OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #15

[Deeemdee]

http://www.komonews.com/news/84748397.html

This body wasn't found for seven weeks in close quarters.
Someone else had a link to a body that was in a hotel room for weeks.
I agree it is not likely, but it is not out of the question yet that his body is in the school somewhere.

And Elisa Claps! Her body was found 17 years later in the building she was known to have gone missing from in the first place!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ing-17-years-comes-tragic-end-body-found.html

 

[JBean]

I moved all our earthquake posts to the earthquake thread. Come join us!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105288"]SoCal Earthquakes - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

back to Kyron

 

[sofia76]

And Elisa Claps! Her body was found 17 years later in the building she was known to have gone missing from in the first place!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ing-17-years-comes-tragic-end-body-found.html

Wow - that's so creepy. Someone was snipping the hair of women on public buses before the deaths/disappearances of both women (in two different countries). There is a young man in Portland who's been arrested for snipping women's hair on public buses! They call him the Tri-Met Barber, I believe. *shudder*

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Have to respectively disagree. LE most often works (and works best, IMO) outside of prosecutorial 'direction'. It is LE's job to gather evidence. It is the DA's job to prosecute criminals. The two departments are separate and one does not guide the other. It is in no way shape or forms LE's job to rule out defenses...not their job at all.

Last post--I am feeling whoozy! We will have to respectfully disagree on this. If this wasn't the case there would be reasonable doubt in many criminal trials simply because LE didn't check out all possibilities.

 

[human]

I wouldn't win any Good Housekeeping Awards. You cannot do white glove test at my home, but I live on a dirt road, so that's my excuse.

But really, I have had a mouse die in my house on more than one occasion, and the smell from a little critter like that is horrendous.

I was working out in my yard the other day and I wondered what the smell was. It was a small dead bird, not a Condor.

I cannot fathom how anyone could not smell a body. That boggles my mind.

Part of my job over the years is to go to the homes of the children I work with, and quite frankly, I can see how a smell like that may be overlooked. But really, I don't get it. UGH.

 

[Deeemdee]

Have to respectively disagree. LE most often works (and works best, IMO) outside of prosecutorial 'direction'. It is LE's job to gather evidence. It is the DA's job to prosecute criminals. The two departments are separate and one does not guide the other. It is in no way shape or forms LE's job to rule out defenses...not their job at all.

I disagree. FBI Special Agent Lynn Willett specifically said that when she was sitting in her car talking to a pizzeria manager she quickly came to believe was a kidnapper, she was very mindful of how she proceeded because she'd seen "confessions fall by the wayside."
Cases can be sunk by police errors, convictions can be overturned by police errors. They definitely think about defenses.

 

[pufnstuf]

Police release replica of Kyron's glasses:

According to the sheriff’s office, the glasses displayed in the photos are the same model, brand and color of Kyron’s glasses.

More at link...photos, clothes. http://www.katu.com/news/local/96353069.html

 

[lilcatt]

They had the dogs at the school and they didn't pick up anything. Maybe to many scents all over the place inside to pick up anything but it just occured to me that I read most schools in Oregon are pretty old. Maybe there is a basement crawl space tunnel kinda thing that know one knows about. Maybe a secret after a lot of years.

Anybody know how old this school is? I think I'll go look.....

:cat:
You know this is a good theory. No one around someone could have just picked him up and took him some where in the school. The dogs wouldn't pick up a scent. I hope they really searched the school in every nook and cranny. That college student that was murdered in the lab she work was stuffed in the walls. It would sure explain why no one saw him leave or why they have not found him. Of course who ever might do that would have ample time to move the body by now.

 

[gibby207]

I wouldn't win any Good Housekeeping Awards. You cannot do white glove test at my home, but I live on a dirt road, so that's my excuse.

But really, I have had a mouse die in my house on more than one occasion, and the smell from a little critter like that is horrendous.

I was working out in my yard the other day and I wondered what the smell was. It was a small dead bird, not a Condor.

I cannot fathom how anyone could not smell a body. That boggles my mind.

Part of my job over the years is to go to the homes of the children I work with, and quite frankly, I can see how a smell like that may be overlooked. But really, I don't get it. UGH.

Bullet points:

1. Your house sounds like my house...and I'm not ashamed! We call it "lived in" while others call it "quaint." LOL

2. I've had an opossum die under my extra building and, yes, it stunk.

3. If you haven't smelled a dead body, then there's no comparison. And, no, a dead opossum doesn't smell like a dead human. Verrryyyyy different. (OR SQUIRREL!!)

 

[DairyGirl]

Police release replica of Kyron's glasses:

According to the sheriff’s office, the glasses displayed in the photos are the same model, brand and color of Kyron’s glasses.

More at link...photos, clothes.

There is no link.

 

[JBean]

To me, everything the little boy in his class said should be qualified as rumor, yet it has been discussed here over and over. None of that was ever verified by anyone else, IIRC. Also, the school being to blame, to me, is a rumor, as we don't know what took place, and that was debated for threads and threads worth of posts. There are very few FACTS in this case and when there have been, LE has often changed their reply to "no comment" later in the week.

I am NOT endorsing the FB series of rumors or the ones from the newspapers comments sections...just saying, a lot of things have been debated here that are not known to be facts as confirmed by LE. JMO and it does make things very confusing.

It is a fact that the boy in the classroom made this statement. Now whether we think he is accurate is something else. but it is not rumored that he said this, it has been reported in the news that he made this statement.

If any of the players made statements as to their whereabouts , it would be a fact that they said this. Now whether the statements are truthful is an entirely different animal.

 

[pufnstuf]

There is no link.

check again

 

[Wendy101]

The person/s who were to be camping on that weekend trip were NOT from Portland or anywhere close. The whole state does not normally go on the same trip on the same weekend. Different troops plan their own trips and even different age groups in the same troop do not go together on the same trips.

Those links are only for ONE troop from ONE church in Portland, and it was a hike that was cancelled not a camping trip, most likely due to the weather in Portland that weekend, which was quite rainy from what was shown on media videos.

Thank you, I can breathe!!

This is exactly why I like to post some of the (sometimes sick) thoughts that are running in my head... someone can always help out and set my mind straight!

 

[rosiebean]

Last post--I am feeling whoozy! We will have to respectfully disagree on this. If this wasn't the case there would be reasonable doubt in many criminal trials simply because LE didn't check out all possibilities.

I think it's a matter of semantics. Of course LE has to rule out possibilities, but possibilities are not 'defenses'. If I waltz into my local LE and confess to a crime, naturally they (if they any good at their job) are not going to take my word. They are going to investigate and see if my admission matches known events/facts. But it is NOT their job to investigate ALL possibilities outside of matching my confession with facts. LE does not investigate to mitigate eventual legal defenses, they investigate to fester out facts. And once they find facts to their satisfaction, they bring them to the judicial branch to prosecute. LEis not involved in the prosecution...the decision to prosecute or not to prosecute is made by the DA/prosecutor...LE are mere witnesses. As it should be. Checks and balances and all of that.

 

[cluciano63]

I'm going to go away for the night. I don't want to talk about stuff that is not confirmed and we have hashed out what little is confirmed, as well as every possible theory, and I am sure one of those theories will turn out to be correct. But until we are given more official information, I'm not sure what else we can usefully discuss.

Seems as though one poster says something, the next one agrees and the next one scolds them both. It's been going on that way for days now, briefly interrupted by discussions of water currents or whatever the latest possibility seems to be, followed by more prayers and good wishes and it is getting too emotional. I am as guilty as anyone, but it is exhausting, mentally, physically and emotionally. I've read every post, listened to all the PC's, read the media articles.

Good night.

 

[pufnstuf]

Adorable photo--what a cute kid.

http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276

 

[darlin gal]

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=Kyron

Don't forget to light a candle, say a prayer for Kyron and his family tonight.
Candles stay bright for 48 hours.
Click on an unlit one to begin.

 

[Lavender]

Well, to clarify my thoughts on this case, I’ve been viewing it from two perspectives. The perspectives are: 1) What are the implications of LE treating this as an isolated incident? 2) What are the implications of the known search locations?

By my way of thinking, LE cannot be assured that this is an isolated incident unless at least one of the following is true:

1) POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
2) POI acted alone and is now deceased (perhaps suicide)
3) POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe
4) LE knows conclusively that Kyron wandered away on his own and encountered no harm by another human

And here are the known search locations:

A) Inside the school
B) Within walking distance outside of the school
C) Areas in Portland that are beyond walking distance of the school

Sadly, C eliminates Scenario 4 (plus LE is publically going in the Criminal Investigation direction). So, that leaves Scenarios 1, 2 and 3.

Here are my thoughts on the remaining 3 scenarios:

Scenario 1: POI acted alone and is in custody (perhaps on another charge)
Explains why LE is extremely tight-lipped and feels the public is safe. They are certain they have the right POI, but without a body and more evidence, they may not be able to charge him/her.

Scenario 2: POI acted alone and is deceased, probably due to suicide.
Explains why LE thinks public is safe. POI may not have left a confession but they are certain he/she was involved. Perhaps they have not ruled out an accomplice and that is why LE is so tight-lipped. This scenario has an interesting fit with two new pieces of information from the Sunday PC: One, that Sheriff Staton said that they did not need a body to make an arrest, and two, that there is now a $25K reward being offered for a tip leading to finding Kyron (not an arrest).

From http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopul...-for-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx

“KOIN Local 6 reporter Lisa Balick asked Staton Sunday if investigators needed to find Kyron before an arrest was made in this puzzling case. Staton paused a beat before answering: "No."

If the POI is deceased, this puts an entirely different twist on Staton’s answer. I thought the way in which Staton paused was very curious. There’s no need to arrest a deceased person, and if the POI is deceased, the reporter’s questions could have thrown him a little loop there.

Scenario 3: POI is alive and not in custody, but is being so closely monitored that LE feels the community is safe.
This could be anyone (staff or visitors) who was at the school that day and saw an opportunity to do something. This is the scenario that seems to be discussed the most.

Any thoughts, especially on scenario 1 or 2?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I cannot fathom how anyone could not smell a body. That boggles my mind.

Scent and how it travels is subject to many, many variables.

My guess, based on my SAR experience, is that in the case of the poor girl whose body was found in an Italian church, the way the church was constructed led airflow up and out the roof.

Italy is a hot climate and the church pictured has a tile roof. She was described as being found in a tiny garret right under the roof. There would be a chimney effect. Imagine smoke leaving the roof--it would go up and spread out. That's how scent would spread as well. People several blocks away or uphill of the church may have gotten the occasional whiff but they wouldn't be able to track it to the source.

If there was a chimney effect, the body would have dessicated and mummified fairly quickly, which also reduces the amount of scent thrown out.

That church looks to me like it is at least a couple centuries old. Buildings built before the age of air conditioning often have more efficient air exchange than modern buildings. The more air exchange there is through a building, the more difficult it is to localise a scent.

Oddly, if a building is extremely tight or has extremely tight areas within it, that can also impede the flow of scent.

A relatively safe home experiment to demonstrate how scent moves is to take a stick of incense, light it and then follow the smoke. Always be careful when playing with fire, even just the little coal on the end of a stick of incense! Make sure to have something like a damp towel nearby to smother the coal if necessary, before you light up.

Depending on the layout of the room, if you hold the incense stick close to the floor, you will see very different patterns of dissipation than you see if you are holding it up high, say shoulder level.

You can easily see how the air currents can puddle the smoke in some areas and let it spread out in others.

 

[Emma Peel]

I'm going to say something possibly very unpopular, but here goes.

While I appreciate little Kyron's artistic talents and think he's a talented boy, I don't see a connection of his artwork and a discussion of other people's kids' artwork and school art programs to this case. As someone who is hoping to stay focused on the fact that he's missing and trying to figure out what happened that day, it would be nice if discussions that have nothing to do with any of that could occur in a separate place (or a separate thread)?

It's challenging enough to keep up on info about the case and many folks have only limited time to look at the case thread(s).

BBM.

It seems I failed to link the connection of Kyron's pictures to the case discussion. My apologies.

If Kyron’s art did not intrigue you, you can probably just skip this post.

I was looking for forum feedback on Kyron’s art, as I’m forming a sort of victim/family life profile. I’m trying to use what little facts we have to fill out the character and abilities of the child Kyron and the quality of his school and home environment. Perhaps there will be more interest in this area if things proceed in the direction many salivate for it to go – with a family perp.

The pictures we have to work with provide us with some of the few facts we have about Kyron’s life. I had questions about Kyron’s drawings in particular, because they’re not simply cute, IMO, they seemed rather excellent.

I wanted to understand how a 7 year old boy could create such seemingly advanced work. Terri, custodial step-mother is a teacher. Teachers kids are often extremely well prepared for school, and have all the support they need to succeed. Is this Kyron’s experience?
Are these drawings really evidence of the care with which he’s been raised, which some imply? Is it really a window into Kyron’s home life? Is Kyron of normal intellect? Or is he somehow gifted?

All I know is my experience here. And my kids didn't produce work of this quality at age 7, back in the day. But that was a while ago and perhaps things are different now. Fortunately, I can ask how typical primary Art works now, because of the folks in this forum.

And is it typical in missing children’s cases – that the photo package from LE includes 2nd grade art? What’s the reason these pictures in particular were selected by LE and put out to the public? Someone here may have seen this before - ask in the forum.

These were my questions. For me, they related to thoughts I'm forumulating. I needed some feedback. Ask the forum.

This is why I asked a brief series of questions about Kyron's artwork in a post in this thread, providing the link to the pictures, and made it as easy as possible for responders by inserting the pix into the post. 28 folks said thanks for asking those questions. 11 posts followed that addressed the question.

The post above condescendingly implies that the 11 replies to my questions about Kyron’s pictures were nothing but a time wasting problem on this thread. I assure you they were not. The posts in answer to mine were definitely helpful. Some replies briefly included personal experience and that is something I asked - what were the experiences these days for 2nd grade art. No replies were self-indulgent or lengthy. Thanks everyone who answered so far. I greatly appreciated them. They helped me refine my thinking on this case even further. At another time, I might even share those thoughts.

I consider myself a serious contributor to this forum. I'm not moving to a parking lot to ask the opinions of this forum’s sleuthers precisely becasue they are here, they are not in the parking lot. And I’m not moving Kyron's pictures to the parking lot as if they were an intrusion here. Unless one of the Beans makes me. :blushing:

We don't have a sectioned forum for Kyron. It is difficult. It's crowded. The threads fly by. We all miss stuff just while we're posting. Nevertheless, for now each thread must be able to support discussion on a variety of sub-topics. And you know what? If and when a large Kyron forum happens, we're all going to greatly miss the synchronicity of the general threads.

This is all JHMO.