Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

[aftermath]

How about firing a gun without pulling the trigger, a la Tasha's

I'm not sure that is the same thing. He physically could pull the trigger but said that he didn't.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not sure that is the same thing. He physically could pull the trigger but said that he didn't.

He claimed something that wasn't physically possible. That is the similarity.

 

[aftermath]

He claimed something that wasn't physically possible. That is the similarity.

Ah okay. But I was saying that I don't think he would claim to be able to do something that he couldn't physically do.

 

[lithgow1]

Ah okay. But I was saying that I don't think he would claim to be able to do something that he couldn't physically do.

He seemed quite willing to do the opposite though - IIRC he claimed to be much more unstable on his stumps than videos showed him to be in order to bolster the vulnerability aspect of his version.

 

[mrjitty]

Mr Fossil - what is your view on the timing for the 4 shots?

Do you have them placed before 3:15:51 or after?

Rereading Masipa's judgement - it seems alarming that she creates a timeline from so many clocks without even a comment on how accurate they all are?

I see at least the following

1. Stipp's Clock
2. Security phone Log (is this phone records or central telco records?)
3. OP's Telco records
4. Charl Johnson's iPhone call log

Why for example is there no discussion of reconciliation between security phone log and OPs phone? Are these an exact match?

How I would love to see the phone exhibits!

 

[aftermath]

He seemed quite willing to do the opposite though - IIRC he claimed to be much more unstable on his stumps than videos showed him to be in order to bolster the vulnerability aspect of his version.

I think the videos proved his vulnerability. He never claimed to be virtually immobile. The video showed how he had to keep moving to retain balance and that what he described as running was more like a fast walk.

 

[mrjitty]

I think the videos proved his vulnerability. He never claimed to be virtually immobile. The video showed how he had to keep moving to retain balance and that what he described as running was more like a fast walk.

The video completely contradicted his version!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

BBM Are you sure? He certainly seems comfortable telling lies as this article shows, here's just two excerpts from it:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...ied-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva

"Pistorius claimed last year — before the shooting — to have bought himself a McLaren supercar.
He was in fact driving a demo model"

"Pistorius claimed in a magazine interview to have owned a house in Gemona in Italy, where he trained. This was exposed as a lie when he told his bail hearing he did not own property in other countries."

bbm
When OP murdered Reeva, he was negotiating the purchase of a supercar or the negotiations had been completed, but he was about the negotiation, whether he would receive tax relief as a disabled person. If I remember well, I saw it on twitter (supercar business of OP's best friend JD).

When the attribute "disabled" is benefical to him, then he is a disabled person, otherwise NOT. We saw it during trial.

 

[aftermath]

The video completely contradicted his version!

How? I don't think it did

 

[lithgow1]

I think the videos proved his vulnerability. He never claimed to be virtually immobile. The video showed how he had to keep moving to retain balance and that what he described as running was more like a fast walk.

Where in my post did I say 'virtually immobile'? Your words, not mine. My point is he claimed to be less mobile than he is in actual fact. So underplaying his mobility, or lying in other words.

 

[aftermath]

Where in my post did I say 'virtually immobile'? Your words, not mine. My point is he claimed to be less mobile than he is in actual fact. So underplaying his mobility, or lying in other words.

Okay, so what did he claim regarding his mobility (or lack of it) that the video exposed as false?

 

[lithgow1]

Okay, so what did he claim regarding his mobility (or lack of it) that the video exposed as false?

Here ya go. If you are arguing that he was quite unsteady then how do you reconcile that with his decision to approach the bathroom in such a vulnerable state when he could have easily had his legs on in 30 or so seconds, putting him on an equal footing with the so-called intruder? The second article is particularly interesting in relation to this topic IMO though I can't recall at this moment exactly when in the chain of events he put his prosthetics on.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pistori...tioned-after-video-leaked-20140707-zszjb.html

https://phil51089.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/oscar-pistorius-mobility-without-prosthetics/

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes.

So while it might be possible for her heart to be beating 10mins later - more than likely not

Just one more circumstantial evidence point.

Of course we also know that OP had to wait to make sure she was dead.

Possible, as we know, but as you say not likely to be 10 minutes because RS had an artery severed and severe bleeding elsewhere so her blood pressure and oxygen levels in the blood would have fallen quite quickly. However, If she was shot at around 3.16 ish (if only all the clocks/telephones had been checked) there could have been weak arterial spurts as she was carried downstairs BUT if, as OP claims the first sounds killed RS, she would have been very dead and no chance of an arterial spurt.

However Roux and OP insist the first sounds were at 03.14. Using Johnson's timing to back up their evidence but then they completely disregard the first sounds +- 3am with no real explanation at all - almost as though they never happened. How did Masipa let that pass by with no comment? Surely she heard the Stipp's evidence or was she daydreaming. I really think this trial was way above her abilities and I think I am right in saying that although she had trial experience it was not at this level.

As a point of interest if a femoral artery is severed (with a straight cut because a diagonal cut tends to collapse a bit and help stem the flow) it takes (on average) roughly 7 minutes to bleed out, a brachial artery a bit less but a severed carotid artery will kill you in 1.5 minutes [unless there is intervention (stemming) with these injuries, of course].

As some members have pointed out Sayman said she only took a few breaths and her wounds were fatal (and I am sure he was right) but we do know the heart can continue to beat until the oxygen in the blood is depleted when the heart then stops. With Reeva, as her injuries were so severe and with extreme bleeding, she may only have had a heart beat for a few minutes at the very most.

 

[mrjitty]

Possible, as we know, but as you say not likely to be 10 minutes because RS had an artery severed and severe bleeding elsewhere so her blood pressure and oxygen levels in the blood would have fallen quite quickly. However, If she was shot at around 3.16 ish (if only all the clocks/telephones had been checked) there could have been weak arterial spurts as she was carried downstairs BUT if, as OP claims the first sounds killed RS, she would have been very dead and no chance of an arterial spurt.

However Roux and OP insist the first sounds were at 03.14. Using Johnson's timing to back up their evidence but then they completely disregard the first sounds +- 3am with no real explanation at all - almost as though they never happened. How did Masipa let that pass by with no comment? Surely she heard the Stipp's evidence or was she daydreaming. I really think this trial was way above her abilities and I think I am right in saying that although she had trial experience it was not at this level.

As a point of interest if a femoral artery is severed (with a straight cut because a diagonal cut tends to collapse a bit and help stem the flow) it takes (on average) roughly 7 minutes to bleed out, a brachial artery a bit less but a severed carotid artery will kill you in 1.5 minutes [unless there is intervention (stemming) with these injuries, of course].

As some members have pointed out Sayman said she only took a few breaths and her wounds were fatal (and I am sure he was right) but we do know the heart can continue to beat until the oxygen in the blood is depleted when the heart then stops. With Reeva, as her injuries were so severe and with extreme bleeding, she may only have had a heart beat for a few minutes at the very most.

BiB

This is what I mean about how the defence maintained different timings depending on the situation

A couple of mins (OP), 3 mins (Roux timeline per Johnson) 4-5mins (OP)

In particular OP places himself inside the toilet “A COUPLE OF MINUTES (2) AFTER THE INCIDENT”.

The context of his evidence when he said that makes it clear the word “INCIDENT” means the firing of the shots.

But how can that be possible?

 

[aftermath]

Here ya go. If you are arguing that he was quite unsteady then how do you reconcile that with his decision to approach the bathroom in such a vulnerable state when he could have easily had his legs on in 30 or so seconds, putting him on an equal footing with the so-called intruder? The second article is particularly interesting in relation to this topic IMO though I can't recall at this moment exactly when in the chain of events he put his prosthetics on.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pistori...tioned-after-video-leaked-20140707-zszjb.html

https://phil51089.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/oscar-pistorius-mobility-without-prosthetics/

Thanks for those links. They don't prove that he lied about his mobility though. Pistorius described himself running/rushing/walking. Derman explained that what Pistorius desribes as running (on his stumps), is not the same as what we would describe as able-bodied running. He also elaborated why it wasn't really running in the most obvious sense. This was evident in the video.

Pistorius also explained that he had mobility on stumps but that he used momentum to keep balance when moving and had to lean on things to retain balance when standing in one spot - also clearly depicted in the video.

It is not the defence who have been misleading about pistorius's level of mobility. Rather it has been the media and to an extent the state who have been misleading, by suggesting that he widely exaggerated his lack of mobility and vulnerability. The video did not show him doing anything that he claimed he couldnt physicslly do. I think there is a bigger discussion about perceptions of disability to be had at some point.

As for why he didn't spend the 30seconds needed to put on his prosthetics, if only he had! Then he might have noticed Reeva not in the bed when he sat down on it to put them on. He would have seen she wasn't there when he put the light on to see what he was doing. And if- by some chance -he had managed to put them on in the dark and hadn't noticed she wasn't in the room, then he might at least have felt less vulnerable, less trapped and unable to escape quickly, and less panicked when the open window and subsequent noises confirmed the presence of an 'intruder'. Instead he might have felt confident enough to cover the door with his gun whilst security /police were called, or he might have felt more able to make a speedy escape down the stairs with Reeva(and would have noticed her missing on returning to the bedroom).

But on his version he didn't stop to put the legs on because having heard the noise of the window and therefore believing that an intruder was only metres away, he did not know if he had the time, as in the thirty seconds it would take to put his legs on, (possibly longer in the dark), the intruder could easily have made it to the bedroom to attack them both.

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

But on his version he didn't stop to put the legs on because having heard the noise of the window and therefore believing that an intruder was only metres away, he did not know if he had the time, as in the thirty seconds it would take to put his legs on, (possibly longer in the dark), the intruder could easily have made it to the bedroom to attack them both.

BIB - the dark obviously didn't bother him one bit, as he managed to move from the balcony to the bed to retrieve his gun without tripping or stubbing anything - a hard thing to do no matter how well you know the layout of your house. Plus, since we now know Reeva was awake and had talked to him (a fact left out of his affidavit...) it would have taken seconds for them both to leave. A much safer option than charging blindly down the passage when he had no clue if the 'intruder' was armed and coming towards him.

 

[lithgow1]

Thanks for the response but IMO his version, both in the details and the big picture, makes no logical sense. Re the bit snipped from your post below, it is just not what one would do. If you thought your house was being invaded you would at least confirm with your awake partner who you had just spoken to that they had also heard the noise. If you were so fearful but had decided to go confront the intruder on your stumps anyway, you would confirm with your awake partner that they were calling the police, that they knew what was happening, that you were both on the same page, the cavalry was coming etc. Yes, you can come up with justifications for all the illogical (not to mention seemingly counter productive) decisions he made but, as you know, I have a different theory - it is all made up and so his lack of mobility was played up in order to bolster the fearful aspect. But again, thanks.

But on his version he didn't stop to put the legs on because having heard the noise of the window and therefore believing that an intruder was only metres away, he did not know if he had the time, as in the thirty seconds it would take to put his legs on, (possibly longer in the dark), the intruder could easily have made it to the bedroom to attack them both.

 

[mrjitty]

Interesting Masipa's own timeline has the shots vaguely at 3.12-3.14 - seemingly allowing for OP's action to either take less than 3 mins or more than 5!

This again illustrates the level of double think required

OP testifies to make it a "couple of mins" - which is really necessary if she is not to be stone cold dead

But on the other hand a couple of mins doesn't work with Stipp's corroborated actions because they need to be on the phone at 3:15:51 but Dr Stipp needs to wake up, check at both balconies etc etc.

Same problem for Mike N

Shots first really does not work.

 

[LemonMousse]

Mr Fossil - what is your view on the timing for the 4 shots?

Do you have them placed before 3:15:51 or after?

Rereading Masipa's judgement - it seems alarming that she creates a timeline from so many clocks without even a comment on how accurate they all are?

I see at least the following

1. Stipp's Clock
2. Security phone Log (is this phone records or central telco records?)
3. OP's Telco records
4. Charl Johnson's iPhone call log

Why for example is there no discussion of reconciliation between security phone log and OPs phone? Are these an exact match?

How I would love to see the phone exhibits!

Forgive me for forgetting exact timings (it's been a while) but the whole timeline debacle rests with two errors - easily spottable to anyone and everyone except Masipa and her "assistants".

1: Stipp's 2/3 calls to security.

He thought he'd made two calls to security...one after the first bangs, one after the second.

The security call log showed that he did make two calls....the first at 3.15 which lasted some seconds as he talked to Mr Baba and the second at @3.27 (registering 0 seconds) when he was already at OP's house.

Roux made MUCH of this, and basically called this professional doctor, who'd never met OP before, a liar who wanted to help the state.

I don't think Dr Stipp is a liar. I think he did try to call security soon after the first bangs and couldn't get an answer. Either he accidentally misdialled or security weren't there to answer. In the latter case, no ansaphone kicked in, so no connection of any kind was made in order to show up later on the official logs. That's why there was no record of it. Although, there possibly would have been on Stipp's phone, but no one (including Stipp) checked.

The 3.27ish call was obviously a pocket dial - or an inadvertant pressing of last number redial as he stood on the forecourt with Stander. Possibly, voicemail was then on the security line which captured the fleeting 0 second call.

In any event, Roux used this confusion to try and prove that the 3.15 call happened after the first bangs. "Yes, Dr Stipp, you did make two calls. Your first, you say, was made after the first bangs. And since the first call we see you making is at 3.15, then the first bangs must have been just before then. And you say your second was just after the second bangs? Well, you were already at OP's house when that aborted call happened...so you, Dr Stipp, are a big fat liar".

Clearly, Stipp's first call went astray - but I do believe he made it and it was soon after the first bangs. The second bangs occured while he was still frantically trying to get through to someone - managing to at 3.15. He made no further calls after that, as he had no reason to.

If you accept his evidence, then this is proof that all the bangs were over by 3.15.

2) There was never any independent verification of the time of Johnson's call. He said he made his call at 3.16 (?) and heard shots moments later.

If this was actually true, then it contradicts the closer Stipp who said the last bangs were shortly before 3.15.

The thing is, he could only provide this time from his own log. It was not from any official record and had not been synched with anything - so could have very easily have been wrong. He said that HIMSELF on the stand - he specifically asked Roux (who avoided answering) whether the time had been checked with a central server. Not only that, he was unable to say whether the time he gave represented the beginning or the end of the call....quite significant given that he was on the ohone for a while having called the wrong security office.

All it would take is for Johnson to be one minute out and the whole jigsaw puzzle fits together in terms of times and bangs.

Stipps hear bangs
Stipps and Johnsons hear female screams and man shouting
Johnsons hear man AND woman screaming help
Stipp tries to call security
Johnson calls wrong security
Stipps, Johnson, Mr Mike and VderM hear bangs
Stipp reaches security at 3.15
Mr Mike calls security at 3.16
Stipp hears male "help" coming from left of where screams were earlier coming from
Everyone hears a male crying loudly (Mrs VderM thinks it's female NO ONE ELSE DOES)
VderM calls security (must have been after this) shortly before seeing vehicles pull up

It must have happened like this.

If not, then we have to ask why Dr Stipp heard bangs and female screams and did NOTHING until the second bangs...some minutes later. The same Dr Stipp who risked his life 15 minutes later by going alone into the house did NOTHING when he heard a female screaming, "out of her mind in terror"? He just stood on the balcony scratching his head, did he?

No, he grabbed his phone and started calling. If you believe him on this, then you HAVE to believe that the second bangs were at 3.15. Which proves that Pistorius is a murderer.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Forgive me for forgetting exact timings (it's been a while) but the whole timeline debacle rests with two errors - easily spottable to anyone and everyone except Masipa and her "assistants".

1: Stipp's 2/3 calls to security.

He thought he'd made two calls to security...one after the first bangs, one after the second.

The security call log showed that he did make two calls....the first at 3.15 which lasted some seconds as he talked to Mr Baba and the second at @3.27 (registering 0 seconds) when he was already at OP's house.

Roux made MUCH of this, and basically called this professional doctor, who'd never met OP before, a liar who wanted to help the state.

I don't think Dr Stipp is a liar. I think he did try to call security soon after the first bangs and couldn't get an answer. Either he accidentally misdialled or security weren't there to answer. In the latter case, no ansaphone kicked in, so no connection of any kind was made in order to show up later on the official logs. That's why there was no record of it. Although, there possibly would have been on Stipp's phone, but no one (including Stipp) checked.

The 3.27ish call was obviously a pocket dial - or an inadvertant pressing of last number redial as he stood on the forecourt with Stander. Possibly, voicemail was then on the security line which captured the fleeting 0 second call.

In any event, Roux used this confusion to try and prove that the 3.15 call happened after the first bangs. "Yes, Dr Stipp, you did make two calls. Your first, you say, was made after the first bangs. And since the first call we see you making is at 3.15, then the first bangs must have been just before then. And you say your second was just after the second bangs? Well, you were already at OP's house when that aborted call happened...so you, Dr Stipp, are a big fat liar".

Clearly, Stipp's first call went astray - but I do believe he made it and it was soon after the first bangs. The second bangs occured while he was still frantically trying to get through to someone - managing to at 3.15. He made no further calls after that, as he had no reason to.

If you accept his evidence, then this is proof that all the bangs were over by 3.15.

2) There was never any independent verification of the time of Johnson's call. He said he made his call at 3.16 (?) and heard shots moments later.

If this was actually true, then it contradicts the closer Stipp who said the last bangs were shortly before 3.15.

The thing is, he could only provide this time from his own log. It was not from any official record and had not been synched with anything - so could have very easily have been wrong. He said that HIMSELF on the stand - he specifically asked Roux (who avoided answering) whether the time had been checked with a central server. Not only that, he was unable to say whether the time he gave represented the beginning or the end of the call....quite significant given that he was on the ohone for a while having called the wrong security office.

All it would take is for Johnson to be one minute out and the whole jigsaw puzzle fits together in terms of times and bangs.

Stipps hear bangs
Stipps and Johnsons hear female screams and man shouting
Johnsons hear man AND woman screaming help
Stipp tries to call security
Johnson calls wrong security
Stipps, Johnson, Mr Mike and VderM hear bangs
Stipp reaches security at 3.15
Mr Mike calls security at 3.16
Stipp hears male "help" coming from left of where screams were earlier coming from
Everyone hears a male crying loudly (Mrs VderM thinks it's female NO ONE ELSE DOES)
VderM calls security (must have been after this) shortly before seeing vehicles pull up

It must have happened like this.

If not, then we have to ask why Dr Stipp heard bangs and female screams and did NOTHING until the second bangs...some minutes later. The same Dr Stipp who risked his life 15 minutes later by going alone into the house did NOTHING when he heard a female screaming, "out of her mind in terror"? He just stood on the balcony scratching his head, did he?

No, he grabbed his phone and started calling. If you believe him on this, then you HAVE to believe that the second bangs were at 3.15. Which proves that Pistorius is a murderer.

I remember Mr Stipp first called a wrong (former) security (which exactly, I don't know), then he noticed the mistake. That security must have had his call on the log - too late now.