Identified! OR - Cave Junction, 'Annie Doe' WhtFem UP10929, 16-20, Redwood Hwy, Aug'71 - Annie Lehman

[catherine.]

Not familiar with this case at all, but the pants size seems odd to me. I'm the same height and about 10 lbs heavier, and I wear a 6 or 8. At 125 lbs, I'd think she would be swimming in a 13/14.

 

[Roselvr]

I just submitted her to NamUs.
Someone else has sent in Cindy Lee Mellin because she had a pearl ring when she disappeared and Janet Kramer.

Jessica Hager just got back to me, she is passing Christine Eastin to the investigating agencies for their review

I also asked if she can find out if there is a size on the jacket and how large the buttons are.

 

[GreenHairedGirlie]

Yea, there's definitely something off about the pant size. I'm 5'2" 125 lbs and wear a size 6-8, and my build is extremely curvy (big hips). When I was heavier, about 155, I wore a 12, max.
I would say either the pant size was mis-read or they were much too big for her- and the size of the rings found (6 1/2) would indicate a thinner build. If the pants fit, I'd put her weight closer to 150-170 at least.
You're right, catherine, a 13/14 would be swimming on her.
One other possibility is the pants were bought large and altered to fit- I wonder if they got a measurement of the waistband. I've altered tons of clothes- either thrift store finds or clothes that no longer fit.

 

[Cryptic]

I wonder what the clothes coould tell us about the poor girl's socio economic status:

- The shoes look worn. This would not normally be a sign of wealth. The degree of wear on the shoes also does not suggest middle class to me.

- Is the area where she was found "cowboy country" or perhaps "logging country"? Wrangler jeans could indicate a local person- but I remember wearing them gowing up in the suburbs. Are the jeans boot cut? This might indicate a local person in a "cowboy" area where such cuts are popular amongst true cowboys and the cowboys at heart.

On the other hand, neither the shoes, nor the jacket would seem to indicate somebody raised in the western states. They also dont seem "hippy" to me either.

- I wonder what brand that knife is? It had deer blood on it, which could well indicate a local person owned it. Buck, Marbles, Camillus and a few other brands are favored by hunters as being of good quality. Accordingly, it is less likely that such a knife would be forgotten or lost at a hunting kill site and more likely that it could be linked to the victim.

 

[CarlK90245]

I also asked if she can find out if there is a size on the jacket and how large the buttons are.

The buttons are 7/8 inch.

 

[carbuff]

Not familiar with this case at all, but the pants size seems odd to me. I'm the same height and about 10 lbs heavier, and I wear a 6 or 8. At 125 lbs, I'd think she would be swimming in a 13/14.

Remember we're talking early 1970 sizes. Garment manufacturers have made the sizes larger as the average person in the US has become heavier and heavier, so it's hard to compare.

 

[carbuff]

Since you had the same outfit, do you think Annie was dressed up or was she more dressed as every day attire due to wearing jeans with it? I do wonder what size her coat was.

You're very lucky that your mom sewed. Mine didn't. My high school started in 8th grade. I ended up taking sewing in 8th grade; all of the shops (home ec, printing, wood) were required. From the little instruction I had, I taught myself to sew leather, then later on dolls and kids clothes lol

Yeah, I was lucky in many ways. Not a lot of money but lots of other good things. I did learn to sew and made some of my own clothes, but I lacked the patience to be good at it.

If the coat was handmade, it probably doesn't have a size in it.

I would say she's dressed at about the level for a day of running errands, or getting supper at a place like IHOP or Denny's, or traveling by car, for instance on vacation. Not real dressed up but not just working around the house either. Could be a college student. In 1971, many high schools including the one I went to still didn't allow jeans.

 

[Lilibet]

I wonder what the clothes coould tell us about the poor girl's socio economic status:

- The shoes look worn. This would not normally be a sign of wealth. The degree of wear on the shoes also does not suggest middle class to me.

- Is the area where she was found "cowboy country" or perhaps "logging country"? Wrangler jeans could indicate a local person- but I remember wearing them gowing up in the suburbs. Are the jeans boot cut? This might indicate a local person in a "cowboy" area where such cuts are popular amongst true cowboys and the cowboys at heart.

On the other hand, neither the shoes, nor the jacket would seem to indicate somebody raised in the western states. They also dont seem "hippy" to me either.

- I wonder what brand that knife is? It had deer blood on it, which could well indicate a local person owned it. Buck, Marbles, Camillus and a few other brands are favored by hunters as being of good quality. Accordingly, it is less likely that such a knife would be forgotten or lost at a hunting kill site and more likely that it could be linked to the victim.

These are great questions about the clothing. Cave Junction was "logging country" back then. I would say it would have been lower economic levels. I lived in a similar area at that time in northern CA. Even though it was mostly logging, a lot of locals wore Wranglers and cowboy boots. I agree that the shoes and jacket aren't "hippy." She may even have bought them second hand and sometimes hippies made do with what they could find. Or, she's worn them out traveling on a shoestring.

Yeah, I was lucky in many ways. Not a lot of money but lots of other good things. I did learn to sew and made some of my own clothes, but I lacked the patience to be good at it.

If the coat was handmade, it probably doesn't have a size in it.

I would say she's dressed at about the level for a day of running errands, or getting supper at a place like IHOP or Denny's, or traveling by car, for instance on vacation. Not real dressed up but not just working around the house either. Could be a college student. In 1971, many high schools including the one I went to still didn't allow jeans.

I agree that she's dressed for running errands or traveling on vacation. I don't see her wearing that outfit to run around Cave Junction, though, if she lived there. The jacket seems a little dressy, even though she was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt. I would have worn an outfit like that to "go to town" to do errands. In her case, if she lived locally, "town" would be Grants Pass or maybe even Medford.

I'm inclined to think she was passing through or hadn't lived there long, since apparently she wasn't missed locally.

 

[Cryptic]

These are great questions about the clothing. Cave Junction was "logging country" back then. I would say it would have been lower economic levels. I lived in a similar area at that time in northern CA. Even though it was mostly logging, a lot of locals wore Wranglers and cowboy boots. I agree that the shoes and jacket aren't "hippy." She may even have bought them second hand and sometimes hippies made do with what they could find. Or, she's worn them out traveling on a shoestring.

I would pick hippy over a poorer girl born and raised in the small town west. The clothes just dont look sturdy. Though I would not say that all westernern girls dress like cowboys or lumber jacks all the time, not only do the clothes lack western styling, but the coat and shoes just dont seem practical for rural or small town mountain living. Then again, as I am male, I maybe placing too much emphasis on practicality in regards to clothing.

As for the victim being associated with a travelling hippy group, I think this is more possible. The route from San Francisco to Portland was probably well travelled by hippy groups at the time. She could have joined the group, or befriended the individual with out fully adapting all the hippie clothing.

As for the murderer (if she was murdered, and sadly, she probably was), that knife is in my mind. It is a real hunting / utility knife, and not a military surplus Ka-bar knife or bayonet that a hippy may have picked up in San Francisco. At the same time, it does not look to be high quality. Plus, the guard is bent. In my mind, a local hunter would be less likely to mistreat his hunting knife and would pick a higher quality knife as he would be using it for years.

Perhaps the girl came an industrial area back east- is the jacket more eastern in style? She then joined a hippy group with the intention of travelling to Portland, or remained in a cummune in the area only to be murdered by a transient hippy?

I'm inclined to think she was passing through or hadn't lived there long, since apparently she wasn't missed locally.

Very good point. Given how sparsely populated the area is, she probably would have been considered local and missed as being local even if she were from a nearby town.

 

[carbuff]

It's true the outfit doesn't look particularly "western." But then those of us who grew up in the west often dress like normal people.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Yea, there's definitely something off about the pant size. I'm 5'2" 125 lbs and wear a size 6-8, and my build is extremely curvy (big hips). When I was heavier, about 155, I wore a 12, max.
I would say either the pant size was mis-read or they were much too big for her- and the size of the rings found (6 1/2) would indicate a thinner build. If the pants fit, I'd put her weight closer to 150-170 at least.
You're right, catherine, a 13/14 would be swimming on her.
One other possibility is the pants were bought large and altered to fit- I wonder if they got a measurement of the waistband. I've altered tons of clothes- either thrift store finds or clothes that no longer fit.

Clothes were a LOT smaller fortyfive years ago. I think a 13/14 is a modern day six?

 

[Cryptic]

But then those of us who grew up in the west often dress like normal people.

I dont doubt it. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have spotted a certain number of urban cowboys as well whose clothing did not reflect being raised in an eastern city, or on an eastern farm. At the same time, I think it is important to consider the following averages, rather than focusing on very real exceptions to those averages:

- 40 years ago, and espescially in rural areas, people were probably more likely to dress to local custom. This does not mean that everyone in small western town "X" would dress fully western all the time, just that most wore articles of western style clothing most of the time.

- Another poster mentioned that the area is "hard scrabble" rather than say, influenced by Boulder, CO or a nearby ski resort. For a vaiety of reasons lower income people of forty years ago, were probably more likely to dress to local cultural norms. Exceptions, however, do exist.

With these averages in mind, my guess is that the victim is not local, but also not from a western area.

 

[carbuff]

My impression from having grown up in the West at the same time as Annie Doe is that your stereotyped generalizations are simply not true.

 

[Cryptic]

My impression from having grown up in the West at the same time as Annie Doe is that your stereotyped generalizations are simply not true.

My uhmm.... "stereotypes" are based on personal impressions as well.

I grew up in Texas during the 1980s. In the "big city" of 25,000 people, there was more variation in dress. In the rural towns of 1,500 people out in the country, most people wore some (or a lot) of western style clothing and or jewery most of the time. That does not mean that everyone looked like they were going to a rodeo 24/7/365 (though some did)- it just meant that western clothes were popular. This was espescially so with whites. Small town blacks in the area usually rejected the western style. This was probably to differentiate themselves from whites.

 

[carbuff]

If that's the case, small town Texas differs quite a bit from small-town Montana.

Certainly some people, men especially, did wear western-cut shirts with the sleeves rolled up and cowboy boots every day, but nothing like half the people. Jeans, yeah, but everybody was wearing those all across the country. People doing work tended to favor "shitkickers" (aka work boots) and "wafflestompers" (aka boots with Vibram soles) because cowboy boots aren't practical for any work that requires traction. The soles are too slick. And t-shirts were the garment of choice. You usually only saw the jewelry, belt buckles, etc. for things like going out dancing, parades and rodeos, etc.

And men were far more likely than women to wear western-cut clothing. Hadn't realized that until now.

I think it was mostly cost. It was not a wealthy area, and even then, a good Western cut shirt with snaps instead of buttons cost twice what an ordinary shirt cost.

My area was an unincorporated area about 8 miles outside the "big city" of around 15K people. It had several bars and restaurants, a gas station (what would now be called a convenience store), a big KOA campground with a pool/spa place, two large trailer parks, some other businesses like a farm supply store, a taxidermist, and my father's garage, and a couple of souvenir stores, as well as farms and ranches.

I'm trying to remember whether I even owned a pair of cowboy boots by the time I was in high school. I don't think so.

 

[carbuff]

Addendum: the issue isn't who was wearing what. The issue is whether someone whose clothing is not specifically Western-style can be from the West. You've said twice they can't, or aren't likely to be. That's the part I take exception to.


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[Cryptic]

Addendum: the issue isn't who was wearing what. The issue is whether someone whose clothing is not specifically Western-style can be from the West. You've said twice they can't, or aren't likely to be. That's the part I take exception to.

Can you show me where I said they "cant"? When you read my posts, you will notice that I made the following comments in regards to western clothing, or expressed the following concepts:

- more likely
- most
-That does not mean every one dressed fully western
- averages
- Though I would not say that all westernern girls dress like cowboys or lumber jacks all the time
-That does not mean they dressed 24/7/365 like they were going to a rodeo
-Exceptions, however, do exist.

As for "not likely", I have held and still hold that the victims clothing makes it less likely (but by no means impossible) that she was from a cowboy culture area.

People doing work tended to favor "shitkickers" (aka work boots) and "wafflestompers" (aka boots with Vibram soles) because cowboy boots aren't practical for any work that requires traction. The soles are too slick.

Shitkickers were worn in Texas as well and though I would not consider them truly western, as they are worn everywhere for out door work, they are usually indicative of a rural life style. The victim was not wearing any female equivelents.

If that's the case, small town Texas differs quite a bit from small-town Montana.

And t-shirts were the garment of choice. You usually only saw the jewelry, belt buckles, etc. for things like going out dancing, parades and rodeos, etc.

And men were far more likely than women to wear western-cut clothing. Hadn't realized that until now.

I would say in Texas, men and women were equally likely to wear western clothing or accessories (certain large wallet styles for men). T-shirts were also very common in my area. They could be mixed, however, with tennis shoes, boots, shitkickers, western belt buckles, or western motiffed wallets, or western cut jeans with a dip ring worn into the seat pocket.

I would say that it would be unusual (but not unheard of) for a local woman in 1970s rural Texas not to be wearing any western style clothing or have no western motiff jewlery, accessories etc. Rather, on a daily basis, people would mix and match western style with standard styles.

 

[Tulessa]

And Tulessa, you are not on Buckskin doe's thread. Alrighty then. Sorry guys! :floorlaugh:

 

[carbuff]

It appears you've edited your posts to remove the phrasing that disturbed me. That's okay, I'm good with that.

 

[Lilibet]

And Tulessa, you are not on Buckskin doe's thread. Alrighty then. Sorry guys! :floorlaugh:

Y'all come back real soon, Tulessa.