OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[RAISINISBACK]

That's a big question the news media should be asking- Why is a family that is LE's laser focus on a major murder investigation allowed to keep two young children in their custody? The judge in this case is Robert Rosenberger. Why hasn't he done something? Who is looking out for the welfare of the children while in AK? Why does B's mother have to raise money to contest this in court when the OH AG can do it on his own? DeWine is a powerful person with many friends in high places.

Let's hope the news media starts asking this question.

I must have missed something Betty. Can you link me or bring me up to date quietly? Thank you.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

That red truck is of interest to them, and I can understand why. I think they might be calling JM a witness, due to him being on the scene that morning, in addition to something they didn't like about his vehicle that day, (I don't think it was about the tags, unless the prior owner was of interest, and/or possibly some of his actions that day).

Installing a gps on a vehicle to monitor the vehicle's movements, is considered a search under the Fourth Amendment. I think they have 10 days to get the unit on the vehicle, from the time of the warrant.

JM is considered a witness. He was charged with tampering and vandalism, which the judge dropped, and handed over to the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury, if they proceed on it, will be pushed to show their hand, by JM's atty.

LM said he thought it was about the 2:00 a.m. text message. I don't know if the text was the reason or not, but if I were LM, I'd have kept that to myself. JM could be called a witness simply by being the first person to walk into the crime scene.


Witness - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes

To get that warrant, to put the gps tracker on the vehicle, a judge has to determine probable cause.


OSBA | Search Warrants 101

So, it seems, they simply wanted to keep track of where that vehicle was going, for the next 45 days, and delivered good reason to a judge. I wonder if JM was the only person who ever drove that vehicle?

And I wonder how many other gps units were installed and on whose vehicles? Watch the number of hoods up today

 

[Dudly]

I agree 100%. All 4 kids should have been protected from the start. And the W’s should have been looked at like everyone else, from the start. I’ll never understand why they weren’t. There’s no excuse for it. In any murder investigation, every ex and family member of a victim has to be ruled out. I’m not sure why it was different in Pike County.

If LE based their decision to not look at the W’s because they’re viewed as “good Christians” that’s just a crock of you know what. How many people go to prison and find the Lord? There’s prisons filled with murderers, rapists, and criminals who are born again Christians. I’m not saying the W’s are any of those things, but a lot of people come disguised as a wolf in sheeps clothing. For LE to think any different can’t even be explained as ignorance. It was pure favoritism.

I can say when this is over, no matter if the W’s aren’t involved in any way, I personally will never think they’re good people from all I’ve learned. And I pray that the two minor children in their care will not be in their care forever. And that’s JMO. As far as I can tell, they were never supposed to take the other minor child to Alaska. It doesn’t matter that GW4 was granted custody because the mother still has rights and visitation that’s not being fulfilled. There’s a law and rule in every state pertaining to custody that says the custodial parent cannot move further than x amount of miles away without permission from the non custodial parent and the courts.

To be honest, we do not know how much that LE investigated the W's or how many times they questioned them. I would hope they were thoroughly vetted before allowing them to move. The fact that the Ws were allowed to move makes me think that LE had nothing to keep them from moving...

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Just wondering what everyone else thinks. Would a Jim Jones style cult be "Bigger than a couple of MJ grows and a few stolen cars"? Per Sheriff Reader.

That’s a very rural area which also includes a group of very unfriendly militia people. In 1980 the first weekend up there in addition to having twin bear cubs up our front yard tree, another interesting incident occurred.

Two “neighbors” happened to meet at the intersection of miller Loop and the north road each driving brand new 4wd rigs.

They exchanged fingers, got out of there trucks 44’s drawn and filled each other’s trucks “plum full of holes” by the time troopers arrived they were each waiting beer in hand.

I asked my husband where in the hell we had moved our family? We stuck it out learned the secrets of being Alaskans and made a very good living. Our 2 kids did as well. Best decision we ever made to move and work our butts off. I have a lot of stories.

True story. And not the cherry picked tales Sarah Palin tells.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

To be honest, we do not know how much that LE investigated the W's or how many times they questioned them. I would hope they were thoroughly vetted before allowing them to move. The fact that the Ws were allowed to move makes me think that LE had nothing to keep them from moving...

The Wagner’s were not “allowed” to move. Unless charged with a crime or probation our country is one that allows free movement across state borders. We don’t normakky need permission, a permit or escorts to move freely. And understand this our Alaska State Troopers know right where they are, where each works and all their friends by first name. There are just over 769,000 residents in Alaska. And if you superimpose Alaska over the USA it stretches from the west to east coast. It’s a very small population for the land mass. Everyone knows someone who knows someone you know. The W family is under the watchful eye of LE.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

To be honest, we do not know how much that LE investigated the W's or how many times they questioned them. I would hope they were thoroughly vetted before allowing them to move. The fact that the Ws were allowed to move makes me think that LE had nothing to keep them from moving...

That’s true. I’m not sure you can keep people from moving though, even if you have evidence on them. Unless they’re arrested and charged, they’re free to move wherever they want. Like Betty mentioned, what we didn’t see was DeWine trying to fight custody of S, like he did with the other 3 minors. I think that would have been about the only way they could have stopped them from moving. We also don’t know what the W’s told LE. I wonder if LE was blindsided by their move.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

WRT custody of S, LE had no qualms or problems with initially placing the other surviving children in foster care. JMO, they had the ability to convince a judge to do whatever they wanted in the matter. No local judge was going to question AG Dewine ' s decisions in the matter. His word would prevail, period. Recall, also, how secretive investigators were about the locations of the other 3 children in the months following. To me, this indicates LE were wrongly fixated on the immediate family, as evidenced by many of their other actions and words back then. By the time they figured out the W family were the most likely suspects, they were in a jam. They could have sought to take S from the W family, but for some reason didnt. Instead they were allowed to take S and leave for AK.

Even today, they could retrieve S from the W ' s and bring her back for placement with local family or friends, but they're not doing it. Again, no local judge would refuse DeWine if he made this request.

Bottom line, the W family continues to receive favorable treatment from LE and prosecutors as they did before, despite the laser focus on them. Theyre a family of "good Christians"In this case LE and prosecutors are the dogs that bark, but won't bite.

BBM

I didn't get the impression they were afraid for the children's well being but that they were hiding them to keep them from being kidnapped and stolen away to some place where they would be raised with another identity. Especially in K's case. That is what put me suspicious of JW in the first place. LE hiding the babies and him making that odd statement of "I'm not going to try to take her" even before he knew if K was his. Almost like he was trying to reassure LE that he wasn't going to try to steal her away if he knew where she was.

If anyone wanted to harm those kids, they had ample time to do so the night of the murders. So I feel like Reader wasn't talking about their physical well being when he made the judgement call to keep them concealed, but rather that he knew if certain people knew where they were, then there was a great danger of them being kidnapped, especially K, if she turned out to belong to JW. And that they wouldn't mind killing whoever had them in their custody at that time.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

To be honest, we do not know how much that LE investigated the W's or how many times they questioned them. I would hope they were thoroughly vetted before allowing them to move. The fact that the Ws were allowed to move makes me think that LE had nothing to keep them from moving...

By the way. I had to have permission to take my son at age 9 with me. I also had to pay the $2,000 worth of travel to his fathers twice a year.

45 states do have an agreement if I remember right it’s the interstate compact for child custody and support. It allows for a streamlined process among other things to locate and return to a custodial parent a child removed illegally from anywhere in the us with very little paperwork.

 

[pearl]

On the custody issue of JW and HR's daughter, I have some thoughts. I do not live in Ohio or Alaska but have been a witness to child placement decisions in my state. I think the following is pretty standard in all states. LE cannot legally remove a child from the biological parent; the state's department of child protective services has to do that. When parents are arrested and children are present, LE calls child services to take the children. Since the Ws have not been named as "suspects", there is no way that LE would be involved at all with the children. There was another child present during the crimes that was released to his biological mother. S is with her biological father. The newborn and 6 month old were placed with child protective services because, at that time, both of them did not have a live parent to be placed with. Remember, paternity hadn't been determined for the newborn yet. If and when the Ws are arrested for anything, S will be placed with child services. The only way child services could legally take S before an arrest is if there was proof that she is/was being abused or neglected which I don't think is happening. I could be wrong and have been in the past.
I don't like the current situation with S any more than other posters due to the fact of the "laser focus" on the Ws. I fear for the safety of both W grandchildren during an arrest situation if, in fact, the Ws are arrested.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I agree 100%. All 4 kids should have been protected from the start. And the W’s should have been looked at like everyone else, from the start. I’ll never understand why they weren’t. There’s no excuse for it. In any murder investigation, every ex and family member of a victim has to be ruled out. I’m not sure why it was different in Pike County.

If LE based their decision to not look at the W’s because they’re viewed as “good Christians” that’s just a crock of you know what. How many people go to prison and find the Lord? There’s prisons filled with murderers, rapists, and criminals who are born again Christians. I’m not saying the W’s are any of those things, but a lot of people come disguised as a wolf in sheeps clothing. For LE to think any different can’t even be explained as ignorance. It was pure favoritism.

I can say when this is over, no matter if the W’s aren’t involved in any way, I personally will never think they’re good people from all I’ve learned. And I pray that the two minor children in their care will not be in their care forever. And that’s JMO. As far as I can tell, they were never supposed to take the other minor child to Alaska. It doesn’t matter that GW4 was granted custody because the mother still has rights and visitation that’s not being fulfilled. There’s a law and rule in every state pertaining to custody that says the custodial parent cannot move further than x amount of miles away without permission from the non custodial parent and the courts.

BBM

I think the W's were suspects from the very beginning. I think that is why the children were hidden away.

Keep in mind JW's very strange statement about not trying to take K and his missed it by hours.

They couldn't present enough evidence to take S from her father's custody, but they could present enough doubt about K being his to keep her hidden.

Also keep in mind that B was never hidden but given back to his mother.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

The Wagner’s were not “allowed” to move. Unless charged with a crime or probation our country is one that allows free movement across state borders. We don’t normakky need permission, a permit or escorts to move freely. And understand this our Alaska State Troopers know right where they are, where each works and all their friends by first name. There are just over 769,000 residents in Alaska. And if you superimpose Alaska over the USA it stretches from the west to east coast. It’s a very small population for the land mass. Everyone knows someone who knows someone you know. The W family is under the watchful eye of LE.

I have been to AK and I know you are right. I said early on that the good people of AK have a wary eye on the W's.

The people in AK are very friendly and they ask a lot of questions of strangers. I don't think it is in a suspicious way, but rather just a friendly interest. Like being a new member of a club where everyone else has been a member all their lives. Someone new to talk to and hear new life stories kind of way.

BTW I loved AK and would go back in a heartbeat. But i would not drive across Canada again.

 

[rsd1200]

Yes, I should have clarified. LM is not elderly or old perse, but he is an old 65 if that makes sense. I feel like his body and health is older than his years in age. And JM, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her one time, even in passing on camera, so it’s hard to know the state of her health/mindset.

LM was a tree-feller. Hard work, and he was injured. I guess like mining, it breaks down the body. Lots of folks do hard manual labor, and don't have much healthcare to speak of, and meds are high for ailments. It ages folks. My friend recently died because, basically, he couldn't afford his insulin.

There is a photo of JdyM in this article. She is holding one of the flyers about the murders, with all the victim's pictures.

EXCLUSIVE: 'Ain't got no revenge in our hearts,' Pike Co. family says

 

[rsd1200]

By the way. I had to have permission to take my son at age 9 with me. I also had to pay the $2,000 worth of travel to his fathers twice a year.

45 states do have an agreement if I remember right it’s the interstate compact for child custody and support. It allows for a streamlined process among other things to locate and return to a custodial parent a child removed illegally from anywhere in the us with very little paperwork.

There is even a flyer in our LED / Probation and Parole office that gives a phone number to call to assist in matters of parents taking children too far away, in custodial matters.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

On the custody issue of JW and HR's daughter, I have some thoughts. I do not live in Ohio or Alaska but have been a witness to child placement decisions in my state. I think the following is pretty standard in all states. LE cannot legally remove a child from the biological parent; the state's department of child protective services has to do that. When parents are arrested and children are present, LE calls child services to take the children. Since the Ws have not been named as "suspects", there is no way that LE would be involved at all with the children. There was another child present during the crimes that was released to his biological mother. S is with her biological father. The newborn and 6 month old were placed with child protective services because, at that time, both of them did not have a live parent to be placed with. Remember, paternity hadn't been determined for the newborn yet. If and when the Ws are arrested for anything, S will be placed with child services. The only way child services could legally take S before an arrest is if there was proof that she is/was being abused or neglected which I don't think is happening. I could be wrong and have been in the past.
I don't like the current situation with S any more than other posters due to the fact of the "laser focus" on the Ws. I fear for the safety of both W grandchildren during an arrest situation if, in fact, the Ws are arrested.

2

1. LE can remove minors on an emergency basis or to place in protective custody.

2 Alaska and Ohio are signatory to interstate compacts which is common laws and agreements for a large amount of children’s issues.

3. If LE THE COURTS OR THE IFFICE IF CHILDRENS SERVICES THAT A CHILD IS IN IMMINENT DANGER OF HARM BY ANY SOURCE IT IS THE DUTY OF LE TO TAKE EMERGENCY POSESSION OF THAT CHILD AND TAKE STEPS NECESSARY FOR PROTECTION. THE ONLY EXCEPTION AND NIT BY MU

I have been to AK and I know you are right. I said early on that the good people of AK have a wary eye on the W's.

The people in AK are very friendly and they ask a lot of questions of strangers. I don't think it is in a suspicious way, but rather just a friendly interest. Like being a new member of a club where everyone else has been a member all their lives. Someone new to talk to and hear new life stories kind of way.

BTW I loved AK and would go back in a heartbeat. But i would not drive across Canada again.

I did the 4,500 miles once but commuted twice a year from Kenai to Juneau in January and May for my job. 968 land miles then 4.5 hours in a ferry. But I never regret staying up there. Once accepted and with hard work the rewards are incredible. I finally left to find hot weather due to my back. It can be tough.

 

[rsd1200]

2

1. LE can remove minors on an emergency basis or to place in protective custody.

2 Alaska and Ohio are signatory to interstate compacts which is common laws and agreements for a large amount of children’s issues.

3. If LE THE COURTS OR THE IFFICE IF CHILDRENS SERVICES THAT A CHILD IS IN IMMINENT DANGER OF HARM BY ANY SOURCE IT IS THE DUTY OF LE TO TAKE EMERGENCY POSESSION OF THAT CHILD AND TAKE STEPS NECESSARY FOR PROTECTION. THE ONLY EXCEPTION AND NIT BY MU



I did the 4,500 miles once but commuted twice a year from Kenai to Juneau in January and May for my job. 968 land miles then 4.5 hours in a ferry. But I never regret staying up there. Once accepted and with hard work the rewards are incredible. I finally left to find hot weather due to my back. It can be tough.

BBM
Agreed, LE are required to remove a child(ren), as they are many times first on the scene, where children are in need of being removed, but, upon removal, they have to call their state's equivalent, of my state's CPS (child protection services). A child welfare worker will come, retrieve the child(ren), and find emergency foster placement, until a family member can be located, who can take the child(ren), and is deemed suitable to take the children. Their goal is reunification but that's not always possible, in some cases. When reunification is not possible, they stay in a variety of foster homes, until they age out at 18, or, in some cases, if the children are infants to around age 5-6, they might get adopted.

Doctors can also make the call. They can hinder someone from leaving with a child, and call CPS/LE to come, while the parent and child are in the office. Same with school systems. They must report any signs of abuse, or neglect.

 

[Betty P]

BBM

I think the W's were suspects from the very beginning. I think that is why the children were hidden away.

Keep in mind JW's very strange statement about not trying to take K and his missed it by hours.

They couldn't present enough evidence to take S from her father's custody, but they could present enough doubt about K being his to keep her hidden.

Also keep in mind that B was never hidden but given back to his mother.

JMO

But if JW was under suspicion for the murders early on, why was he given permanent custody of S in the first place? That was the first mistake. Even if LE didn't have enough evidence to charge him, LE had enough probable cause to delay granting him custody of S. They certainly were able to provide enough probable cause to temporarily place the other children in foster care, locations hidden from the public.

If, as we're speculating, the other child was hidden to avoid the possibility of kidnapping, why would the court proceed to allow a subject of the murder investigation to have permanent custody of S?

 

[Betty P]

I must have missed something Betty. Can you link me or bring me up to date quietly? Thank you.

Re JW getting custody of S, it was in the news. He was allowed to take her to AK.

Rhoden case: 'Hate seeing my daughter cry'

DeWine stated last year the Wagner family was in theiron laser focus in the murder investigation

Pike County murders: Ohio AG touts ‘laser’ focus on Alaska family

The rest is simple logic - why give someone permanent custody of a child when LE is focused on them being involved in the murder of that child's family?

 

[rsd1200]

But if JW was under suspicion for the murders early on, why was he given permanent custody of S in the first place? That was the first mistake. Even if LE didn't have enough evidence to charge him, LE had enough probable cause to delay granting him custody of S. They certainly were able to provide enough probable cause to temporarily place the other children in foster care, locations hidden from the public.

If, as we're speculating, the other child was hidden to avoid the possibility of kidnapping, why would the court proceed to allow a subject of the murder investigation to have permanent custody of S?

Check out the Sievers case and the custody case there. They were on that pretty early. The mil and sil finally won custody of the girls, but it was no short process, and I think there's some things that still haven't been completely settled.

 

[Satchie]

Re JW getting custody of S, it was in the news. He was allowed to take her to AK.

Rhoden case: 'Hate seeing my daughter cry'

DeWine stated last year the Wagner family was in theiron laser focus in the murder investigation

Pike County murders: Ohio AG touts ‘laser’ focus on Alaska family

The rest is simple logic - why give someone permanent custody of a child when LE is focused on them being involved in the murder of that child's family?

I think when a parent dies, the remaining biological parent has custody if he wants it. It doesn't go through the courts, no questions are asked. Families are sacred: it's not up to police or the courts to decide what happens to children, unless there is a dispute between parents, or proof of serious neglect or abuse. It doesn't matter if you're a suspect in a murder case, that doesn't negate your rights as a parent to bring up your own child.

 

[rsd1200]

I think when a parent dies, the remaining biological parent has custody if he wants it. It doesn't go through the courts, no questions are asked. Families are sacred: it's not up to police or the courts to decide what happens to children, unless there is a dispute between parents, or proof of serious neglect or abuse. It doesn't matter if you're a suspect in a murder case, that doesn't negate your rights as a parent to bring up your own child.

I agree, and, JW has actually never been named a suspect.

Edit: He may have had some court proceedings, since they were unmarried, to name him as bio dad if they never signed that special form. Most don't. If they didn't, then, he had no rights according to Ohio custody laws. Most folks don't realize that there can be problems when you don't formalize paternity, if you are unwed.