bloody nose or scratched by CR1 as he struggled.

JMO, if they were torturing CR1 to get information, how did they keep from raising the alarm at FR's?

I’m not sure, could they have told him if he didn’t shut up, they’d kill his entire family? Perhaps, put more fear in him so he was quiet and holding on to hope? Or, maybe they could have put a gag in his mouth? I don’t know the answers, but there are many many possible scenarios.

As for people who said they were supposed to be at one of the crime scenes, I've never put a lot of importance in that. People say those kinds of things after a catastrophic event (a plane crash, etc) , fearing how close they could have been to getting killed. If they were in any way involved in the murders, they wouldn't have drawn suspicion to themselves by sharing it in the news media. Seems they would have kept that information secret if they were involved.

I have to respectfully disagree. I understand your point but it’s just way too convenient that, that many people didn’t stick to their original plans. I don’t believe it means they’re involved, I just don’t know what it means.

I'm not an expert on guns, but the idea of laser lights on guns and night vision goggles were ideas discussed here early on. I'm assuming these things are easy to access, but would require some skill in using them in confined spaces. Killers would also have to be very aware of the location of their accomplices to make sure they're not getting hit by a stray bullet. I can imagine shooting off guns multiple times in small rooms is very risky. Is it also possible they wore some kind of body armor? We've also discussed the possibility they were dressed to look like LE, maybe in tactical gear. All of that would fit. They were also probably wearing ski masks or whatever. Perhaps that's how they knew FR's little boy wouldn't recognize them.

I’m not an expert on guns either, but I’m pretty certain that a laser on a gun makes it easier to hit a target and requires less skill for a shooter ....

We also wondered about how deaf the killers would be after shooting guns indoors so many times. Even with noise suppressors, it seems their ears would still be ringing like mad after the first 2 murders.

I’d bet they had problems hearing for a couple days, unless they wore earplugs but even then..

 

[RAISINISBACK]

You know for some reason I don't think many neighbors or other's involved with this case had any trouble staying up all night. Where you see early morning to some that's just part of the night before. Also with mj there, maybe people needed their "fix" early in the morning, like other's have to have their coffee.

Hubby and i are some of those bed at dark up before daylight people. Our day usually begins at 5 AM so I didn't find the time too odd. I just found the fact that she took two people with her to feed dogs and chickens odd. I also found it odd that she was hired to feed the dogs and chickens in the first place given that HHG did not work and was home all day.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

I agree. What you are describing is something that took some time to do which is why I don't buy into the theory of coming in the "back way" with ATVs. Much faster to go on the road with a car.

I've also never bought into the idea that the Wagners did it or even knew about it and it sure wasn't about custody. IMO

I also think that KR was the unwitting patsy.

We differ on my last two points. You're on the Wagner's and JM are involved side and I'm not. But that's certainly okay.

The Ws are on my radar, just b/c of the very public searches. They did not do that with the other locations they searched. The Ws still aren't in my top two theories though, however, I've been wrong before, it's quite possible it could happen again. I have had the same thoughts about KR.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I did find it odd that they were with her at all. LM stated that she had been going there every single day to feed the chickens and dogs. I found that an extremely odd statement since HHG did not work and throwing out some dog feed and chicken feed wouldn't be so hard that you would need to hire someone to do it for you. No heavy lifting involved and the R's didn't seem like lazy people or people that were so affluent that they hired people to do small odd jobs. In other words they didn't seem like the kind of people who hired a maid to come in daily. That part struck me as very odd. For that matter CR1 and FR or GR could have all poured out some dog feed and threw a bit of feed to the chickens.

It all just seems off to me. If it were me I would have hired my DIL-to-be to do it so as to provide her and my son with a little extra money.

I have often thought there was a much closer relationship between CR1 and BJM than between DR and BJM.

JMO

I absolutely agree 100% with all of the above and I’ve wondered a lot about that triangle-CR-BJM-DR.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I agree with much of what you wrote.

One thing about the covering of CR1 and putting them in the bedroom that I've been pondering on;

Whoever did this, knew, that BJM would be there that morning, early. They had some sort of pity on her, and locked the doors, maybe not knowing about the hidden key. BJM, unlike a lot of folks, including her brother, and trained in emergency medical, nephew, unlocked the doors, sees a bloodbath in the den, and drag marks, and rolls right up in there, shouting for them! Were the killers trying to spare her by moving them and locking the door? But it didn't work? She then runs next door for help and finds another bloodbath. Grabs those babies and packs them out of there. Can you imagine what she looks like when LE gets there?! Honestly, family is usually the first to be questioned, and she's standing there covered in blood, with two folks who don't even want their names to be given out (although most everyone knows who they are at this juncture), and probably are trying to just go home and out of the spotlight. She's all up in both crime scenes. footprints, hand prints, dna. I mean, on one hand, DANG, she did what two men couldn't, she went in to check on her people, to see if anyone was alive, but that put her all up in the scenes, but, if I were her, I'd hope that I'd go in and get those babies too.

I think that CR1 possibly let them in or they were already inside, too. Same with KR, and DR. With FR and HHG, I think they may have found an outdoor key, or had a gotten a key, from a turncoat relative, or some other way. Maybe they already had one. The Rs were fighters. Whoever did this, at least one, knew them, and knew how to get them.

I’m telling ya...if any case I’ve ever followed through the years deserves a book, movie, and mini series-it’s this one. While my heart breaks for the absolute massacre that took place, my brain sometimes still cannot believe the surrounding factors, like your description of BJM above. I’d like to think I’d go in to get the babies as well, but I truly think as soon as I opened a door and saw a blood bath covering the floors, I would have screamed, ran, and drove away. It’s not my place to judge and I really try not to, I guess I just don’t understand some of the thought processes.

I agree that the killers were most likely let in. Statistics point to this being someone the family knew on a personal level of some sort. The people a drug cartel would’ve sent a message to were all murdered, if that makes sense. It’s a double negative and doesn’t “fit”.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I believe anything is possible and wouldn’t be surprised anymore to find out in the future, that is in fact the case. Or at least something very similar. I’m gonna have to do the math on this one (literally) and see if it’s possible to drive round trip to AK in such a short time plus add another 13k-ish miles on top of that. AK to and back would be shy of 9k miles. That leaves 13k more mikes to account for.

I am about 850 miles south of Ohio. It took us 5 full days to drive to AK. That was an average of driving around 12 hours per day and staying the night in a hotel. We drove all over AK too. I think (without asking hubby) that when we left our car had about 5200 miles on it and when we returned it had over 16k on it. It is around 4100 miles to Seward AK from here but we drove all over AK. We were gone 30 days though. It would be hard to do in 12 days. Not impossible though, if you drove straight through 24 hours, switching drivers you could cut the time in half.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I’m telling ya...if any case I’ve ever followed through the years deserves a book, movie, and mini series-it’s this one. While my heart breaks for the absolute massacre that took place, my brain sometimes still cannot believe the surrounding factors, like your description of BJM above. I’d like to think I’d go in to get the babies as well, but I truly think as soon as I opened a door and saw a blood bath covering the floors, I would have screamed, ran, and drove away. It’s not my place to judge and I really try not to, I guess I just don’t understand some of the thought processes.

I agree that the killers were most likely let in. Statistics point to this being someone the family knew on a personal level of some sort. The people a drug cartel would’ve sent a message to were all murdered, if that makes sense. It’s a double negative and doesn’t “fit”.

If the killers were "let in", why were most of the victims found in bed asleep? Did the killers ask to crash on their couch and they went to sleep and left them there? Why would these killers take so much risk at not having the element of surprise? Were they some kind of Ninjas that they could disarm their victims, people who had weapons at the ready? How many times did they have to use those Ninja skills? At least 4 times in an hour or so?

If they felt so safe in tackling and disarming their victims in their own homes, why did they wait until the early hours of the morning to make their attack?

Just some questions.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

The truck changed hands on 8/28/15, 9/9/15, 10/1/15.

The mileage on 8/28/2015 was 197,682

" 9/9/2015 was 220,000

" 10/01/2015 was 220,000

" 02/24/2016 was 222,591

" 03/02/2017 was 227,793

Could it be as simple as someone tried to roll it back, but screwed up and rolled it forward? Not sure about that year but you used to could attach a cordless drill to them and roll them backward, maybe they accidentally reversed the drill, and rolled it forward, and just said screw it and made it a nice even number. Just a thought.

Could it have been sitting at a used car lot between 9/9/2015 and 10/01/2015?

 

[Betty P]

Hubby and i are some of those bed at dark up before daylight people. Our day usually begins at 5 AM so I didn't find the time too odd. I just found the fact that she took two people with her to feed dogs and chickens odd. I also found it odd that she was hired to feed the dogs and chickens in the first place given that HHG did not work and was home all day.

JMO

I think it's been assumed that BJM and friends were working for CR1 to water and tend the plants in the MJ grow op. They're not going to say that on television or in a newspaper interview, though.

No offense intended, but the idea that a middle aged woman with no related background or skills masterminded and carried out the murders of 8 family members in 4 different homes is one of the most ridiculous theories I've ever heard. I'm not sure I understand where something like that comes from and I really don't want to know.

 

[rsd1200]

RSBM

Gonna snip ya'll's conversation down for brevity. Just a couple things I might can help with;
Yes, CR & FR’s homes were close, however that doesn’t mean they necessarily would’ve heard anything.

My nearest neighbor is about the distance between CR1's trailer and FR's (250'). When their grandkids are there playing, now and then, I can I hear laughing or yelling. If they are indoors, we hear nothing. When folks target shoot, outdoors of course, we have a general idea of what direction it is coming from, but we could not tell you what home, what little road, etc... that it's coming from. Folks target shoot and hunt around here so often that it's just another sound. We target shoot too, and you become desensitized to it. Even at night you don't pay any mind to gunshots because sometimes folks are shooting at critters slinking around their cow pastures, or skeet shooting at night (yes, oddly enough, folks skeet shoot at night).

I’m not an expert on guns either, but I’m pretty certain that a laser on a gun makes it easier to hit a target and requires less skill for a shooter ....

I like lasers, I call them "red dots". I have one on my little five round, 38 special, revolver. Yes, they do make it easier to hit your target, and especially in dim areas. The night vision head lamps, well the one that I have, helps your eyes to adjust more quickly to the dark, but they're not really a lamplight. I have three settings and can flick it over to light, super bright, and night vision light.


I’d bet they had problems hearing for a couple days, unless they wore earplugs but even then..

I wear ear gear usually, but, if you get the little yellow mushy plugs, they work just fine (I don't find them comfy though). However, the folks inside the trailers would not have earplugs, and when waking up, from that sound reverberating around those trailer walls, they likely would be hard of hearing, and very confused. They'd also not likely recognize that it was gunshots, immediately, unless they were already awake. I think that CR2 was awake, new something bad was going down, and tried to hide.

 

[Betty P]

Gonna snip ya'll's conversation down for brevity. Just a couple things I might can help with;
Yes, CR & FR’s homes were close, however that doesn’t mean they necessarily would’ve heard anything.

My nearest neighbor is about the distance between CR1's trailer and FR's (250'). When their grandkids are there playing, now and then, I can I hear laughing or yelling. If they are indoors, we hear nothing. When folks target shoot, outdoors of course, we have a general idea of what direction it is coming from, but we could not tell you what home, what little road, etc... that it's coming from. Folks target shoot and hunt around here so often that it's just another sound. We target shoot too, and you become desensitized to it. Even at night you don't pay any mind to gunshots because sometimes folks are shooting at critters slinking around their cow pastures, or skeet shooting at night (yes, oddly enough, folks skeet shoot at night).

I’m not an expert on guns either, but I’m pretty certain that a laser on a gun makes it easier to hit a target and requires less skill for a shooter ....

I like lasers, I call them "red dots". I have one on my little five round, 38 special, revolver. Yes, they do make it easier to hit your target, and especially in dim areas. The night vision head lamps, well the one that I have, helps your eyes to adjust more quickly to the dark, but they're not really a lamplight. I have three settings and can flick it over to light, super bright, and night vision light.


I’d bet they had problems hearing for a couple days, unless they wore earplugs but even then..

I wear ear gear usually, but, if you get the little yellow mushy plugs, they work just fine (I don't find them comfy though). However, the folks inside the trailers would not have earplugs, and when waking up, from that sound reverberating around those trailer walls, they likely would be hard of hearing, and very confused. They'd also not likely recognize that it was gunshots, immediately, unless they were already awake. I think that CR2 was awake, new something bad was going down, and tried to hide.

I wish we had something more than anecdotal evidence to work with. The killers wouldn't have been able to wear ear plugs as they needed to communicate with each other and be able to listen for anyone approaching by car or otherwise. It would have been very disorienting for the killers if they were not trained or had practice to handle it. Does anyone know if BJM had a membership to practice frequently at the local gun range? Did she own a lot of weapons and go on frequent night hunts with the men? How long had she been a skilled night time hunter with jungle skills? /s

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Could it have been sitting at a used car lot between 9/9/2015 and 10/01/2015?

IMO, that’s a very strong possibility. Or maybe a home based salvage yard?

 

[Betty P]

BBM
That's what hunters do. Humans are just another animal. With the right patience, planning, perseverance, willpower, and hate, folks can do a lot of things. If the Ws were trying to look poor, they weren't succeeding. They just had no skills at making money, but they had a lot of skill at spending it. They bored with a big auger but nothing to back it up.

Look at CR1, though. He was buying up land, putting trailers on it, and improving the properties, renting them out, he just didn't mind the clutter at his place on UHR. Had a big ole safe in the business trailer. Was buying and selling cars, selling them at a local car lot, paid $30k cash toward DR's home, was tossing his hat into some sort of other businesses, and had lots of extra cash for their favorite pastime.

They were derby folks and car folks, and he and FR didn't mind the clutter. You can look at the old shots of Left Fork, before they lived there, during, and after. Same thing with cars. Junk cars doesn't necessarily denote poverty. I'm sure they weren't smokin rich, but they were doin' okay. Used to be a guy down the road that had hundreds of cars on his property. That's what he liked. He sold parts and worked on them.

The Ws just didn't seem to be able to have any success at anything. They seemed to have no business sense. JW got his cdl in 2011 and hardly made enough to pay his truck payments from what I've read. I think the house was in the boys' names b/c his parents likely had run out their credit. Just a guess there. That doesn't mean they couldn't use their hunting sense/skills though. Boar hunting is an adrenaline packed hunt, lots of prep, and it is not for the weak, nor the faint of heart. They take place, usually, at night, and can be in not the greatest of terrain. They can be dangerous too. I'd not dismiss well trained hunters.

As for the locations, I didn't go down UHR as I didn't have time, but I was on the Appalachian Hwy (32) and went right past UHR. The terrain is rugged, and at night, it is much like it is here, in the mountains, you don't see a lot of folks on that highway. There's a rest stop not far after you pass UHR and we did stop there. No one there. Those parkways are usually vacant at night. At least they are here and so are the side roads. My kid hit a deer about 10 minutes from their home, and it took nearly two hours for LE to show up. There's not large numbers of LEOs either. They needed a police report for insurance. It was a large buck, so it did a lot of damage. Jumped right up onto the side, and onto the hood. No one was hurt, but the deer did not survive.

I agree with much of what you wrote.

One thing about the covering of CR1 and putting them in the bedroom that I've been pondering on;

Whoever did this, knew, that BJM would be there that morning, early. They had some sort of pity on her, and locked the doors, maybe not knowing about the hidden key. BJM, unlike a lot of folks, including her brother, and trained in emergency medical, nephew, unlocked the doors, sees a bloodbath in the den, and drag marks, and rolls right up in there, shouting for them! Were the killers trying to spare her by moving them and locking the door? But it didn't work? She then runs next door for help and finds another bloodbath. Grabs those babies and packs them out of there. Can you imagine what she looks like when LE gets there?! Honestly, family is usually the first to be questioned, and she's standing there covered in blood, with two folks who don't even want their names to be given out (although most everyone knows who they are at this juncture), and probably are trying to just go home and out of the spotlight. She's all up in both crime scenes. footprints, hand prints, dna. I mean, on one hand, DANG, she did what two men couldn't, she went in to check on her people, to see if anyone was alive, but that put her all up in the scenes, but, if I were her, I'd hope that I'd go in and get those babies too.

I think that CR1 possibly let them in or they were already inside, too. Same with KR, and DR. With FR and HHG, I think they may have found an outdoor key, or had a gotten a key, from a turncoat relative, or some other way. Maybe they already had one. The Rs were fighters. Whoever did this, at least one, knew them, and knew how to get them.

If they all let the perps in themselves at each crime scene, why were most of them asleep in bed when killed? That would have taken the killers a really long time - to enter each home, chat, then wait for the victims to go to bed before killing them. Then leave and repeat the same thing at the next home and the next.

Why would the killers need to do that? It seems very time consuming and extremely risky for zero benefit. Seem it would be much easier and quicker to sneak into the homes to kill them in their sleep instead of going in, exchanging pleasantries and waiting for them to go to bed.

For those of you who suspect BJM of so much, you need to decide if she was a mastermind, triggerperson or just the dupe who was chosen to discover the bodies. I don't think she can be all of those things.

As for the Wagners, I'm sensing a double standard being applied here. Because they weren't wealthy, they're not suspected of dealing drugs or killing the Rhoden family. But because the Rhodens and Manleys were poor, they were suspected of dealing drugs and killing the Rhoden family. Which is it? Poor people are virtuous and incapable of drugs dealing and murder or poor people are terrible people who deal in drugs and murder their families?

 

[MittenScarpetta]

If the killers were "let in", why were most of the victims found in bed asleep? Did the killers ask to crash on their couch and they went to sleep and left them there? Why would these killers take so much risk at not having the element of surprise? Were they some kind of Ninjas that they could disarm their victims, people who had weapons at the ready? How many times did they have to use those Ninja skills? At least 4 times in an hour or so?

If they felt so safe in tackling and disarming their victims in their own homes, why did they wait until the early hours of the morning to make their attack?

Just some questions.

The victims were found in bed, yes. Asleep-no. They were found in bed dead, well some of them were found in bed, and it was said to be thought they were killed in their sleep. If I recall, CR2 was found between his bed and the wall, per LM. CR1 & GR were found on the floor in a bedroom. DR, I recall hearing she had put up a fight and her brother saw her legs when he entered her home. Out of 8, 4 were confirmed found in bed. What we don’t know is, were they made to get in bed? Was HR breastfeeding to soothe her crying baby because there was commotion and chaos? There’s so many unknowns...

And my final opinion, and it’s only an opinion, these ninjas didn’t need the element of surprise because they already had the trust of their victims. I dont know who the ninjas are but if I had to guess they’re not very ninja like in real life. MOO

 

[Betty P]

The victims were found in bed, yes. Asleep-no. They were found in bed dead, well some of them were found in bed, and it was said to be thought they were killed in their sleep. If I recall, CR2 was found between his bed and the wall, per LM. CR1 & GR were found on the floor in a bedroom. DR, I recall hearing she had put up a fight and her brother saw her legs when he entered her home. Out of 8, 4 were confirmed found in bed. What we don’t know is, were they made to get in bed? Was HR breastfeeding to soothe her crying baby because there was commotion and chaos? There’s so many unknowns...

And my final opinion, and it’s only an opinion, these ninjas didn’t need the element of surprise because they already had the trust of their victims. I dont know who the ninjas are but if I had to guess they’re not very ninja like in real life. MOO

Sorry, no. Most of that is rumor, the unfortunate consequence of LE keeping so much information from the public.

Again, why would they go to the trouble of wooing each household to let them in, making small talk then, what, making them get in their night clothes and get into bed so they can shoot them. Most of that time with the lights on so any witness driving by can see their cars out front and the lights on inside? I'll fall back on my usual truism: if the killers were that dumb, they would have been arrested and in jail by now.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Hi Mittens,

Some interesting theories.

WRT ease of invading homes at night in a rural area, the killings at the trailers of CR1 and FR were somewhat difficult. The homes were close enough that any ruckus caused would have awakened people in the other trailer. The Rhodens were already on high alert, per previous reports. Had someone heard something, they would have responded, quickly. In addition, both of those trailers are fairly close to UHR. Anyone driving by (including LE on patrol) could have seen or heard something.

Covering victims with a blanket - Its true, that is often the sign of a killer knowing their victim. It's possible one or two locals were along for this killing spree. It could also have been done to keep anyone peeping through the door to check on them from seeing the victims - buying time to finish the job and get away. Other times, killers have covered their victims to prevent getting blood spatter on themselves.

As for being able to hide behind clutter if detected, that's true if someone is driving by. If they're hiding because they've gotten the victim's attention before entering, that's a problem

As for planning, yes, people could sit down and plan something like this. The problem is dealing with unplanned situations - and there were likely quite a few in this murder spree. Ask any LEO and they will tell you that killers who are enraged will make mistakes. It makes you behave impulsively and recklessly, unless you have a lot of experience at what you're doing.

CR1 and Gary may have been awake and caught off guard, but more likely they were asleep. According to LE, the victims were killed in their sleep. Killers aren't usually going to vary their MO, especially in a 1 night spree. JMO, they waited until everyone was asleep, lights out. It would be easier to do so. CR1 was badly beaten, so unless he was tied up, he fought back. JMO, any DNA they retrieved from the perps was most likely found at CR1's trailer, where one of the killers was likely wounded - whether a bloody nose or scratched by CR1 as he struggled.

JMO, if they were torturing CR1 to get information, how did they keep from raising the alarm at FR's?

As for people who said they were supposed to be at one of the crime scenes, I've never put a lot of importance in that. People say those kinds of things after a catastrophic event (a plane crash, etc) , fearing how close they could have been to getting killed. If they were in any way involved in the murders, they wouldn't have drawn suspicion to themselves by sharing it in the news media. Seems they would have kept that information secret if they were involved.

I'm not an expert on guns, but the idea of laser lights on guns and night vision goggles were ideas discussed here early on. I'm assuming these things are easy to access, but would require some skill in using them in confined spaces. Killers would also have to be very aware of the location of their accomplices to make sure they're not getting hit by a stray bullet. I can imagine shooting off guns multiple times in small rooms is very risky. Is it also possible they wore some kind of body armor? We've also discussed the possibility they were dressed to look like LE, maybe in tactical gear. All of that would fit. They were also probably wearing ski masks or whatever. Perhaps that's how they knew FR's little boy wouldn't recognize them.

We also wondered about how deaf the killers would be after shooting guns indoors so many times. Even with noise suppressors, it seems their ears would still be ringing like mad after the first 2 murders.

I've also wondered if they didn't park their vehicles some distance from the homes and hiked to them through the woods behind their homes. It would be helpful for approaching the homes undetected, but they would need a good escape route if things went wrong on the way out.

But I still think most of the killers were strangers. People close to the family, with no experience in murdering someone in cold blood couldn't have pulled off murders at 4 crime scenes without screwing up, leaving something behind, etc.

ETA: WRT the unusual amount of mileage that was put on JM's truck before he purchased it: I wonder if the previous owner used it for a trip to Mexico or AZ or CA? Those are the established corridors for moving MJ, etc, into Ohio.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/cincinnati/press-releases/2010/ci021710.htm

Betty Hubby uses a Glock 40 for work and has a laser light for it although he does not use the laser at work. He said wherever the red light falls is where the bullet goes. No extra skill needed in confined spaces, in fact a laser makes it much easier to hit what you aim at. He has training though.

Hubby says it is simple to attach and remove, no skill needed for that.

As an aside Betty, Hubby has said from the beginning that former or current LE or military were involved in the crime. I disagree but have often thought about AW being prior military. We have no way of knowing what her job was in the military or if it involved weapons training or attack planning.


JMO

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Sorry, no. Most of that is rumor, the unfortunate consequence of LE keeping so much information from the public.

Again, why would they go to the trouble of wooing each household to let them in, making small talk then, what, making them get in their night clothes and get into bed so they can shoot them. Most of that time with the lights on so any witness driving by can see their cars out front and the lights on inside? I'll fall back on my usual truism: if the killers were that dumb, they would have been arrested and in jail by now.

What’s rumor? I heard LM say where CR2 was found, on a video interview. I read in an article where AM, spoke about JM walking in DR’s. Could you clear up for me what you’re saying is rumor? I’ve honestly never heard about the night clothes.