OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

[mst]

The court had an agreed upon location for child exchanges, correct? So if the spot was changed, wouldn't that have been suspicious to Veronica? <modsnip: no link>

 

[CuriousCricket]

That area is bordered by three other states, including NM and Colorado. Could the perps have gone in one of those directions to a wilderness area?
Seems risky to dispose of the bodies somewhere in the immediate area.
This is so horrific....I keep thinking of the panic and anguish Pastor Kelley and his friend felt on seeing all those cops and the empty Kia.

It has occurred to me that in light of the families saying they have been asked by LE not to talk about the case that perhaps Pastor Kelley and Jillian were on the phone constantly as a safety measure. Or, maybe she had time to quickly dial him so he could hear what was happening.

Even though coverage was spotty in the area where the Kia was found, still Jillian may have been able to tell her husband something was happening, even perhaps tell him who, describe a vehicle, read road signs to him.

Since this custody battle was years long and since Jillian appears to have been directly involved as a court-approved supervisor for visits, her husband must have been frantic when she left. At his age and in his position, he would have known the score of other custody fights and how violent some become. That they would have worked out a safety net for her and reassurance for him makes sense to me.

Since my family and I have used the phone to stay in touch with each other in situations we think might be less than ideal, I'm wondering if they weren't online with each other most of the trip.

That would account for him rushing to Oklahoma and might account for the "gag" order from LE to the families.

 

[Megnut]

All MOO

Perhaps there was a second 911 call. J may have recognized the inherent risk of her position and had a built in safety check. Husband actively tracking her, for example. He sees her progress stop, identifies the location as short of the expected location. Tries to call her. No answer, no messing around, calls 911... in close succession with the other 911 which provides some charged context for an abandoned vehicle and escalates the call to all hands on deck.

MOO MOO MOO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

McKee said the abandoned vehicle was found by Texas County deputies and referred additional questions to Texas County Sheriff Matt Boley, who did not immediately return a phone call for comment.

https://www.expressnews.com/news/article/foul-play-suspected-in-the-disappearance-of-two-19387644.php

*Darn, I can’t find it now but we were talking about oil wells earlier. I want to highlight an example with this short article that just came out about a man found from missing in December:

The body was reportedly found in a hand-dug and previously capped well on Wilkerson’s Ranch in Delaware County. The property is owned by Mike Wilkerson, who previously served as police chief in Kansas.

Body found in NE Oklahoma well might be that of missing 19-year-old, Trey Glass – Newstalk KZRG

A body found in a well in northeast Oklahoma may be that of 19-year-old Treymar, "Trey" Glass who was last seen on December 17, 2023 in Kansas, Oklahoma. The Ch

newstalkkzrg.com

The hand-dug well was approximately 40 feet deep and contained around eight feet of water and was located 40 feet beyond Wilkerson’s back yard fence. “The well used to have a cement cap on it until a horse broke it,” Wilkerson said.

Body found in well, possibly missing teen

KANSAS, Okla. — A man’s body, believed to be that of missing teen Trey Glass, was found in a well on the property where he was reportedly last seen. Trey Glass, 19, of Kansas, Oklahoma left home on…

www.fourstateshomepage.com

 

[windrower]

Based on the video, the driver was going north on 95 and the police vehicles were on the west side of L Rd near the intersection with 95. I originally thought the car was found on NO620 Rd which is a few hundred feet south on 95. After viewing the video, I realized the angle was wrong for it to be NO620 Rd.
I wonder if a vehicle was either pulled across 95 south forcing the victims to turn on to L Rd or VB was told to go to L Rd, right off 95, to meet for the pickup. If the latter was the case, they may have been told it was safer than having the children get out on the busier 95.
VB may not have felt comfortable with this new location, but was excited for her daughter’s birthday party and may have felt safe because she was with JK which had her let down her guard a bit.
ETA that I don’t believe Nicole’s statement about the location of the vehicle being on 95 is correct.

I do have some trouble with our conversations about a ruse call to VB to go to a new location. I think whoever did this is quite savvy and would know a voice or text message would be easily tracked.
Thus, for now, I can't include it in any scenario of what went down.

The court had an agreed upon location for child exchanges, correct? So if the spot was changed, wouldn't that have been suspicious to Veronica? I would say it would be silly of TA to violate the terms if she had an upcoming custody hearing unless she already knew that VB wouldn't be around for it

There didn’t need to be a call about changing the meet up place.

If Veronica and Jilian were headed for the Four Corners, they would have left Hwy 56 (which looks to me what road they’d have been on since leaving Hugoton) and gotten on 95 south just outside of Elkhart. That is the most direct way to the Four Corners spot; in my opinion, they were right where they should have been to get where they were going.

If you look at the map, what appears to be Four Corners is at the junction of 95 and the east-west Hwy 412, which looks like a much more well-traveled road.

The spot where the car was found, and that @OldCop has marked on his map—95 and Road L—is one of the few spots between Elkhart and Hwy 412 where a person they expected to meet at Hwy 412/Four Corners could have been waiting, maybe flagged them down or set up an ambush.

The spot is south, past the school, and north of the next set of buildings where there might be people around.

Every day is too long without information.

 

[Mars Investigates]

I’m watching and praying from Ireland for these Women. This whole scenario baffles me. So many questions.

 

[Universecalling]

If this was pre planned and detailed to stage a random abduction, I could see TA taking the kids to Four Corners, with her cellphone in tow and waiting like she is supposed to.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

The court had an agreed upon location for child exchanges, correct? So if the spot was changed, wouldn't that have been suspicious to Veronica? <modsnip: no link>

We have no facts about any changed meeting point.
I feel that that would end up being a huge red flag to LE when they get device data.
I just feel these/this perp would know how easily this data could be found.
I guess I could hope they would be dumb, but I doubt that.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It has occurred to me that in light of the families saying they have been asked by LE not to talk about the case that perhaps Pastor Kelley and Jillian were on the phone constantly as a safety measure. Or, maybe she had time to quickly dial him so he could hear what was happening.

Even though coverage was spotty in the area where the Kia was found, still Jillian may have been able to tell her husband something was happening, even perhaps tell him who, describe a vehicle, read road signs to him.

Since this custody battle was years long and since Jillian appears to have been directly involved as a court-approved supervisor for visits, her husband must have been frantic when she left. At his age and in his position, he would have known the score of other custody fights and how violent some become. That they would have worked out a safety net for her and reassurance for him makes sense to me.

Since my family and I have used the phone to stay in touch with each other in situations we think might be less than ideal, I'm wondering if they weren't online with each other most of the trip.

That would account for him rushing to Oklahoma and might account for the "gag" order from LE to the families.

Oh G, I hope this is what might have transpired.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

If this was pre planned and detailed to stage a random abduction, I could see TA taking the kids to Four Corners, with her cellphone in tow and waiting like she is supposed to.

Agree completely.

 

[Tranquileyes]

There is typically a maximum waiting period for exchanges of children before the waiting party can depart.

I do wonder what that waiting period might have been in this case and whether any action was taken by the waiting party to sound an alarm or makes some calls about a potential 'no show'?

I also very much wonder if there was in fact a vehicle waiting a 4 Corners with 2 children inside at any point that am.

If it has to do with the family, then they should have covered their tracks by keeping up appearances. Would be fairly easy to check cameras and their cell phone location etc. l Someone else would have had to do the dirty work.

 

[mst]

There didn’t need to be a call about changing the meet up place.

If Veronica and Jilian were headed for the Four Corners, they would have left Hwy 56 (which looks to me what road they’d have been on since leaving Hugoton) and gotten on 95 south just outside of Elkhart. That is the most direct way to the Four Corners spot; in my opinion, they were right where they should have been to get where they were going.

If you look at the map, what appears to be Four Corners is at the junction of 95 and the east-west Hwy 412, which looks like a much more well-traveled road.

The spot where the car was found, and that @OldCop has marked on his map—95 and Road L—is one of the few spots between Elkhart and Hwy 412 where a person they expected to meet at Hwy 412/Four Corners could have been waiting, maybe flagged them down or set up an ambush.

The spot is south, past the school, and north of the next set of buildings where there might be people around.

Every day is too long without information.

That's my point.

 

[mst]

We have no facts about any changed meeting point.
I feel that that would end up being a huge red flag to LE when they get device data.
I just feel these/this perp would know how easily this data could be found.
I guess I could hope they would be dumb, but I doubt that.

My point exactly. Would be foolish

 

[NDreu]

If the father of VB's children was in prison until 2 weeks ago, how could he still have custody?

Bingo.

 

[carbuff]

Some courts have ruled that you don't automatically lose custody just because you're incarcerated. Theoretically true of both mothers and fathers. I don't remember what states that's true in, however.

 

[kccorona]

Some courts have ruled that you don't automatically lose custody just because you're incarcerated. Theoretically true of both mothers and fathers. I don't remember what states that's true in, however.

I think in general you lose “custody” since you can no longer serve as guardian while incarcerated, but there is not automatic termination of rights based on incarceration. There must be a reason aside from being incarcerated as the basis for termination.
(In my experience as a foster/adoptive parent and with contacts in similar situations in several other states.)

ETA: of course, most of the time if it is a fairly long sentence and the charges have to do with violent crime or are related to child endangerment, there can be a relatively clear path to termination of parental rights, but incarceration does not directly lead to TPR.

 

[carbuff]

I think in general you lose “custody” since you can no longer serve as guardian while incarcerated, but there is not automatic termination of rights based on incarceration. There must be a reason aside from being incarcerated as the basis for termination.
(In my experience as a foster/adoptive parent and with contacts in similar situations in several other states.)

ETA: of course, most of the time if it is a fairly long sentence and the charges have to do with violent crime or are related to child endangerment, there can be a relatively clear path to termination of parental rights, but incarceration does not directly lead to TPR.

Thanks, that's a great explanation. I think I was confusing "custody" and "parental rights."

 

[CuriousCricket]

Do we have this substantiated. This sequence is quite important, so hope you can add the link.

I guess the reason I find this so important is..... why would so much LE show up for a "simple" 911 call about a stranded vehicle. Or did the 911 include much more??????

I am pretty sure we have had it substantiated that there was extensive LE presence when the husbands showed up.
but best state imo....

What if . . . Pastor Kelley and Jillian were on phone when things started happening; then they were disconnected and he could not reach her back. We've heard both phones of the women last pinged right where the car was found. So, he called and wife's phone was turned off. The two men frantically start for Oklahoma, and probably have a really good idea where the women were.

As one drove, the other called 911 in Texas County, Oklahoma, and explained what had happened, along with a description of the Kia.

Then, 911 receives a call of a blue Kia, abandoned and window smashed.

Two calls so close together might be enough to explain the number of LE sent to the scene.

I see that Megnut had already suggested this in Post 703.

 

[carbuff]

Can we rule out road rage/carjacking?

 

[CuriousCricket]

Can we rule out road rage/carjacking?

No, I don't think we have enough info to rule those out. The custody issue is strong motivation, but I for one believe there is a possibility it could be something else. I think it would be a stunning development if it turns out to be something random like that.