OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[OkieGranny]

Okay, let's not leap to conclusions about the teeth.

This is the best summary of info I could find on teeth missing from skeletal remains. I should include a *mildly graphic* warning here. Case histories, diagrams, and two black and white photos.

Scattered Skeletal Human Remains: Search Strategy Considerations for Locating Missing Teeth

With the disappearance of the surrounding soft tissue and the periodontal ligament, teeth commonly become disassociated from their alveoli. This is true for single-rooted teeth such as incisors and canines, but also holds for immature molars and premolars, and when the roots of multi-rooted teeth are not sufficiently splayed to lock them into their sockets.

When teeth aren't found with skeletal remains, it's usually because the officials working the scene didn't properly screen the soil in the vicinity.

 

[Mitch1]

Wouldn't it be just as easy to bury them as pull their teeth? It is highly unlikely they would have been found if buried.

You read my mind!!

I thought that as well, since they live out in the middle of nowhere.
I grew up in a horribly rural area where we often burned the leaves that we had raked up and I remember sometimes there would be a funky smell in the air and if you looked up and off into the distance you could see a few small streams of smoke and you just kinda knew someone was burning their garbage, which was also acceptable. So I wouldn't think burning things would draw attention

My only tiny reservation on that is if they had a burn ban or something in effect. Also, I would think pulling their teeth would have taken some time and would have made quite a mess and may have left their jaws with some evidence of trauma especially if they were being careless and just ripping/tearing them out-they don't come out easily. OR, maybe these individuals (I have said this before) where murdered of course somewhere else buried in a shallow grave and dug up once skeletonized, removed (causing some teeth to have been left at the original site) dumped in the woods where even more teeth were lost.

Because some teeth did remain in the adult jaws, I think these remains likely belong to homeless or meth addict and likely died there-thats just me though

ETA: HAha, I just realized you said bury not burn-I agree with that one too and unless I was moving, I certainly wouldn't dig them up and take them to another location, especially since they hadn't been found

 

[TooCurious]

Okiegranny,
I think the last sentence says it all! The teeth are somewhere, if not found in that area then this is another clue of a body dump. Albeit, a lengthy time between death and dump. I am still of the opinion the area was not thoroughly searched for the teeth or a murder weapon. Where are the shoes? Granted the outside portion should rot but the rubber on the soles should still be there. Did they say the found 1 shoe?

 

[OkieGranny]

Okiegranny,
I think the last sentence says it all! The teeth are somewhere, if not found in that area then this is another clue of a body dump. Albeit, a lengthy time between death and dump. I am still of the opinion the area was not thoroughly searched for the teeth or a murder weapon. Where are the shoes? Granted the outside portion should rot but the rubber on the soles should still be there. Did they say the found 1 shoe?

This article says "shoes" were found, and bits of clothing. I don't know anything more than that.

http://newsok.com/jamison-family-was-threatened-by-relative-before-vanishing-records-show/article/3909260

I wonder if they used a metal detector to search the location. Would that be standard procedure in a situation like this, or just a maybe/maybe not kind of deal?

 

[TooCurious]

I must have missed that article, thanks.
I would hope they used a metal detector but it would not surpise me if they didn't. Where is the link to to the report that was referenced in the story? I would like those coordinates since it is "official".

 

[Mapman]

It's my understanding that HRD dogs can detect residual scent of human decomposition from a place where a dead body has rested. The actual remains do not have to be present. I can think of several cases where this clue was a factor.

As far as I can tell, the HRD hits are all in one area, but it is not near the area where they were found. Could this indicate the Jamisons were murdered in that spot, then disposed of elsewhere?

This is why I asked whether that single dashed line could indicate a dirt road on the topo map... That would make it easier for someone with the proper rugged-type vehicle to get them to the HRD spot, kill them, then drive off to dispose of them in Smokestack Hollow.

I agree with you. The dashed line on the topo indicated a trail, but the current situation appears to be that there are pretty good roads very near the HRD area. If LE eventually found pig remains, they might have ruled out human remains. However, if they found no remains of any kind, it would be possible that human remains had been there. I don't know what LE's final determination was. Do you think that it is possible that this area is where the "tank" was located? I have not seen a post with the coordinates of the tank, and I have not been able to see any signs of a base for a tank on Google Earth. Of course, it is possible that the tank was just setting on the ground.

 

[TooCurious]

https://support.google.com/earth/answer/148094?hl=en

Okiegranny,
Are you certain of your coordinates as to where the bodies were found?
I use my Android for access but I was wondering if anyone is willing to pull up a close up of the area and post it using Google Earth. Then post Google Earth pics of same area in 2011, 2010, and 2009 for comparison? ? Above is a link giving instructions in case it is needed.

 

[OkieGranny]

Okiegranny,
Are you certain of your coordinates as to where the bodies were found?

Oh, whoa, wait, that wasn't me! I haven't given any coordinates. All I've seen are the ones that were posted yesterday.

I'm holding off on maps and discussion of the specific location for now. I wonder if an ordinary citizen could get a copy of that release with the coordinates from LCSO, since they released it to the press?

 

[TooCurious]

Depending on the month it was taken, maybe 2008 too? We should be able to see what was added to the scenery. The clothing should be visible in the 2009 and 2010 pics. Anyone want to look and post it for everyone? My comp is down and I use the phone or I would.

 

[TooCurious]

http://prairiechicken.blogspot.com/2013/12/jamison-family-missing-now-found.html?m=1

Oh, whoa, wait, that wasn't me! I haven't given any coordinates. All I've seen are the ones that were posted yesterday.

I'm holding off on maps and discussion of the specific location for now. I wonder if an ordinary citizen could get a copy of that release with the coordinates from LCSO, since they released it to the press?

Lol. Sorry I was doing some "off site" reading. Read this link.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://prairiechicken.blogspot.com/2013/12/jamison-family-missing-now-found.html?m=1

Lol. Sorry I was doing some "off site" reading. Read this link.

Oh, I see. Yeah, I believe those coordinates were the ones mtrooper first gave us, when the remains were first found. And then she came back to say no, those coordinates were not correct. By then I had already posted a map to show those coordinates, but there's only a limited amount of time to go back and delete a post that turns out to be based on incorrect info, so it's still there. My ears are still red over that one, and a few others, lol.

 

[Mitch1]

Depending on the month it was taken, maybe 2008 too? We should be able to see what was added to the scenery. The clothing should be visible in the 2009 and 2010 pics. Anyone want to look and post it for everyone? My comp is down and I use the phone or I would.

That would be interesting to compare for sure!

 

[TooCurious]

The FTJ site has the coordinates that were supposedly confirmed by the ME.

"35DEGREES 2'39.60"N 95DEGREES 13'2.45"W*" copied from the FTJ site.

 

[OkieGranny]

Will anyone volunteer to call the LCSO and ask if it's possible to get a copy of that report? I would, but I'm not a phone person at all. Am horribly awkward at it.

The non-emergency number is (918) 465-4012.

Or maybe fax a request? I don't have access to a fax machine. That number is (918) 465-0489.

 

[Mitch1]

Yep and I would think the ME wouldn't appreciate someone posting on a public site that she verified something that she didn't. Though those coordinates were maybe 100ft from a dirt road and in every single news article I read LE was said how difficult it was to get to the remains

 

[Tulessa]

Will anyone volunteer to call the LCSO and ask if it's possible to get a copy of that report? I would, but I'm not a phone person at all. Am horribly awkward at it.

The non-emergency number is (918) 465-4012.

Or maybe fax a request? I don't have access to a fax machine. That number is (918) 465-0489.

Yes I can and I will. What report do you want me to ask for?

 

[OkieGranny]

Yep and I would think the ME wouldn't appreciate someone posting on a public site that she verified something that she didn't. Though those coordinates were maybe 100ft from a dirt road and in every single news article I read LE was said how difficult it was to get to the remains

FTJ may not be considered an "official" source, but I do believe what was written in that post. However, I got spanked once before for violating TOS on another case, so I'd really like to have more direct confirmation via the ME, LE, or the press before I feel comfortable about posting anything based on those coordinates.

 

[OkieGranny]

Yes I can and I will. What report do you want me to ask for?

In an article published by The Oklahoman, there was mention of a press release from the Latimer County Sheriff's Office that included the GPS coordinates. That's the report we want.

 

[Mitch1]

FTJ may not be considered an "official" source, but I do believe what was written in that post. However, I got spanked once before for violating TOS on another case, and so I'd really like to have more direct confirmation via the ME, LE, or the press before I feel comfortable about posting anything based on those coordinates.

Understandable.
I certainly don't consider FTJ an official source, however you would have to have a pretty big set of webbos to post publicly that the ME personally confirmed something to you if they didn't. I would think it would be a quick way to get your site shut down-at the least.

 

[Tulessa]

In an article published by The Oklahoman, there was mention of a press release from the Latimer County Sheriff's Office that included the GPS coordinates. That's the report we want.

(918) 465-0489. gives me one ring , then a loud screeching never ending sound. I need a good number.