Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[Interested Bystander]

And then he, characteristically, agreed to the 20 km radius the judge decided.

I have just listened to the bail hearing and Nel does not actually verbally agree to the 20 km radius. He wanted 5 to 10 km at the most. When the judge returned to read the conditions he clearly said it was up to him to determine them and he stated a 20 km radius without reference to Nel. The judge continued without interruption to address OP. So, as far as I can see, Nel did not agree (unless it was in chambers) to a 20km radius. It was a fait acomplis.

I did wonder whether the judge actually did mean a 10 km radius but erroneously added two radii together equalling 20 km without realising that by stating 20km he was doubling the radius and thus mistakenly altered Nel's suggested limit of 10km radius from a central point but we shall never know.

 

[jilly]

I have just listened to the bail hearing and Nel does not actually verbally agree to the 20 km radius. He wanted 5 to 10 km at the most. When the judge returned to read the conditions he clearly said it was up to him to determine them and he stated a 20 km radius without reference to Nel. Nel was not asked for an opinion on this and the judge continued without interruption to address OP. So, as far as I can see, Nel did not agree (unless it was in chambers) to a 20km radius. It was a fait acomplis.

I did wonder whether the judge actually did mean a 10 km radius but erroneously added two radii together equalling 20 km without realising that by stating 20km he was doubling the radius and thus mistakenly altered Nel's suggested limit of 10km radius from a central point but we shall never know.

I've never heard of a Judge over ruling when attorneys agree.

Was this in the High Crt?

 

[Trotterly]

I have just listened to the bail hearing and Nel does not actually verbally agree to the 20 km radius. He wanted 5 to 10 km at the most. When the judge returned to read the conditions he clearly said it was up to him to determine them and he stated a 20 km radius without reference to Nel. Nel was not asked for an opinion on this and the judge continued without interruption to address OP. So, as far as I can see, Nel did not agree (unless it was in chambers) to a 20km radius. It was a fait acomplis.

I did wonder whether the judge actually did mean a 10 km radius but erroneously added two radii together equalling 20 km without realising that by stating 20km he was doubling the radius and thus mistakenly altered Nel's suggested limit of 10km radius from a central point but we shall never know.

Nel seemed unprepared for the possibility of having a radius at all. But surely this cannot be an unusual occurrence?

He should have at least had the locale of the nearest airport to hand if he was concerned about a flight risk and when asked about the radius pointed out to the judge about the airport. OP's range would not have been significantly changed.

Once again he seemed to be out foxed by Roux.

 

[cottonweaver]

Ty .... Your last sentence about "this will run & run" (which, of course, it already has), made me think of something else. I'm now wondering what the possibility is that Roux is trying to delay things for another couple of years in order that, when OP finally is sentenced, all this additional time he'll be spending under house arrest will get deducted from his new prison sentence and then he simply "walks away." .... Gads, I think I've entered the Twilight Zone now!

It was soozie who likened it to Twilight Zone. But foxbluff, I think you have hit the nail on the head in general, I am sad to say. The longer it goes on, the more Appeals- he may get lucky,and all the while the case starts to fade from the public's consciousness etc.

Only thing that cheers me is that technically, the time spent at home sunbathing by the pool,now til April+..... popping in to the Waterkloof Country Club for his morning macchiato....none of it counts as such as he isn't on house arrest.

So instead, let's take heart and think he is putting off the inevitable and squandering how own time instead. :jail:

 

[cottonweaver]

I did wonder whether the judge actually did mean a 10 km radius but erroneously added two radii together equalling 20 km without realising that by stating 20km he was doubling the radius and thus mistakenly altered Nel's suggested limit of 10km radius from a central point but we shall never know.

RSBM

Oh my.....:facepalm:. yes it's possible isn't it as he fluffed over the cell number and looked pretty flustered.
PS. Remember Judge's look of disdain when Nel bartered for 5km!

 

[cottonweaver]

There is a domestic airport to the north of Uncle Arnold's called Wonderboom. 19km by road.

Just google map it if you want to see where it is.

Oh dear - I didn't realise that, I only had a cursory look online. Maybe SAAF base can shoot his flight down when he takes off.:facepalm:

I also agree that I expected Nel to have some max distances ready calculated as that can't be a unique suggestion by a bail judge.

But disagree State were outfoxed by Roux, outweighed by the Judge only, Judge made it clear why he didn't agree to the terms discussed by State & Def in advance, they were too onerous for all the reasons he gave.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I've never heard of a Judge over ruling when attorneys agree.

Was this in the High Crt?

The hearing is on You Tube. If you search for the SABC Pistorius Bail Hearing and then search the time bar for when the Judge returns to the court you will hear what he says. I am using an iPad and since the last update it is very difficult to post the relevant place OR it might be more correct to say I have not yet sussed it. It used to be easy. Maybe I will do a search tomorrow to see if I can overcome this but it is getting on for 1am in the UK and I am actually in bed LOL.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Nel seemed unprepared for the possibility of having a radius at all. But surely this cannot be an unusual occurrence?

He should have at least had the locale of the nearest airport to hand if he was concerned about a flight risk and when asked about the radius pointed out to the judge about the airport. OP's range would not have been significantly changed.

Once again he seemed to be out foxed by Roux.

You are right but only because the terms had been agreed with Roux before the hearing but not about out foxing Roux. I think he was also surprised, hence the smiles after the judge had finished his terms. I don't think anyone was expecting the judge to intervene.

 

[Sherbert]

I've never heard of a Judge over ruling when attorneys agree.

Was this in the High Crt?

Yes, it was. I feel that he wanted to demonstrate his authority by not simply rubber-stamping the agreement. Not a thought for Reeva's parents, sadly.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of judges in the UK who also behave like this.

I've just had a quick look at OP's affidavit. Imo, Roux has done a pretty thorough job by raising lots of queries. One thing that stood out for me is that he is querying the SCA's introduction of a rational component to the intention element of PPD.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Couriermail (paywall) after GBC (murdered his wife) had won an appeal:

 

[Interested Bystander]

OT

Does anyone use an iPad to post here? Until the last update I had no problems. I would copy whatever I wanted (this maybe three different items, not necessarily in an original group), such as the url of a newspaper, the title or subtitle and text from somewhere within the article. I copied and pasted each item into Notes, edited it, selected all, copied and then pasted into WS. This is not working well for me now, although the paste function will work for parts of my selection, something is missing every time even though I ensure all sections are clearly selected. Is there a better way to do this? I haven't managed to find any info by Googling!

 

[Really?]

Smarmy git......get back in prison....murderer...:jail:

 

[mrjitty]

Well, allow me to explain it to you-- if it's hot and stuffy, and the A/C isn't working, you might want some cross ventilation with the OPEN bedroom balcony doors.

I am surprised more was not made of this.

But he clearly had the fan set up to draw air from the open doors, and the bathroom window open to create the cross wind

This is quite a normal set up

Indeed I do this in my apartment and a clear breeze flows through the place if you open the balcony door at one end, and open the window on the opposite side of the house

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, it was. I feel that he wanted to demonstrate his authority by not simply rubber-stamping the agreement. Not a thought for Reeva's parents, sadly.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of judges in the UK who also behave like this.

I've just had a quick look at OP's affidavit. Imo, Roux has done a pretty thorough job by raising lots of queries. One thing that stood out for me is that he is querying the SCA's introduction of a rational component to the intention element of PPD.

That was the main thing I picked up on as well.

That was new on me - so I wondered where it came from?

On the whole though, people are deluded if they thought the SCA was going to allow a low hurdle for PPD

Self Defence is already a tough standard, and putative self defence will also need to be tough for policy reasons

Otherwise every killer will claim self defence on the basis that they "thought" this that or the other thing. (i.e. whatever they can make up afterwards)

 

[Interested Bystander]

Re my post 227. In my sleepy stupor I posted the wrong timing where the judge states he is of a mind to alter the agreed conditions of bail which suggests he was at liberty to do so. You can find it at 16.40 minutes. Even though the conditions were agreed prior to the court hearing, Roux slyly seems to introduce a suggestion that the magisterial area of Tshwane Pretorius be used as the travel limit. That he states is 30 or 40 km. This may be where the judge gets his 20km radius. The judge most definitely favoured Roux and OP, even suggesting that the terms should not be a punishment! Well worth a listen if you have the time.

[video=youtube;MqDNrDyXFYE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqDNrDyXFYE[/video]

 

[soozieqtips]

I am surprised more was not made of this.

But he clearly had the fan set up to draw air from the open doors, and the bathroom window open to create the cross wind

This is quite a normal set up

Indeed I do this in my apartment and a clear breeze flows through the place if you open the balcony door at one end, and open the window on the opposite side of the house

Do you remember if he was ever asked why he closed the balcony doors if he couldn't sleep because he was so warm? I know he had to create some time for Reeva to conveniently and silently slip out of bed without him noticing, but closing the doors made it even warmer.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if a judge can be excused if they are known to be a fan of the killer? I ask because here in the UK, a well-known soap star was up on charges of sexual abuse and the judge told the jury that if any of them couldn't separate the actor from the real person, they should excuse themselves (obviously because they wouldn't be able to be neutral). It struck me that the bail judge went out of his way to make sure OP wasn't punished too harshly, despite a much more serious new verdict of murder.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Do you remember if he was ever asked why he closed the balcony doors if he couldn't sleep because he was so warm? I know he had to create some time for Reeva to conveniently and silently slip out of bed without him noticing, but closing the doors made it even warmer.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if a judge can be excused if they are known to be a fan of the killer? I ask because here in the UK, a well-known soap star was up on charges of sexual abuse and the judge told the jury that if any of them couldn't separate the actor from the real person, they should excuse themselves (obviously because they wouldn't be able to be neutral). It struck me that the bail judge went out of his way to make sure OP wasn't punished too harshly, despite a much more serious new verdict of murder.

The following links will give the temperature for the 13/14[SUP]th[/SUP] February 2014 (33/34C). Unfortunately the daily graphs no longer appear on Wunderground to give a precise temperature at a given time but it seems there was a drop of around 16-17C at night/early morning. I am unsure whether that drop would be considered cold enough to need to close the windows.

This drop in temperature is really interesting with respect to the way sound travels. There would almost certainly have been a very warm level above the cooler ground level which would have reinforced the science involved in sound travelling long distances under these conditions.

http://www.wunderground.com/history..._statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

http://www.wunderground.com/history..._statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

 

[soozieqtips]

The following links will give the temperature for the 13/14[SUP]th[/SUP] February 2014 (33/34C). Unfortunately the daily graphs no longer appear on Wunderground to give a precise temperature at a given time but it seems there was a drop of around 16-17C at night/early morning. I am unsure whether that drop would be considered cold enough to need to close the windows.

This drop in temperature is really interesting with respect to the way sound travels. There would almost certainly have been a very warm level above the cooler ground level which would have reinforced the science involved in sound travelling long distances under these conditions.

http://www.wunderground.com/history..._statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

http://www.wunderground.com/history..._statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

Thanks for that IB.

BIB - I thought OP said he couldn't sleep because it was too warm? Do I have false memory syndrome?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thanks for that IB.

BIB - I thought OP said he couldn't sleep because it was too warm? Do I have false memory syndrome?

It was a very warm night. Not only did OP have his doors open but the Stipps had the door on Annette's side of the bed and the door near the balcony open. Carice Viljoen had her door open leading onto the balcony.

 

[soozieqtips]

It was a very warm night. Not only did OP have his doors open but the Stipps had the door on Annette's side of the bed and the door near the balcony open. Carice Vijoen had her door open leading onto the balcony.

Yes. You can see how terrified everyone was of intruders!