OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[rsd1200]

I feel like it is just fine with LE that people forget about these victims. The thought of a whole branch in a family being wiped out while most were sleeping boggles the mind. If I were related to these people hell would be raised or so certain people would say. Could they be in fear of the same thing happening? When my aunt and cousin were murdered (the crime is featured in this forum) we were subdued but vocal with each other. We believed one person within the family was the guilty party. The point I am trying to make is maybe they are waiting and watching for someone to mess up.

I feel like I have an insight into this family because I am Appalachian American (okay I used that term to lighten my post). It's a whole different world and unless you are raised up in it you wouldn't understand what I am saying. In all my babbling I think people are waiting to see what happens. Even if they are wrong the remaining family members have an idea of who did it.

Agreed.

 

[rsd1200]

I do think that fear of being next is a part of this. Not so much for themselves, but for their families. Also, LE stated in the beginning that some folks knew stuff, who were right in that church, that day that it happened, they also stated that some might fear coming forward because of some things that they were involved in as well.

A fella who was interviewed, not long after this happened, made a comment early in the investigation; Don't go around bad places and bad things won't happen to you (loosely quoted). When they dropped the bomb about the weed and it being all sophisticated they changed the public's perception. I may not have an issue with folks growing weed but I wouldn't want it to appear that I was hanging out at a place where there were three, so-called, sophisticated, grow ops, and, my friends were victims of a mass murder. Especially if I know it was targeted for a specific reason, and they ain't comin' for me, but if I get all up in it, my family could be next.

How many of us want to post under our real names about who we think did this, why, and go up in person, and start diggin' around Piketon, Camp Creek, Peebles, and across the river in Greenup, and start asking questions? I don't. There's enough s**t that, I keep my nose out of, that goes on in my own little town.

Don't get me wrong, I want this solved, but I can't blame folks for being scared. LE has not offered, that we are aware of, any protection for folks, who come forward. If this was done by family, or extended family, whose to say that they won't kill you, or your 16 y/o kid? They just killed eight of your kin? If it was done by acquaintances, they won't give a flyin' flip about knockin' off 2-3 more. Lots of what look to be, drug related murders, throughout our region, in the last few years. Over weed? Probably not.

 

[Betty P]

I believe there was a mistake in the public perception when it comes to JM going to the grand jury. He never went. If he had went to a grand jury, the state would have had to return an answer of charges or no charges. His case could still be taken to a grand jury at any time. That info was shared yesterday by a former reporter on the case. I can’t link it, but I can quietly tell you where to find it.

Do tell. Please share the link or give a hint. TIA.

We were wondering about this here a few weeks ago. My perception at the time, IIRC, was that Ohio law doesn't require outcomes of GJ testimony to be made public. IANAL, so I could be wrong. They could have made him testify, but delayed filing charges until the GJ hearings for the murders is completed. The charges against JM (destruction of government property, etc.) were relatively minor in the scheme of things. I'll have to go back and look at my old post.

It wouldn't make sense for the prosecutor to not call JM before the GJ unless they were worried about what he might say in testimony, under oath. The way Pike County uses the GJ process is highly unusual.

ETA: I also recall in the hearing when the judge dropped the charges against JM, he specifically stated that JM would have to testify before the GJ.

Charges in Rhoden case dropped, pending grand jury

Case connected to the Pike County massacre to go straight to a grand jury

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Do tell. Please share the link or give a hint. TIA.

We were wondering about this here a few weeks ago. My perception at the time, IIRC, was that Ohio law doesn't require outcomes of GJ testimony to be made public. IANAL, so I could be wrong. They could have made him testify, but delayed filing charges until the GJ hearings for the murders is completed. The charges against JM (destruction of government property, etc.) were relatively minor in the scheme of things. I'll have to go back and look at my old post.

It wouldn't make sense for the prosecutor to not call JM before the GJ unless they were worried about what he might say in testimony, under oath. The way Pike County uses the GJ process is highly unusual.

ETA: I also recall in the hearing when the judge dropped the charges against JM, he specifically stated that JM would have to testify before the GJ.

Charges in Rhoden case dropped, pending grand jury

Case connected to the Pike County massacre to go straight to a grand jury

I’ll quietly show you where to find it because I cannot break TOS and discuss groups on social media. The author of this article, who is a member of a group, stated (not on this forum) how it played out yesterday and what didn’t happened after the charges were dismissed at a municipal level and bound over for a grand jury. Emphasis was put on the comments by JM’s attorney in the article below.

"They don't want their witnesses cross-examined at this point,'' said Bougler of Chillicothe. "This was an unsuccessful strategy to put pressure on him."

Boulger said if the grand jury indicts his client, he then will start the discovery process -- which would likely force the state to unseal the warrant and the affidavit related to the tracking device.

"The affidavit is where the juice is,'' Boulger said. "They have done all of this behind closed doors.'"

Pike County judge: Evidence tampering charge to be heard by grand jury

 

[MittenScarpetta]

So has anyone heard of this case?

UPDATE - Sheriff: Triple homicide persons of interest from out of state

3 victims, 1 found in the home strangled and 2 found in the yard . The suspect is believed to be from out of state.

 

[Betty P]

I’ll quietly show you where to find it because I cannot break TOS and discuss groups on social media. The author of this article, who is a member of a group, stated (not on this forum) how it played out yesterday and what didn’t happened after the charges were dismissed at a municipal level and bound over for a grand jury. Emphasis was put on the comments by JM’s attorney in the article below.






Pike County judge: Evidence tampering charge to be heard by grand jury

I understand what the reporter is saying, but my theory has been that these GJ proceedings, as conducted in Pike County, really have no time limit. It's possible they can bring in witnesses, make them testify and delay voting on bill/no bill indefinitely. Also, until they bring charges, the prosecutor doesn't have to reveal any evidence to the defense attorney. Pike Co seems to have done this with quite a few drug related cases in the past.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I understand what the reporter is saying, but my theory has been that these GJ proceedings, as conducted in Pike County, really have no time limit. It's possible they can bring in witnesses, make them testify and delay voting on bill/no bill indefinitely. Also, until they bring charges, the prosecutor doesn't have to reveal any evidence to the defense attorney. Pike Co seems to have done this with quite a few drug related cases in the past.

I agree 100%. I was just saying as far as what anyone can verify up until now, JM has not went before the GJ. I’m just taking a guess, but I don’t imagine he will and IF he does, it will be after someone is arrested for the murders because Junk absolutely does not want the discovery and affadavits unsealed of what warranted the GPS. JM is essentially a sitting duck, indefinitely.

 

[rsd1200]

So has anyone heard of this case?

UPDATE - Sheriff: Triple homicide persons of interest from out of state

3 victims, 1 found in the home strangled and 2 found in the yard . The suspect is believed to be from out of state.

The female has a record, which includes, at one point, the mfg of a substance that is getting folks in a whole buncha sad circumstances lately. Some folks geeked out on that stuff don't even remember killing folks, or swear it was done in self-defense (they get super paranoid, and start having hallucinations, after a week, or more, of no sleep), or that there were leprechauns, who did it, and they managed to escape. Something about the folks from Indiana... I'm thinking they're probably from just across the bridge if they're from IN. If they're locked up, then were they locked up, at the time of the murders? If not, then the mother seems to know who these Indiana folks are. This case and others like it, are why I keep going back to something a lot deeper than custody.

Bittner's mother says the family's home was ransacked. Bittner's brother, Ronald Gardner, says his sister, her husband and his nephew were also tortured.

No arrests one month after Whitley Co. triple murder

A family that had been through a lot, but remained strong in lending a helping hand to one another was the overarching description of the Williamsburg family of three who was found dead on Wednesday afternoon at their residence.

Triple homicide victims remembered as close-knit family

Faulkner said in the call: “I walked in and there was a plastic bag wrapped around her head and she was laying in the floor.” The dispatcher questions Faulkner about the bag later in the conversation.

“A garbage bag," Faulkner says before continuing on. "I have been having some problems out of some guys in Indiana, but I think that they put them in jail or something. I don’t know.”

911 call in triple homicide indicates ties to Indiana

 

[Betty P]

I agree 100%. I was just saying as far as what anyone can verify up until now, JM has not went before the GJ. I’m just taking a guess, but I don’t imagine he will and IF he does, it will be after someone is arrested for the murders because Junk absolutely does not want the discovery and affadavits unsealed of what warranted the GPS. JM is essentially a sitting duck, indefinitely.

Yep, it may be in limbo forever. It's also for this reason JMO the case is about much more than MJ. That's all Rhoden's were involved in, but their killers were involved in much more and had a lot to lose.

JMO, these folks have figured out how to make this case go cold and stay that way. They might not want to assume it will always remain in cold storage, though.

There's an old expression that says Ohio is the laboratory for bad government. What's developed here is often exported elsewhere.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

The female has a record, which includes, at one point, the mfg of a substance that is getting folks in a whole buncha sad circumstances lately. Some folks geeked out on that stuff don't even remember killing folks, or swear it was done in self-defense (they get super paranoid, and start having hallucinations, after a week, or more, of no sleep), or that there were leprechauns, who did it, and they managed to escape. Something about the folks from Indiana... I'm thinking they're probably from just across the bridge if they're from IN. If they're locked up, then were they locked up, at the time of the murders? If not, then the mother seems to know who these Indiana folks are. This case and others like it, are why I keep going back to something a lot deeper than custody.

Bittner's mother says the family's home was ransacked. Bittner's brother, Ronald Gardner, says his sister, her husband and his nephew were also tortured.

No arrests one month after Whitley Co. triple murder

A family that had been through a lot, but remained strong in lending a helping hand to one another was the overarching description of the Williamsburg family of three who was found dead on Wednesday afternoon at their residence.

Triple homicide victims remembered as close-knit family

Faulkner said in the call: “I walked in and there was a plastic bag wrapped around her head and she was laying in the floor.” The dispatcher questions Faulkner about the bag later in the conversation.

“A garbage bag," Faulkner says before continuing on. "I have been having some problems out of some guys in Indiana, but I think that they put them in jail or something. I don’t know.”

911 call in triple homicide indicates ties to Indiana

We need a thread on this. I’ve never started one but I can try. LOL I just can’t promise it will go smoothly.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Yep, it may be in limbo forever. It's also for this reason JMO the case is about much more than MJ. That's all Rhoden's were involved in, but their killers were involved in much more and had a lot to lose.

JMO, these folks have figured out how to make this case go cold and stay that way. They might not want to assume it will always remain in cold storage, though.

There's an old expression that says Ohio is the laboratory for bad government. What's developed here is often exported elsewhere.

That expression is facts. Living just outside OH, I’ve personally seen the trickle down effect as it spreads across state lines.

 

[Betty P]

We need a thread on this. I’ve never started one but I can try. LOL I just can’t promise it will go smoothly.

There is a thread here at WS

KY - Three Family Members Found Strangled, Williamsburg, 13 Sept 2017

I agree with the posters in the thread, strangling seems an unusual way of murdering 3 people in the same house.

 

[Betty P]

That expression is facts. Living just outside OH, I’ve personally seen the trickle down effect as it spreads across state lines.

Well, I hope I'm wrong and that they're just sitting on the Rhoden case while the feds work on bringing down a big group of drug traffickers.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

There is a thread here at WS

KY - Three Family Members Found Strangled, Williamsburg, 13 Sept 2017

I agree with the posters in the thread, strangling seems an unusual way of murdering 3 people in the same house.

Thank you! I’ll get to reading. I couldn’t find it earlier. And yes very unusual way to murder multiple people.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I believe there was a mistake in the public perception when it comes to JM going to the grand jury. He never went. If he had went to a grand jury, the state would have had to return an answer of charges or no charges. His case could still be taken to a grand jury at any time. That info was shared yesterday by a former reporter on the case. I can’t link it, but I can quietly tell you where to find it.

Charges can be held in abeyance pending further action.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Where/how does he share these? JMO, this ties together a big part of my theory about the W family's possible illegal activities.

JMO, the church W's are tied to and the church on their property is also part of this. Who picks up and moves to AK based on their local church moving there? Why did the local church move to AK in the first place? What kind of pastor is so closely involved in the affairs of a family suspected of the murder of 8 people with possible involvement in drug/MJ trafficking?

The church they attend in Kenai has been there a while. It’s a hell and damnation sort if I recall right. Very private suspicious and secretive.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I understand what the reporter is saying, but my theory has been that these GJ proceedings, as conducted in Pike County, really have no time limit. It's possible they can bring in witnesses, make them testify and delay voting on bill/no bill indefinitely. Also, until they bring charges, the prosecutor doesn't have to reveal any evidence to the defense attorney. Pike Co seems to have done this with quite a few drug related cases in the past.

So thinking about this some more. Would it be possible that they brought JM into testify since he was considered a witness? I’m not sure how they would work w/the tampering charge being against him. Since the GPS. Indictment stated he was a witness as a reason for the GPS, I feel like he’s in a catch 22 there. If they supeonoed him to testify as a witness for the GJ, that’s self incriminatory because the GJ charge is against him.

Maybe I’m overthinking this

 

[Betty P]

So thinking about this some more. Would it be possible that they brought JM into testify since he was considered a witness? I’m not sure how they would work w/the tampering charge being against him. Since the GPS. Indictment stated he was a witness as a reason for the GPS, I feel like he’s in a catch 22 there. If they supeonoed him to testify as a witness for the GJ, that’s self incriminatory because the GJ charge is against him.

Maybe I’m overthinking this

That's pretty much how it works. They can call him before a GJ proceeding that is investigating the murders. He would be one of many witnesses. All would be required to answer questions without their attorney present. I could be wrong, but am assuming the prosecutor has been pulling in everyone in the area who knew the Rhodens, hence the many busts for drugs, probation violations, etc.

Once the prosecution has finished calling in witnesses, they can ask the GJ to deliberate to decide whether to indict someone. In a way, it's like a secret, legal fishing expedition. No judge present, they can use evidence not normally admissible in trial, etc.

https://www.acluohio.org/ohio-grand-juries-faq

I recall GJ ' S being used back in th late 60s to bust college kids for smoking MJ. They would just call students in one at a time and make them testify about whether they were doing drugs or knew anyone who used or sold it. Lots of people were indicted this way without ever being caught doing anything wrong by police. All a witness or prosecutor had to say was "I saw Billy smoking weed at a party" and Billy would get called in to testify, usually indicted and had to go to trial. It was bizarre.

Not sure if that's similar to what they're doing in the Rhoden case, but prosecutors have a lot of leeway in GJs, judges and defense attorneys aren't allowed and witnesses are required to answer all questions. About half of US states don't allow them now.

ETA: According to this link, in Ohio, GJS can be used not just to bring charges, but also just to investigate criminal behavior. That's very broad, IMO.

OSBA | How Does a Grand Jury Operate?

Lawriter - ORC

 

[rsd1200]

So thinking about this some more. Would it be possible that they brought JM into testify since he was considered a witness? I’m not sure how they would work w/the tampering charge being against him. Since the GPS. Indictment stated he was a witness as a reason for the GPS, I feel like he’s in a catch 22 there. If they supeonoed him to testify as a witness for the GJ, that’s self incriminatory because the GJ charge is against him.

Maybe I’m overthinking this

That red truck is of interest to them, and I can understand why. I think they might be calling JM a witness, due to him being on the scene that morning, in addition to something they didn't like about his vehicle that day, (I don't think it was about the tags, unless the prior owner was of interest, and/or possibly some of his actions that day).

Installing a gps on a vehicle to monitor the vehicle's movements, is considered a search under the Fourth Amendment. I think they have 10 days to get the unit on the vehicle, from the time of the warrant.

JM is considered a witness. He was charged with tampering and vandalism, which the judge dropped, and handed over to the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury, if they proceed on it, will be pushed to show their hand, by JM's atty.

LM said he thought it was about the 2:00 a.m. text message. I don't know if the text was the reason or not, but if I were LM, I'd have kept that to myself. JM could be called a witness simply by being the first person to walk into the crime scene.

In legal matters, a witness is an individual who has knowledge relevant to the case, but may also be someone who claims to have, or who is thought by others to have, such knowledge. A witness may be sworn under oath to testify to his knowledge and details of the case, including things he has seen, heard, smelled, or touched first hand.

A person who testifies about what someone else told him, or what someone else said, wrote, or did, is referred to as a “hearsay” witness. Hearsay testimony is very limited as to what may be presented in court.

Witness - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes

To get that warrant, to put the gps tracker on the vehicle, a judge has to determine probable cause.

The U.S. Constitution provides that “no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” This means that, before a judge will issue a search warrant, a law enforcement official (officer) must testify under oath to the judge about what evidence the officer has to justify conducting the search - specifically, what the officer is searching for and where the officer thinks it will be found. Before the judge will issue the warrant, the officer’s testimony must be sufficient to convince a “prudent person” that evidence of a crime or illegal items would likely be found in the search.

OSBA | Search Warrants 101

So, it seems, they simply wanted to keep track of where that vehicle was going, for the next 45 days, and delivered good reason to a judge. I wonder if JM was the only person who ever drove that vehicle?

 

[MittenScarpetta]

That's pretty much how it works. They can call him before a GJ proceeding that is investigating the murders. He would be one of many witnesses. All would be required to answer questions without their attorney present. I could be wrong, but am assuming the prosecutor has been pulling in everyone in the area who knew the Rhodens, hence the many busts for drugs, probation violations, etc.

Once the prosecution has finished calling in witnesses, they can ask the GJ to deliberate to decide whether to indict someone. In a way, it's like a secret, legal fishing expedition. No judge present, they can use evidence not normally admissible in trial, etc.

https://www.acluohio.org/ohio-grand-juries-faq

I recall GJ ' S being used back in th late 60s to bust college kids for smoking MJ. They would just call students in one at a time and make them testify about whether they were doing drugs or knew anyone who used or sold it. Lots of people were indicted this way without ever being caught doing anything wrong by police. All a witness or prosecutor had to say was "I saw Billy smoking weed at a party" and Billy would get called in to testify, usually indicted and had to go to trial. It was bizarre.

Not sure if that's similar to what they're doing in the Rhoden case, but prosecutors have a lot of leeway in GJs, judges and defense attorneys aren't allowed and witnesses are required to answer all questions. About half of US states don't allow them now.

ETA: According to this link, in Ohio, GJS can be used not just to bring charges, but also just to investigate criminal behavior. That's very broad, IMO.

OSBA | How Does a Grand Jury Operate?

Lawriter - ORC

That’s very informative. And very interesting. And behind bizarre about the 60’s...over smoking pot of all things. My how times have changed. I know in the Jon Benet case a GJ convened regarding the Ramseys and actually voted to bring charges against them for endangerment of a child that lead to death (might not be exact words but that’s what it meant) and the DA never chose to use the indictment and try them in court.

It does sort of seem like a double negative in James’ case. They absolutely brought the GPS Charges for a reason. Just like the $80,000 bond for a $300 piece of equipment. If the DA was trying to be secretive about their tactics there, it didn’t work. It’s an obvious as the sky is blue what they wanted. But I’m stumped as to why they wanted him.