Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[Chimera]

I found this to be helpful on a site that explains some legal and courtroom jargon :

Difference between a restraining order and a protective order

A restraining order is simply another term for an order of protection or an injunction against harassment. These can be filed in any court or during off hours..

azcourthelp.org

The main difference between a protective order vs. a restraining order is the law by which they are applied and the jurisdiction in which the order is issued.​

So depending on which state ... the two terms may have a different meaning ?
Omo.

 

[MyBelle]

VB tried to get a restraining order? I haven't seen this.

Restraining orders keep the restrained person so many feet away from you which is not possible when the people you want to restrain have legal access to your kids by custody or partial custody or visitation.

2 Cents

I think it is possible it was denied because TA lived in another state.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Thanks!

Restraining orders don't stop killers

So true. In cases of domestic violence, the most dangerous time for the victim is after the EOP is obtained. Judges need better training in understanding domestic violence. Jennifer Dulos' request for an EOP was denied by a judge.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Not a dumb question, but murderers can tend to be s t u p i d. Patrick Frazee had both his phone and hers in the truck. Yet telling authorities he didn't know where she was.

ITA. I will never understand why the DA cut Frazee's girlfriend such a sweet plea deal. The cell phone evidence was enough to convict him.

 

[ConMac]

The by line is Laura McMillan who took it upon herself to edit out that CW said her mother told her that Paul Grice was at the murder scene. That is a lie by omission which I find rather curious and don't like it.

Help! Who is Laura McMillan? I don't remember seeing her name before.

 

[Artis]

Not a dumb question. I believe they have to powered on. I wonder if they stupidly turned them off at the burial site, so the last pings were there, and they never anticipated the burners could be traced.

I'm a complete tech tard and have never owned a smart phone but I found this:

The NSA vs Al-Qaeda​

One of the next major news stories showing that phones could be tracked even when turned off was published by the Washington Post in 2013. The technique, dubbed, “The Find” gave the NSA thousands of new targets, and was used against an Al-Qaeda sponsored insurgency in Iraq.

The Post did not report on how it worked, but Slate speculated that the devices were infected with malware that could force them to emit signals, unless the battery was taken out. Under normal circumstances, a phone would stop communicating with cell towers when turned off.

Slate’s assumptions seem far more likely than any kind of hardware rig, seeing as the Post implied that the technique allowed the NSA to find the devices, and it would not be practical to physically find the Al-Qaeda phones and insert thousands of listening bugs.

How your Mobile Phone tracks you (even when switched off)

It's no secret that your mobile tracks you. A lot. We explain all the different ways your phone tracks you and let you know how you can fight them.

www.comparitech.com

I've read lost articles about big tech secretly putting "back doors" into phone software, though I'm clear on what that means (listening in, tracking???) since I'm not tech savvy.

I have what's called a dark bag for my key fob so it can't be hacked and my car stolen. They make those bags for cell phones, too. Once in the bag, they may as well not exist.

 

[Artis]

Help! Who is Laura McMillan? I don't remember seeing her name before.

Just the reporter's name on the article. I looked her up to send her an email but wasn't able to find any contact for her. Her title is "digital reporter" and she's employed by Nexstar Media, which is a huge corporation, owning lots of websites and news stations. These people (the writers) are not journalists so I doubt she bothered to read the AA but just went off the latest info being given out by the OSBI who must have quietly tried to further erase Paul Grice. Not gonna work!

 

[Cool Cats]

Oh, ok, thanks for pointing that out.
Maybe a misinterpretation by me ?
I was under the impression that a restraining order and protection order are the same legal term ?
Imo.


Was the P.O. in actuality a protection order from Tifany Adams and necessarily WR ?


That is very tragically true.
We see it over and over again in these cases.
Omo.

I missed it in your post about the protection order:

Other court documents show the years of turmoil between Butler and Adams, but efforts to secure a protection order did not get a judge’s approval.

Your right, a restraining order and protection order are the same.

 

[Artis]

I want to apologize to everyone for my constant typos. It's just that my fingers can't keep up with my lightning fast brain (and I flunked typing class).

 

[Marie A]

Heavily weighing on my mind…..
I’m curious to know if TA used her power and manipulation to accuse VB’s brother of something that he may not actually be guilty of.
Not sure how to deep dive into those records or if they are open but I would love to know EXACTLY what transpired for VB to lose custody of her kids in the first place and whether or not TA played any roll in twisting the truth.
TA is beyond brazen- enough to make me wonder if she isn’t used to getting her way through whatever lying and corrupt means necessary
All IMHO

 

[SteveP]

Heavily weighing on my mind…..
I’m curious to know if TA used her power and manipulation to accuse VB’s brother of something that he may not actually be guilty of.
Not sure how to deep dive into those records or if they are open but I would love to know EXACTLY what transpired for VB to lose custody of her kids in the first place and whether or not TA played any roll in twisting the truth.
TA is beyond brazen- enough to make me wonder if she isn’t used to getting her way through whatever lying and corrupt means necessary
All IMHO

I would say there is a really good likelihood that your thoughts are spot on. JMO

 

[Artis]

Heavily weighing on my mind…..
I’m curious to know if TA used her power and manipulation to accuse VB’s brother of something that he may not actually be guilty of.
Not sure how to deep dive into those records or if they are open but I would love to know EXACTLY what transpired for VB to lose custody of her kids in the first place and whether or not TA played any roll in twisting the truth.
TA is beyond brazen- enough to make me wonder if she isn’t used to getting her way through whatever lying and corrupt means necessary
All IMHO

If she did that, the court bought it and awarded custody to Wrangler, giving Veronica supervised visitation.

 

[ClearAhead]

Heavily weighing on my mind…..
I’m curious to know if TA used her power and manipulation to accuse VB’s brother of something that he may not actually be guilty of.
Not sure how to deep dive into those records or if they are open but I would love to know EXACTLY what transpired for VB to lose custody of her kids in the first place and whether or not TA played any roll in twisting the truth.
TA is beyond brazen- enough to make me wonder if she isn’t used to getting her way through whatever lying and corrupt means necessary
All IMHO

Oh how I hate when I read something, then can’t find it again. Because it was about having lost custody, what I recall is she had to move from her grandmother’s (?) house and so then her living situation along with the children became unstable. I hope someone else can post a link.

 

[Cedars]

Does anyone know if there's ever been an interview, with a killer, where the killer was straight out asked, "What the hell were you thinking and how did you ever think you could get away with this?"?

Yes, I'm sure - by criminologists. So not likely to be in the news or SM, but in textbooks and research papers. Psychology of the criminal mind, but also research on deterence.

There may well have been criminal profilers involved in this case, trying to learn what they could about the 4 accused, in order to assist police in, for eg, how to carry out the arrests, and how to do the interviews.

Based on what they could learn about TA, they'd have chosen a particular type of person to interview her: either someone she would respect, or someone who wouldn't threaten her, or someone she could even bond with. Whatever they believed would be most effective, based on her profile. And that person would be very highly trained in how to interview, and well briefed on her personality, likely motives, relationships...

And, it worked, since they got some kind of admission of guilt out of her.

JMO

ETA I just remembered, there's a long interview on youtube with Chris Watts in prison by criminal profilers. I can't recall much, plus he tended to continued to lie about the actual sequence of the murders, even when he doesn't have to. He doesn't want to look like a terrible person, even though, yes, he did kill his wife and children...

 

[Universecalling]

I missed it in your post about the protection order:

Other court documents show the years of turmoil between Butler and Adams, but efforts to secure a protection order did not get a judge’s approval.

Your right, a restraining order and protection order are the same.

There’s maybe 2% chance that I’m correct in this, but I’ll still try…
Could the protection order mentioned above be referring to VB asking for LE to be present at pick ups and drop offs?

 

[Error505]

Chris Cuomo interviewed Veronica Butler’s attorney, Garrett Oates. Interesting conversation MOO

https://twitter.com/x/status/1780400269534113876

 

[Cool Cats]

There’s maybe 2% chance that I’m correct in this, but I’ll still try…
Could the protection order mentioned above be referring to VB asking for LE to be present at pick ups and drop offs?

Cops don't do it that way, the transfer is done at the police station if it is contentious enough to require police presence.

A protection order is something different. If person A gets a restraining order granted aginst person B then both A and B must stay so many feet away from each other.

For a custody exchange, A and B would have to have other people doing it because they couldn't be that close to each other.

Like A has a friend take child to B and B has a friend to take child to A.

2 Cents

 

[Universecalling]

Cops don't do it that way, the transfer is done at the police station if it is contentious enough to require police presence.

A protection order is something different. If person A gets a restraining order granted aginst person B then both A and B must stay so many feet away from each other.

For a custody exchange, A and B would have to have other people doing it because they couldn't be that close to each other.

Like A has a friend take child to B and B has a friend to take child to A.

2 Cents

Thank you.
I remember there being a discussion of VB asking for LE presence and protection during exchanges.
I believe it was granted for some time and then the court ruled it wasn’t necessary any longer.
Can someone help me with this, please? Could have sworn a cop was present during some of the exchanges. And this being a small town and TA’s influence, the protocols in bigger cities may not apply here.

My thoughts were there’s a possibility that’s what is being referenced when mentioning “protective order”… as in using words interchangeably when they shouldn’t be.

 

[Cool Cats]

Thank you.
I remember there being a discussion of VB asking for LE presence and protection during exchanges.
I believe it was granted for some time and then the court ruled it wasn’t necessary any longer.
Can someone help me with this, please? Could have sworn a cop was present during some of the exchanges. And this being a small town and TA’s influence, the protocols in bigger cities may not apply here.

My thoughts were there’s a possibility that’s what is being referenced when mentioning “protective order”… as in using words interchangeably when they shouldn’t be.

This is from the prosecution's Motion to hold the four murder defendants without bail so it should be quite accurate when referring to something as important as a protective order.

A cop being part of the custody exchange could have happened years ago, maybe, but I would need to see it mentioned in a court document or see a witness mention it. Otherwise it is pure speculation.

 

[sunspun]

This is from the prosecution's Motion to hold the four murder defendants without bail so it should be quite accurate when referring to something as important as a protective order.

A cop being part of the custody exchange could have happened years ago, maybe, but I would need to see it mentioned in a court document or see a witness mention it. Otherwise it is pure speculation.

ETA And it came from here: OSCN Case Details
ETA again, I also posted a copy of another place in the documents where this was again mentioned, and that was in Thread 4, post 182! HTH!