OR - Portland far-right rally, counter-protest lead to some arrests, injuries, 05 Aug. 2018

[CHICANA]

I suppose they admire brutal terrorist dictators who like to slaughter thousands of innocent people. Not sure how that fits in with "Christianity".

Chile's 9/11: Survivors recall horrors of Pinochet coup, 40 years on - CNN

The US is becoming a very scary place. I couldn't even go to our ancestral home to visit last summer without running into a bunch of tatted up alt right meth heads chasing our car down the road in their ATV's. They have a compound of broken down trailers, junked up yards, flying the Dixie Swastika flag.

How do you know they were alt right ? Did you discuss politics with them ?

 

[whatsnext]

I am in the UK. I have vague recollections of neo-nazis here in the 70s behaving like terrorists throwing bricks through windows of houses where non-white people lived, beating up non-white people, wearing our flag as clothing. I have no desire to go back to those days.

Last night, for the first time, I watched some video of Charlottesville. That wasn't imho 'free speech' that was bullying, very much along the lines of the neo-nazis in 70s Britain.

For those who might be confused, the neo-nazis are the ones who carry swastikas and praise people like Hitler, who agree with nazi policies of 'white supremacy' and being hateful and even violent against people who are not white-skinned. Or even white-skinned enough, because now I'm seeing caucasians from places like Spain or Greece described (by the neo-nazis) as not being white.

What's different in this era to the bad old days in the 70s? The way the neo-nazi groups are making much better use of marketing techniques to confuse people. They're using 'nice' names for their groups. They're not nazis, they're the 'alt-right', they're 'Britain First', they're 'patriots', they're 'Christians'. Their marketing material suggests that they don't hate non-white people, they just want a white homeland for themselves. The groups are more likely to have nicely-spoken leaders who are fluent in doublespeak. But when the neo-nazis who follow these leaders are talking you find out what the real beliefs are, and they are clearly full of Hate First. Hate for people who aren't white enough, people who don't follow Christianity, people who aren't straight, people who are Jewish.

And now the modern neo-nazis are against people who aren't racist! If you're not racist then you're "anti-white" in their doublespeak, you're pro "white genocide"--though where that's happened other than somewhere like during the Holocaust where it was whites killing whites I have no idea.

Have these modern groups really managed to twist things so that the people protesting against nazi beliefs are the nazis? That people protesting against bullies are the bullies? Apparently they have, and I think this might be the scariest aspect of it yet.

If the neo-nazis, by whichever name they choose to call themselves, wish to go back to their 4-chan and their neo-nazi forums where they talk about the Bell Curve and Jews running the world, then they can have their free speech, even if it is hate speech. But when speech is used to bully and intimidate in the streets, when it's used to lie, then it's not free speech, it's hate speech.

Thank you for this post, I agree with you.
Here in Germany we have those modern type of neo Nazis even in the government by now. They reached that goal with very clever strategies, starting as a harmless political party at first, telling the people what they wanted to hear and very, very slowly revealing their real goals in between the lines.
I don't like the violence of Antifa, I will never support violence, period.
But still they are no Nazis IMO.
Would like to explain my opinion better, but for such a serious issue my language skills are just not good enough, I'm afraid
Jmo

 

[CHICANA]

Some might even consider it an indirect threat of violence and murder.

Link to SPLC's information page about these hate groups and the protests in Portland

What you need to know about the upcoming far-right rallies in the Pacific Northwest

I don't know what logical person would see that as an indirect threat of violence and murder.

 

[Jennifer17]

How do you know they were alt right ? Did you discuss politics with them ?

Flying flags with swastika may give you a clue, like the Neo Nazies in Charlottesville.

 

[Amonet]

From what I can see, in the US at the moment, the 'alt-right' mechanism (neo-nazis) are saying that anyone who's against the nazis is by definition 'antifa', and that antifa is by definition a racist hate group who are anti-white and hate free speech.

It is doublespeak.

The KKK were marching with the neo nazis, the white supremacists, and those who were carrying swastikas.

Those who were on the other side (who are apparently being labeled as 'antifa' whether or not they have any affiliation with a group called 'antifa') were people who were black, white, brown, Christian, Jew, other religion, atheist, straight, gay, trans, bi, etc, etc, and the only thing bringing them together was a mutual strong distaste for nazi views. There might have even been a dozen or so who consider themselves communists and who I'd call communists. The nazis marchers call anyone who doesn't support them a 'commie' because it's a word evocative of 'anti-American'.

The nazis provoke in their words and chants in the hope that the counter protesters will be provoked into using their pepper sprays in view of the media. Meanwhile what are the white supremacist group members getting up to when they're not marching? They're being their normal selves, encouraging things like Dylan Roof-style massacres, and then they'll say "we're not violent, look at us when the media's watching and we can prove it".

Maybe one could argue that a person walking down the street going about their business while wearing a white hood or a swastika on their arm is doing nothing wrong. But when they're thousands strong, using bullying and aggressive chants and motions, then I think that isn't free speech any longer, it's bullying. It's the true racism and bigotry.

Okay, fine if people dislike the actions of some of the counter-protesters (who in the most are simply trying to stand up for the locals and say that we don't all share the views of the nazis regardless of their claims that we do).

But I would at least like more education in our countries as to how to tell what is nazi and what is not, and what the nazis/neo-nazis stand for. That they're not really friendly to Jewish people and only hate blacks and gays, or that they really are the 'true' patriots. The only place in the world where a nazi could be a 'true patriot' is nazi Germany. Not that it would make it okay that they only hate blacks and gays and Muslims and not Jews...

But listen to the nazi guy talking here. Maybe he doesn't call himself a nazi, maybe he prefers white supremacist or alt-right, but I think it's simpler to let his beliefs guide how we label him, and his beliefs are clearly nazi-like. He is so offensive how he talks about President Trump's daughter marrying a man who is Jewish. I find it vile and I truly believe this kind of talk is the truth underneath these nicely-named movements and their marketing of themselves as patriots who are just trying to stand up for the poor beleaguered white man (who's carrying five guns about his body on a peaceful march and has nazi symbols decorating his body).

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO.

FBI, Homeland Security warn of more ‘antifa’ attacks

 

[flourish]

I don't know what logical person would see that as an indirect threat of violence and murder.

Oh. I'm not sure what specifically was being referred to as a threat. The linked article states, "
This weekend, the threat of violence looms again.

Emboldened by the June 30 fighting, more Proud Boys and other far-right activists have stated their intention to attend. And the far-right web forums are filled with paranoid rhetoric and talk about guns and other weapons."

That sounds pretty threatening?

I'm maybe misunderstanding and thank you all for clarification on advance

 

[Amonet]

Same thing is going on here by Antifa. Hate speech is hate speech.

I hate murderers. I hate rapists. I hate nazis.

Is that hate speech?

 

[flourish]

If i was an original "member" of antiafa, I'd probably want to make it more structured with a clear mission statement, and clear up all the confusion.

 

[Jennifer17]

Antifa is as full of hatred and bigotry as the KKK. They are just another hate group. Always judge a group by it's ACTIONS, not it's WORDS.

And yet only the Nazis at Charlottesville killed and injured people.

 

[Amonet]

It's fascinating how there are opposing statements in msm about these groups, antifa in particular. As far as actions, well, I know for certain that Nazis are mean and hurtful. My jury's still out on anti-fa, because there seems to be such different information everywhere. If they're what their name implies, cool, but where they are so loosely structured it's difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain if its members' actions are representative of the group and its intentions.

And there might well be some elements who choose to go on the side of the counter-protesters hoping for a fight. But I do not believe that makes everyone who's against the nazi bully marchers a nazi or bigot or .

 

[flourish]

I hate murderers. I hate rapists. I hate nazis.

Is that hate speech?

If it is, well, it shouldn't be. There is a difference between hating people due to things they can't change and don't reflect character, like skin tone, and hating people because of they're cruelty to others, which is a choice which reflects character...or lack thereof.

 

[Gardenista]

It can't be said any better than the quote I posted earlier

Antifa is not a friend of democracy. It despises democracy, and equally despises those who believe in democracy. There’s not a spit of difference between them and the neo-Nazis — except, and it’s a big except — they have supporters outside the coven.

 

[Amonet]

Thank you for this post, I agree with you.
Here in Germany we have those modern type of neo Nazis even in the government by now. They reached that goal with very clever strategies, starting as a harmless political party at first, telling the people what they wanted to hear and very, very slowly revealing their real goals in between the lines.
I don't like the violence of Antifa, I will never support violence, period.
But still they are no Nazis IMO.
Would like to explain my opinion better, but for such a serious issue my language skills are just not good enough, I'm afraid
Jmo

I also don't support violence.

 

[flourish]

It can't be said any better than the quote I posted earlier

Antifa is not a friend of democracy. It despises democracy, and equally despises those who believe in democracy. There’s not a spit of difference between them and the neo-Nazis — except, and it’s a big except — they have supporters outside the coven.

Except there are opposing opinions. So it's obviously not that clear!

If they're on the same side why are they fighting?

 

[human]

I am in the UK. I have vague recollections of neo-nazis here in the 70s behaving like terrorists throwing bricks through windows of houses where non-white people lived, beating up non-white people, wearing our flag as clothing. I have no desire to go back to those days.

Last night, for the first time, I watched some video of Charlottesville. That wasn't imho 'free speech' that was bullying, very much along the lines of the neo-nazis in 70s Britain.

For those who might be confused, the neo-nazis are the ones who carry swastikas and praise people like Hitler, who agree with nazi policies of 'white supremacy' and being hateful and even violent against people who are not white-skinned. Or even white-skinned enough, because now I'm seeing caucasians from places like Spain or Greece described (by the neo-nazis) as not being white.

What's different in this era to the bad old days in the 70s? The way the neo-nazi groups are making much better use of marketing techniques to confuse people. They're using 'nice' names for their groups. They're not nazis, they're the 'alt-right', they're 'Britain First', they're 'patriots', they're 'Christians'. Their marketing material suggests that they don't hate non-white people, they just want a white homeland for themselves. The groups are more likely to have nicely-spoken leaders who are fluent in doublespeak. But when the neo-nazis who follow these leaders are talking you find out what the real beliefs are, and they are clearly full of Hate First. Hate for people who aren't white enough, people who don't follow Christianity, people who aren't straight, people who are Jewish.

And now the modern neo-nazis are against people who aren't racist! If you're not racist then you're "anti-white" in their doublespeak, you're pro "white genocide"--though where that's happened other than somewhere like during the Holocaust where it was whites killing whites I have no idea.

Have these modern groups really managed to twist things so that the people protesting against nazi beliefs are the nazis? That people protesting against bullies are the bullies? Apparently they have, and I think this might be the scariest aspect of it yet.

If the neo-nazis, by whichever name they choose to call themselves, wish to go back to their 4-chan and their neo-nazi forums where they talk about the Bell Curve and Jews running the world, then they can have their free speech, even if it is hate speech. But when speech is used to bully and intimidate in the streets, when it's used to lie, then it's not free speech, it's hate speech.

This is so excellent!

 

[whatsnext]

Want to add that I am having some friends who belong to Antifa. They have strong beliefs and are ready to defend themselves when they are being attacked by Neonazis and such scum.
But they don't start the violence.
I know that other Antifa groups do, I'm not that naive.
Jmo

 

[glamourkitty1922]

Here is a UK take on it
US security agencies label Antifa 'domestic terrorists'

 

[human]

If is mind boggling to know that so many died fighting the Nazi’s and now they are resurrected .

I have seen some stories on the net about guys who were KKK or Nazis turning over a new leaf after they met Muslim people or people who are not white.

It seems that people who are the most racist are those who do not know anyone personally who is not just like them. A lot of fear of the unknown.

Many are raised in families that do not appear to have love in them for the children so there is a big lack of self esteem.

 

[Amonet]

Want to add that I am having some friends who belong to Antifa. They have strong beliefs and are ready to defend themselves when they are being attacked by Neonazis and such scum.
But they don't start the violence.
I know that other Antifa groups do, I'm not that naive.
Jmo

Those who start violence become the problem.

But when there's a march of bullies chanting hateful things going through a non-white area of a town, then I support people standing up with anti-nazi signs and chanting peaceful slogans and saying they hate the KKK and things like that. But keep it peaceful. Do not physically attack those who are not physically attacking you. Turn the other cheek where it's possible before you escalate violence.