Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[SteveP]

He may try representing himself. Really.

In the words of President Abraham Lincoln, "The man who represents himself has a fool for a client."

 

[Muddy K]

He doesn't need a lawyer, he has the Freedom Bundle to protect him.

Ba da boom!!!

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

These people obviously did believe that laws against murder apply to them because they buried their victims. Like most murderers, they probably feel justified.

Well I am getting a little satisfaction (ok morbid or twisted oh well) that IIRC the cold stainless bed and stainless steel sink and toilet (combined I hope) are a nice new intro to the TA and crew gang. They have earned it. And they could consider it a sovereign fitting surroundings and habitats. And despite their leanings, I hope the water is tepid at best. And not hot. What a wretched bunch. All 5. And I am still wondering about JB the landowner. And the ‘babysitters’. Lot of posts today IMO about those three…… and how could the sitters not have some idea. Maybe the grandmother is being looked at real hard……. as is the son? One can have hope. MOO

 

[Muddy K]

Not a lot of details on that. For some reason, they were relatively sure she’d come out of her house. Possibly a setup meeting to go to. Or someone had been stalking her habits?

Or TA just could not understand the Google search results on how to get someone out of their house...

 

[Artis]

All five individuals allegedly went to Hugoton, Kansas, where Butler lived, but they couldn't get her out of her residence.

Grice was booked into the Texas County jail on Wednesday.

Fifth person arrested in connection to death of 2 Kansas moms

Paul Grice was charged with two counts of first-degree murder, two counts of kidnapping and one count of conspiracy to commit murder in the first degree

www.koco.com

Grice is being held without bond at the Texas County Detention Center in Guymon, a jail official said. Court and jail records don’t indicate if Grice has an attorney who could speak on his behalf.

Oklahoma prosecutors charge fifth member of anti-government group in Kansas women's killings

Oklahoma prosecutors have charged a fifth member of an anti-government group with killing and kidnapping two Kansas women.

apnews.com

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Other than the names, the AA looked to be the same for each of the five, except with Grice, they removed his name from the account of CW, saying he was there in February. I found that curious though don't know what to make of it.

 

[Artis]

Tif, Tad and the Twomblys didn’t send the Feds the sovereign citizen paperwork or it would be found on the okcountyrecords site. They also pay their taxes. They are pretenders.

How long has Tifany has been pretending to be a sovereign citizen? Since the custody battles began and she needed some additional morons to help her kill Veronica?

Grice may be the only one who held those particular beliefs. We really don't even know what "God's Misfits", the group, thought about anything. It doesn't appear they were discussing the New Testament at their meetings.

 

[MyBelle]

IMHO, what I see with these people is more akin to a gang. I suppose you could call a gang a cult, too, but this five went out and murdered like they were MS13. I'm not seeing anything here like a religious motive or anti government. Just straight up violent homicidal maniacs. There have been a couple of vague references to them being intimidating or bullies and it will be interesting to see if we hear more about that. So far, all we've heard is from the judge who said Tad was a good guy and a friend, and from the guy who employed Grice who said he was also a good guy. Not too surprising, I guess. People liked Ted Bundy and Chris Watts, too.

BBM. TA, the leader of this cult, knew the Court was going to give unsupervised visitation and possibly custody back to VB.

JMO

 

[Artis]

There's asset rich and cash rich. It's easier to pay things cash rich but with assets it takes time to sell and some are unwilling to sell assets (especially land) because they still have not accepted a few things including what their new life entails and/or refusal to accept the land they hold so 'priceless' is indeed much less valuable than what they believe from their parents or previous generational land wealth. From my own personal experience dealing with families and assets.

Agree and since their land is tied up in trusts - or at least Tifany's is - no lawyer can even take that in payment (unlike, say, OJ's Rockingham estate).

 

[Artis]

I would hope NOT but the father is still alive correct? He's in rehab, right?

Yes. From what we've seen written about him, I hope his granny will testify, at any future custody hearing, to what he relayed to her about taking Veronica out at the drop off point.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Agree and since their land is tied up in trusts - or at least Tifany's is - no lawyer can even take that in payment (unlike, say, OJ's Rockingham estate).

Yes I would imagine. At least not easily? Trying to remember if there is an attorney on this thread. I think there was? Interesting to get that input. I do hope that the estates of VB and JK might be able to go after a good portion of their holdings? And to perhaps file before others, creditors if any, or legal reps for the TA gang get involved? It will be interesting to see how much of a conspiracy case can be made on any and all? MOO

 

[MyBelle]

I think this young woman realized fairly quickly that if these people were willing to kill a woman who was a court mandated observer than nothing was off the table, including killing their children for making choices they did not like. And, they had this girl cleaning up blood evidence of their carnage. Cora must have thought she would obey and be quiet given their ideology. This reminds me of the Daybell murders where it would seem that the older daughter started to ask questions but was unable to get away from the monsters. This girl had good smarts to get to TX and out of Cora's reach. I have no doubt they would have done away with her once it became clear that she would talk.

This kind of terroristic group is frightening. To think that there are others in the group who might/would do their biding engenders fear in this community I am sure. It does make me think that there are lots of cells like this that exist which is terrifying to say the least. I am thinking OKC bombers and now these folks. Ughhhh!!!! JMHO.

Well said. Cora is a very brave young woman.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

There's asset rich and cash rich. It's easier to pay things cash rich but with assets it takes time to sell and some are unwilling to sell assets (especially land) because they still have not accepted a few things including what their new life entails and/or refusal to accept the land they hold so 'priceless' is indeed much less valuable than what they believe from their parents or previous generational land wealth. From my own personal experience dealing with families and assets.

Tricky, very tricky.

The children of the defendants should get control of their real property, like if my dad ended up in prison I would step in and manage his estate.

Where it gets tricky is how much of the defendants' estates can their children claim for themselves - for their personal use - and how much will be included in a civil judgement against the defendants?

In other words, say my dad is sent to prison for the rest of his life and he gives me the deed to his house and has me move his money into my bank account. Then I use the money for all of his needs and the rest for myself.

But then the families of the victims win a large money judgement against my dad in civil court. Would I have to give them the house that I now own and give them the money in my bank account?

Tricky because usually family takes care of an incarcerated person's estate - with a lawyer they hire - but then the victims are entitled to money from the estate in a civil judgement.

2 Cents

 

[Artis]

BBM. TA, the leader of this cult, knew the Court was going to give unsupervised visitation and possibly custody back to VB.

JMO

That's true in every custody case that ends up in murder, which there a lot of.

 

[Artis]

Tricky, very tricky.

The children of the defendants should get control of their real property, like if my dad ended up in prison I would step in and manage his estate.

Where it gets tricky is how much of the defendants' estates can their children claim for themselves - for their personal use - and how much will be included in a civil judgement against the defendants?

In other words, say my dad is sent to prison for the rest of his life and he gives me the deed to his house and has me move his money into my bank account. Then I use the money for all of his needs and the rest for myself.

But then the families of the victims win a large money judgement against my dad in civil court. Would I have to give them the house that I now own and give them the money in my bank account?

Tricky because usually family takes care of an incarcerated person's estate - with a lawyer they hire - but then the victims are entitled to money from the estate in a civil judgement.

2 Cents

I'm sure it gets very messy and I've wondered that in the case of OJ. He probably didn't have much when he died but I heard he owned a house in Las Vegas. The Goldman's are still going after his assets but what about his kids, especially the two with Nicole Brown Simpson? Tifany's trusts also include her siblings and since they didn't do anything I would think, at least, their portion of ownership couldn't be touched. Very complicated.

 

[SteveP]

Well said. Cora is a very brave young woman.

JMO

I know who you meant, but Cora is the murdering mother. CW, her daughter, is the very brave young woman,

 

[charmingbetsy]

Messy, indeed. TA's land appears to be held in a corporation, which is currently suspended due to failure to pay state taxes (if there is a trust, I don't know the name). Twombly's land appears to be held in a corporation, which is also suspended for failure to pay state taxes. Tad's land appears to be in trust.

Adams Family Farming Ltd: corpInformation

Twombly & Sons: corpInformation

 

[legomonster]

Tricky, very tricky.

The children of the defendants should get control of their real property, like if my dad ended up in prison I would step in and manage his estate.

Where it gets tricky is how much of the defendants' estates can their children claim for themselves - for their personal use - and how much will be included in a civil judgement against the defendants?

In other words, say my dad is sent to prison for the rest of his life and he gives me the deed to his house and has me move his money into my bank account. Then I use the money for all of his needs and the rest for myself.

But then the families of the victims win a large money judgement against my dad in civil court. Would I have to give them the house that I now own and give them the money in my bank account?

Tricky because usually family takes care of an incarcerated person's estate - with a lawyer they hire - but then the victims are entitled to money from the estate in a civil judgement.

2 Cents

Every state is different and depends on if federal or state prison/jail. Most wouldn't believe how many don't have anything lined up, some don't trust their children or beneficiaries (for good reasons or not, sometimes it's all about control) or think the children will come together and compromise (ime, with death they do not even in the best situations). So, as such, it's important to have this arranged before the event of an impending arrest and one has substantial wealth or death. You as a benefiary may have to pay state taxes for inheritance in some examples. There are other parallels too, especially with bond and land assets.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Messy, indeed. TA's land appears to be held in a corporation, which is currently suspended due to failure to pay state taxes (if there is a trust, I don't know the name). Twombly's land appears to be held in a corporation, which is also suspended for failure to pay state taxes. Tad's land appears to be in trust.

Tifany has never been charged for not paying her taxes. Where did you find that she hasn’t paid them? Tia

Per the okcountyrecords.com site, one can see that she is involved in two land trusts. One trust is called Adam’s sisters (with her 4 sisters). The other is called Adam’s family.

 

[charmingbetsy]

Tifany has never been charged for not paying her taxes. Where did you find that she hasn’t paid them? Tia

Per the oklahomacountyrecords.com site, one can see that she is involved in two land trusts. One trust is called Adam’s sisters (with her 4 sisters). The other is called Adam’s family.

I edited my post to include a link to the Adams Family Farming Ltd entity record. It has the suspension notification. In my observations, the Oklahoma Tax Commission takes a beat before filing any formal action you might find in court records.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Tiffany’s tax lien was in 2018. That’s what okcountyrecords shows. ??