Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[Tortoise]

We can't know which bangs Mrs vdm heard. Mr Johnson may well have been woken by the first bangs. Otherwise he was woken by screams which failed the wake the near neighbours who apparently slept through all the very loud screaming.


If Op hadn't said the sequence of events in the bail affidavit, I'd agree they were using the evidence to construct some story. But he gave it before they had the evidence, certainly before they had berger and Johnson evidence, which in the end corroborated his version in terms of times of phone calls and screams for help.

bib - this doesn't prove anything. so their house is on a different sound path or they had their windows shut or they're heavier sleepers or their hearing isn't so good. You can't rule out witnesses who did hear what was happening because others weren't woken.

 

[mrjitty]

Actually Mrs Stipp was awake before the first bangs, so she didn't miss a first one. Mrs VDM was in and out of sleep so you don't know precisely when she was awake, because even she doesn't. The fact that she got up and saw people arriving and heard crying means it was the second bangs she heard - given that there was about 10-15 minutes between the two sets of bangs. Berger heard 4 shots and 4 shots were fired, so she wasn't wrong. You are doubting something that is a fact.

Yes.

And there is a clear reason for all this

The Stipps are the only witnesses that directly overlooked the bathroom with open space between them - so easy to hear - and Mrs Stipp was awake at 3am

The direct neighbours Mr and Mrs N were not awoken by these sounds.

So as per Lisa's original work pre judgement - I am convinced that the Stipps are the only witnesses to the first bangs and it was their simple mistake that let OP off the hook.

But otherwise no one was actually mistaking bats for shots or mistaking men for women

You do have to admire the whole bat/shot switcheroo for a quality piece of staging.

But of course none of this was worked out until the discovery phase.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes.

And there is a clear reason for all this

The Stipps are the only witnesses that directly overlooked the bathroom with open space between them - so easy to hear - and Mrs Stipp was awake at 3am

The direct neighbours Mr and Mrs N were not awoken by these sounds.

So as per Lisa's original work pre judgement - I am convinced that the Stipps are the only witnesses to the first bangs and it was their simple mistake that let OP off the hook.

But otherwise no one was actually mistaking bats for shots or mistaking men for women

You do have to admire the whole bat/shot switcheroo for a quality piece of staging.

But of course none of this was worked out until the discovery phase.

Yes, didn't Dixon admit he had amplified the bat sounds too?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

We can so easily devote pages of discussion to stuff that never happened.

Personally I don't find that a good allocation of my allotted moments on Plant Earth

Wake me up when JJ and Mr Fossil are on deck!

Wake up immediately!!! See #868

 

[LemonMousse]

Just thought of something regarding the screams "coming nearer", which GRTurner says is more inline with Pistorius's version....him screaming as he approached the toilet as he testified to.

Well, no.

The defence assertion is that no one heard the screams as he approached the toilet just before the shooting. The screams the Stipps heard were (apparently) as he ran back to the bedroom, back to the bathroom, back to the bedroom/balcony then back to the bathroom.

If we're going to rely on Mrs Stipp's evidence in that respect then please explain why she didn't keep hearing his screaming coming, going, coming and going?

She testified that the screaming came closer, shots (second bangs), then total silence. This means, in order for Pistorius's work of fiction to be true all Mrs Stipp heard was his final trip to the bathroom when he smashed down the door, screaming.

Also...how does Pistorius's claim that he yelled "help" three times from the balcony before smashing down the door fit? Dr Stipp clearly heard this after the second bangs when he was standing on the balcony waiting for security, looking straight at Pistorius's house. He even said that these seemed to come from left of where the screams had earlier come from...exactly right if Pistorius yelled this from his bedroom balcony.

Doesn't work, does it?

 

[Hazy]

Just thought of something regarding the screams "coming nearer", which GRTurner says is more inline with Pistorius's version....him screaming as he approached the toilet as he testified to.

Well, no.

The defence assertion is that no one heard the screams as he approached the toilet just before the shooting. The screams the Stipps heard were (apparently) as he ran back to the bedroom, back to the bathroom, back to the bedroom/balcony then back to the bathroom.

If we're going to rely on Mrs Stipp's evidence in that respect then please explain why she didn't keep hearing his screaming coming, going, coming and going?

She testified that the screaming came closer, shots (second bangs), then total silence. This means, in order for Pistorius's work of fiction to be true all Mrs Stipp heard was his final trip to the bathroom when he smashed down the door, screaming.

Also...how does Pistorius's claim that he yelled "help" three times from the balcony before smashing down the door fit? Dr Stipp clearly heard this after the second bangs when he was standing on the balcony waiting for security, looking straight at Pistorius's house. He even said that these seemed to come from left of where the screams had earlier come from...exactly right if Pistorius yelled this from his bedroom balcony.

Doesn't work, does it?

Exactly as I said earlier Lemon. No one heard any screams prior to the first bangs/shots on OP's version. No one!

 

[GR_Turner]

Sorry, but I don't understand your point.

We know for a FACT that there was screaming that woke Johnson (Pistorius claims it was him). So what relevance is it that some of the nearer neighbours did not hear it? Are you saying Johnson imagined them?

Pistorius knew the sequence of events before the bail hearing...he was there, he knew what the neighbours would probably have heard. Screaming, shouts of "help" and gunshots.

"When you all heard a woman screaming in terror, that was me" is the extent of his story.

My point about Johnson wad in reply to a poster saying only the,stipps heard 2 sets of shots and everyone else heard only the,second. I was pointing out that just because Johnson didn't hear the first bangs consciously doesn't mean he couldn't have been woken by them. If he was woken by the screams and not the first bangs then it's odd that they didn't wake the near neighbours too, on the state's version of bats then shots.

 

[JudgeJudi]

We can so easily devote pages of discussion to stuff that never happened.

Personally I don't find that a good allocation of my allotted moments on Plant Earth

Wake me up when JJ and Mr Fossil are on deck!

Hi mrjitty

As you know, Mr Fossil has recently moved. In addition to everything that that entails, he's had many things to attend to including personal commitments that have necessitated him being away from his PC ... and now Christmas is upon us. We haven't forgotten everyone.

 

[mrjitty]

Hi mrjitty

As you know, Mr Fossil has recently moved. In addition to everything that that entails, he's had many things to attend to including personal commitments that have necessitated him being away from his PC ... and now Christmas is upon us. We haven't forgotten everyone.

Oh mate - don't worry - my project timelines are measured in months!

I am soon on holiday as well so I think I will just check back next year

have a good one!

 

[JudgeJudi]

My point about Johnson wad in reply to a poster saying only the,stipps heard 2 sets of shots and everyone else heard only the,second. I was pointing out that just because Johnson didn't hear the first bangs consciously doesn't mean he couldn't have been woken by them. If he was woken by the screams and not the first bangs then it's odd that they didn't wake the near neighbours too, on the state's version of bats then shots.

It may appear to be odd, however the Nhlengetwas live right next door to OP and testified for the Defence.

BR: Did something wake you up during the early hours of the morning?
EN: Yes My Lady.

BR: What was it?
EN: A sound – bang – (ui) My Lady.

BR: Bang?
EN: Bang, yes.

BR: Was it loud?
EN: Yes. It was a very loud sound because it woke me up whilst I was sleeping.

BR: Do you know where it came from?
EN: I wasn’t sure as to where the noise was coming from My Lady.

BR: Did you do anything about it?
EN: I woke up from my sleep then I wakened by husband and asked him whether he could hear that which I was hearing. He then said to me like, “Do you hear anything?”

Her husband left the bedroom to investigate. While he was gone, Mrs N heard a male voice cry "Help. Help. Help" and crying.

So even though they lived next door, only Mrs N heard one loud bang followed by the helps and crying. If someone in such close proximity can sleep through all the shouting and screaming and 3 of the 4 shots, it's hardly surprising that some of the State witnesses, all of whom lived further away, only heard part as well.

 

[LemonMousse]

My point about Johnson wad in reply to a poster saying only the,stipps heard 2 sets of shots and everyone else heard only the,second. I was pointing out that just because Johnson didn't hear the first bangs consciously doesn't mean he couldn't have been woken by them. If he was woken by the screams and not the first bangs then it's odd that they didn't wake the near neighbours too, on the state's version of bats then shots.

It's not remotely odd!

Houses/bedrooms in different positions relative to Pistorius's house; windows open/windows shut; air con on, air con off; deep sleeper/light sleeper...and so on.

Neither Johnson or Berger said they heard the first bangs so the only conclusion you can make is that....they didn't hear the first bangs. Trying to suggest they did hear them but didn't know they did is a) speculative and b) a bit of a desperate reach!

The evidence only supports the following scenario: (IMO)

The Stipps are the only people to have heard the first set of bangs. If these are in fact the bat being banged about, this makes sense. A bat on a door is (around) 1000 times quieter than a gunshot so it is logical that the quietest sound would be heard by the least amount of people. Also, the Stipp's position was unique - a straight as an arrow line between the bathroom and their bedroom.

The screaming was heard by the Stipps and the Berger/Johnsons. No one else.

The gunshots were heard by everyone - including local dogs.

Pistorius wailing (like a man) was heard by everyone except the Johnsons who were in the wrong position to hear them and too far away.

I am not joking...if you look for a second from the perspective of Pistorius being guilty it all fits.

If you look from the perspective of him being innocent, nothing does! Nothing.

That's telling.

 

[Trotterly]

It's not remotely odd!

Houses/bedrooms in different positions relative to Pistorius's house; windows open/windows shut; air con on, air con off; deep sleeper/light sleeper...and so on.

Neither Johnson or Berger said they heard the first bangs so the only conclusion you can make is that....they didn't hear the first bangs. Trying to suggest they did hear them but didn't know they did is a) speculative and b) a bit of a desperate reach!

The evidence only supports the following scenario: (IMO)

The Stipps are the only people to have heard the first set of bangs. If these are in fact the bat being banged about, this makes sense. A bat on a door is (around) 1000 times quieter than a gunshot so it is logical that the quietest sound would be heard by the least amount of people. Also, the Stipp's position was unique - a straight as an arrow line between the bathroom and their bedroom.

The screaming was heard by the Stipps and the Berger/Johnsons. No one else.

The gunshots were heard by everyone - including local dogs.

Pistorius wailing (like a man) was heard by everyone except the Johnsons who were in the wrong position to hear them and too far away.

I am not joking...if you look for a second from the perspective of Pistorius being guilty it all fits.

If you look from the perspective of him being innocent, nothing does! Nothing.

That's telling.

You are confusing what we actually hear - perceived loudness (or "quietness"), with the power of the sound.

Power increases 10x with every extra 10dB but perceived loudness only doubles with every extra 10dB.

A gunshot is around 160dB and a bat around 90dB

That's a 70dB difference of 2^7 which is 128 times louder.

To give you some idea 1000x loudness would be the difference between a jet engine at 50ft and a just-audible sound.

 

[LemonMousse]

You are confusing what we actually hear - perceived loudness (or "quietness"), with the power of the sound.

Power increases 10x with every extra 10dB but perceived loudness only doubles with every extra 10dB.

A gunshot is around 160dB and a bat around 90dB

That's a 70dB difference of 2^7 which is 128 times louder.

To give you some idea 1000x loudness would be the difference between a jet engine at 50ft and a just-audible sound.

Yes.

So what?

 

[LemonMousse]

I've been sitting here, Trotterly, trying to figure out what point you think you're making to me and how it assists your argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your issue is the use of the words "loudness/quietness" when really we/I should be using "more powerful" with calculations like the one I used above.

Well, OK - but do you want, therefore, to calculate the "loudess"? I am assuming not because this is impossible for us....we don't have the necessary parameters, do we?

How many db do we knock off for ambient noise? For the energy drop off over distance? What's the amplitude? The bandwidth? Frequency? Exactly how much time were the hearers exposed to the noise? How does the placement of certain buildings, and the composition of the various walls, affect the levels of db reaching the hearers? What about the hearers ears.....all got top notch hearing? No wax bung up?

I don't know the answers, and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to make the necessary calculations. This is why discussions about relative loudness (as Lin said) is not entirely helpful.

A rule of thumb is that with every 20db gain - in laboratory conditions, with all things being equal - a noise will sound about 4 times louder to the average human ear.

But the fact remains that the noise intensity - the power initially expended in order to make the noise - is about 1000 times more in the case of a cricket bat vs gunshot.

This tells us - and it's all we actually need to know on here - that the gunshot was many, many, many times louder to everyone than any noise Pistorius - young and fit as he was - could possibly make with a cricket bat.

Another point - echo. Four noises of 160db each would bounce around noticeably. In other words, it would be heard as an echo. A cricket bat smacking a door would not echo at all.

(I have no idea how many db a cricket bat makes. I have heard various experts put it as low as 70 and as high as 100).

So.....please could you explain how it is logically likely that the neighbourhood was jolted awake by the quietest sound of the night but snoozed peacefully through a noise between 128 and 512 times louder?

 

[mhiforme]

Yes.

So what?

You're the one making bold claims of "A bat on a door is (around) 1000 times quieter than a gunshot" and when Totterfly calls you out on it, is this the only response you can come up with?

Where's the research that validates your claim?

 

[mhiforme]

It may appear to be odd, however the Nhlengetwas live right next door to OP and testified for the Defence.

BR: Did something wake you up during the early hours of the morning?
EN: Yes My Lady.

BR: What was it?
EN: A sound – bang – (ui) My Lady.

BR: Bang?
EN: Bang, yes.

BR: Was it loud?
EN: Yes. It was a very loud sound because it woke me up whilst I was sleeping.

BR: Do you know where it came from?
EN: I wasn’t sure as to where the noise was coming from My Lady.

BR: Did you do anything about it?
EN: I woke up from my sleep then I wakened by husband and asked him whether he could hear that which I was hearing. He then said to me like, “Do you hear anything?”

Her husband left the bedroom to investigate. While he was gone, Mrs N heard a male voice cry "Help. Help. Help" and crying.

So even though they lived next door, only Mrs N heard one loud bang followed by the helps and crying. If someone in such close proximity can sleep through all the shouting and screaming and 3 of the 4 shots, it's hardly surprising that some of the State witnesses, all of whom lived further away, only heard part as well.

BIB, it calls into question not just what they heard but also what they didn't hear.

 

[mhiforme]

bbm
Hahaha, lied as always!! He (and also Samantha) told, he suffers from insomnia and even so persistent, that he in earlier times went to the shooting ranch. "Better sleep than other athlets" or much worse than others? He lies when he opens his mouth, it seems. :gaah:

BIB, you do realize Oscar didn't make this statement in a court of law?

This statement was made for the media and often times, you'll say things to psych your opponent out. It's no different than an NFL coach saying there are no injuries on his team when in fact there are.

Are we going to now put the coaches feet to the fire for lying?

 

[mhiforme]

How do you know Reeva was in the toilet the whole time she was screaming?

Are you suggesting that OP can now sound like a baby as well as a man and a woman?

Mrs VDM is the only person (of about 8) who heard the male cries and thought they were female. She was also the only person who had been kept awake by a female voice half the night. I don't think the two things are unconnected, do you?

Please drop the suggestion that the rest of us "won't even consider that the screams were not what they seemed". We have all been on this thread since the beginning...we've considered everything.

BIB1 - So the fact that Mrs VDM heard a man scream like a woman means that you dismiss her?

BIB2 - This sounds rather condescending on your part.

 

[LemonMousse]

You're the one making bold claims of "A bat on a door is (around) 1000 times quieter than a gunshot" and when Totterfly calls you out on it, is this the only response you can come up with?

Where's the research that validates your claim?

What are you on about?

The sound generated by a gun shot is (actually more than) 1000 greater than that of a cricket bat on a door. This is to do with vibrations moving through a medium.

It's quite obvious to most of us that this will mean our personal perception of the noise is that it is much, much louder.

Trotterly called me on nothing. He tried to by furthering the issue in to exactly what our perceptions of the sound would be - how much louder, exactly, is one relative to the other.

He used the standard logarithmic scale to do so....and determined that, yes, one sound is much, much, much (x128, at least) louder.

So my answer, initially, was ..... so what?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you too, I'm afraid.

 

[LemonMousse]

BIB1 - So the fact that Mrs VDM heard a man scream like a woman means that you dismiss her?

BIB2 - This sounds rather condescending on your part.

Nope. I dismiss nothing. I compare it to the other evidence. You should try it.

Does it sound condescending? Oh well.