OR - Militia members occupy federal building in Oregon after protest #2

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  • #861
We're done.

Yeah I think so too... If there is any point in prematurely condemning LE over something that unreliable, eye witnesses with a heavy load of hostile agenda claimed, but which has not been confirmed and may or may not have happened at all, and caused no harm to anyone in any case, the point is lost on me.
 
  • #862
  • #863
That CNN article and video with Victoria Sharp is interesting. I pulled this out as being most interesting to me:

“Sharp said the caravan had left the wildlife refuge in the middle of the afternoon, headed for the town of John Day. Finicum's truck was ahead of Ammon Bundy's Jeep.

The teen said she was in the truck's back between passengers Ryan Bundy and Shawna Cox. Another occupier was in the front passenger seat.

While the Jeep stayed at the stop, a standoff was developing between Finicum -- who had driven a distance up the road -- and numerous officers.

Sharp had fallen asleep in Finicum's truck when she woke with a start. She was confused at first, then saw a number of police vehicles. Finicum didn't want to get out of the car, and was determined to try and drive to the local sheriff on his own, she said.

Sharp said the passenger in the front of the truck, Ryan Payne, stuck his head and hands out of the window. He then said, "They fired at me." Payne exited with his hands up and surrendered, officials said.

The FBI's statement does not mention any shot fired toward the truck this early in the standoff.

Sharp insisted she heard a shot and said that's why she didn't exit the vehicle immediately. For 3 minutes and 47 seconds, the FBI video shows the white truck idling in the road.

"LaVoy was talking to them. He was not aggressive in any way to them," said Sharp. "He said, 'We're going to talk to the sheriff. You need to leave us alone, back down.'"

The people in the truck were discussing what would happen if Finicum drove off, Sharp told CNN. The FBI said its agents and state troops gave verbal commands for the truck occupants to surrender.

LaVoy Finicum remained determined to try to see the sheriff on his own, said Sharp. "And then he said, 'Hey guys, I'm going to drive.'"

Shawna Cox told her to get down, Sharp said. "'They might shoot when he starts driving,'" she says Cox told her.

Minutes later, the truck encountered another roadblock and went into the snow bank.”​
 
  • #864
And what if they are found to have been firing live rounds and not gas canisters? Is that still cool? To have riddled a car with bullets on the off chance that someone might be hiding inside?
Is it also possible that they were questioning the other car occupants and letting them know that they were going to be shooting up the vehicle to save lives. By giving the car occupants a chance to speak up they were giving anyone left in the vehicle to be saved. It is possible that they did shoot up the vehicle to make sure it did not have anything that would explode in it. I still don't know if they really shot up the vehicle, but IMO if they did it was done to ensure law enforcement safety.
 
  • #865
  • #866
Victoria Sharp claims that, after they had gotten out, agents asked them if anyone remained in the truck, saying "if anyone is still in there, they're going to die". She claims they then began to shoot into it. This seems to be backed up by the video, which shows the rear passenger window being progressively blow out from 18:54 to 18:58.

Who knew if the truck had explosives? These people think they can do an armed standoff and, then, think that LEO are going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They cannot have it both ways. The officers have to ensure their own protection.
 
  • #867
Is it also possible that they were questioning the other car occupants and letting them know that they were going to be shooting up the vehicle to save lives. By giving the car occupants a chance to speak up they were giving anyone left in the vehicle to be saved. It is possible that they did shoot up the vehicle to make sure it did not have anything that would explode in it. I still don't know if they really shot up the vehicle, but IMO if they did it was done to ensure law enforcement safety.

Yeah and if we're dealing with what if's, in case there happened to be someone still hiding in the vehicle, after all the chances they were given to get out and surrender, that someone might have been heavily armed, dangerous and desperate and could have killed quite a few people if left unattended.
 
  • #868
That CNN article and video with Victoria Sharp is interesting. I pulled this out as being most interesting to me:

“Sharp said the caravan had left the wildlife refuge in the middle of the afternoon, headed for the town of John Day. Finicum's truck was ahead of Ammon Bundy's Jeep.

The teen said she was in the truck's back between passengers Ryan Bundy and Shawna Cox. Another occupier was in the front passenger seat.

While the Jeep stayed at the stop, a standoff was developing between Finicum -- who had driven a distance up the road -- and numerous officers.

Sharp had fallen asleep in Finicum's truck when she woke with a start. She was confused at first, then saw a number of police vehicles. Finicum didn't want to get out of the car, and was determined to try and drive to the local sheriff on his own, she said.

Sharp said the passenger in the front of the truck, Ryan Payne, stuck his head and hands out of the window. He then said, "They fired at me." Payne exited with his hands up and surrendered, officials said.

The FBI's statement does not mention any shot fired toward the truck this early in the standoff.

Sharp insisted she heard a shot and said that's why she didn't exit the vehicle immediately. For 3 minutes and 47 seconds, the FBI video shows the white truck idling in the road.

"LaVoy was talking to them. He was not aggressive in any way to them," said Sharp. "He said, 'We're going to talk to the sheriff. You need to leave us alone, back down.'"

The people in the truck were discussing what would happen if Finicum drove off, Sharp told CNN. The FBI said its agents and state troops gave verbal commands for the truck occupants to surrender.

LaVoy Finicum remained determined to try to see the sheriff on his own, said Sharp. "And then he said, 'Hey guys, I'm going to drive.'"

Shawna Cox told her to get down, Sharp said. "'They might shoot when he starts driving,'" she says Cox told her.

Minutes later, the truck encountered another roadblock and went into the snow bank.”​


All that negotiation doesn't sound like he had to drive away ASAP because he was being shot at.
 
  • #869
Is it also possible that they were questioning the other car occupants and letting them know that they were going to be shooting up the vehicle to save lives. By giving the car occupants a chance to speak up they were giving anyone left in the vehicle to be saved. It is possible that they did shoot up the vehicle to make sure it did not have anything that would explode in it. I still don't know if they really shot up the vehicle, but IMO if they did it was done to ensure law enforcement safety.
Words fail me.
 
  • #870
Just a couple of random thoughts today:

Simple logic tells me it's a lot easier for 6 (well, 5) people in a truck to whip up a conspiracy than for the entire federal government with the help of local LE. I mean, we all know how long it takes the federal government to get stuff done. I'm willing to let the proper authorities take their time with this investigation to ensure it's thorough.

Now that Ammon and the others really have had their freedom taken away by getting themselves locked-up, do you suppose they have a better understanding of the difference between freedom and grazing rights?

Those PNP (or whatever) fellows really should hire an actual attorney to help guide them in their misguided activities. I mean a real attorney - not one that's been disbarred.
 
  • #871
How many people have the choice to pick what law enforcement they will stop for?

Nah, not this one, we're going to this other one. With no consequences?

Watching the video of the truck driving off from the stop reminds me of how LA car chaises are.
 
  • #872
Who knew if the truck had explosives? These people think they can do an armed standoff and, then, think that LEO are going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They cannot have it both ways. The officers have to ensure their own protection.

At that point of the proceedings, it must have been apparent to any and all in the vehicle that it wasn't going anywhere anymore as it was stuck in the snow, and they were surrounded by people with guns. Every single one of the occupants, even the fictitious ones hiding under the seats, were well aware that they had run out of options and fleeing faster than the agents simply wasn't on the table any more. Sooner or later the vehicle was going to get searched so hiding wouldn't have accomplished anything and after all the trouble of putting up two road blocks and once Lavoy got shot, they certainly weren't going to let the rest of them just walk away. So they all knew they had two choices, more or less: surrendering peacefully, or being neutralized less than peacefully. The people who decided to surrender peacefully were able to do so. Their imaginary friends who chose to ignore all the warnings, deny themselves the peaceful option and remain hidden in the vehicle might possibly have had a sadder fate, and get blown to kingdom come. But are their own imaginary bad decisions at all to blame? Refusing to do what LE agents tell you to do when it's obvious that they're not fooling around doesn't always end well.

The people investigating Lavoy's death said it might take 4-6 weeks and they're not going to release any information before it's complete.
 
  • #873
I am hoping that if there are any livestreams tonight that Octobermoon and/or Dr. Know? will locate them and alert us all.

Please keep in mind however that at my house tonight is a very full night of some of my favorite TeeVee shows and I really hate to miss the first showings (although all do have repeats, many repeats).
 
  • #874
Their account of hundreds of shots being fired into the truck certainly doesn't make much sense. They may have mistaken non-lethal rounds for bullets and exaggerated the number, but the story about being shot at during the initial stop is harder to explain. Shawna Cox claims the side mirror arm was hit, so, unless it was a rubber pellet or something, photos of the truck should demonstrate whether she is lying or not.
BBM

I don't think the story about being shot at during the initial stop is hard to explain at all! According to Shawna herself in the interview posted earlier, Ryan Payne stuck his hands out the window before the "shot" to the mirror arm was fired. LE can't necessarily tell if he has a gun in his hand, so if they fired a shot at that point, I can't blame them. What did he expect?!

LE did everything in their power for almost a month to avoid a Waco or Ruby Ridge rerun. Stopping their vehicles away from the refuge minimized the risk of hurting anyone. The actions of the hotheads in this vehicle brought on any shots fired. But their agenda all along has been to provoke a confrontation and cause a backlash against LE, among other things.
JMO
 
  • #875
Cox said in her first interview that Ryan Payne was shot, not Ryan Bundy. She said Ryan P had been shot. Today she corrected that with she thought he had been shot in the wrist when he was adjusting the mirror or something like that. That was at the first stop he was supposedly shot, so was there a shot at the first stop? Possibly not.
 
  • #876
Their account of hundreds of shots being fired into the truck certainly doesn't make much sense. They may have mistaken non-lethal rounds for bullets and exaggerated the number, but the story about being shot at during the initial stop is harder to explain. Shawna Cox claims the side mirror arm was hit, so, unless it was a rubber pellet or something, photos of the truck should demonstrate whether she is lying or not.

The minutiae of what happened is completely irrelevant, IMO. The people in the car had history of threatening law enforcement, were heavily armed on video, and had run a police roadblock. There was serious risk of non-involved citizens in and around Burns getting hurt. LE were entirely within rights to use force given the situation. These women weren't hurt. Kvetching how they might have been is ludicrous.

IMO, they should follow the judge's directives to the letter so they can demonstrate at least some good faith. They should be working full time jobs, as required, and otherwise stay at home nursing their LE-issued ankle bracelets.

Let them quit with the coulda shoulda hadda thoughta bamma....They brought it on. They'd better be glad the authorities weren't more aggressive, 'cos there was plenty of reason to be.

Get to work, ladies. Be nice, or you're gonna end up scrubbing toilets at the local hospital 'cos no one is going to want to have an employee who causes trouble and then kvetches when someone calls them on it.

Then save your pennies for your commissary fund.... :jail:
 
  • #877
As for the people who might have gotten killed if they refused to obey LE orders but didn't because they don't exist, I can't really get very upset about them. But I'm sure they were lovely people and their death was a great loss to us all.

:takeabow: Take a bow! BBM I couldn't have said it better.
 
  • #878
Cox said in her first interview that Ryan Payne was shot, not Ryan Bundy. She said Ryan P had been shot. Today she corrected that with she thought he had been shot in the wrist when he was adjusting the mirror or something like that. That was at the first stop he was supposedly shot, so was there a shot at the first stop? Possibly not.
BBM

You're right that it's quite possible that there was no shot fired at the first stop. But if there was, based on Shawna saying that Ryan Payne stuck his hands out the window to signal someone behind them, I can understand why LE might have shot. Or it could all be a figment of her imagination. I do remember reading the first night that one of the people in the truck had been taken to the hospital for an injury and released. But initial MSM stories often are wrong and change.
 
  • #879
Ryan Bundy was shot in the shoulder that night but not at the first stop.
 
  • #880
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