Oscar Pistorius - Sentencing - 6.13.2016

[Viper]

The sentencing guidelines were posted by JJ already

I suggest you check back in the thread, or watch this video from Ulrich Roux

The minimum sentencing regime only creates a presumption of 15.

The Judge may depart where compelling reasons are shown.

Onus is on the defence.

I watched the video, thanks. Ulrich is all over the map in that interview, really talking from a defense attorney's perspective. But he made clear that the public has an interest in a tough sentence and it is required to serve as an example to others to prevent future crimes from being committed. Based on his comments I do believe OP will get 15 years less 2.5 years served. He can apply for parole after 75% is served.

 

[Colin de France]

I'll be glad when it's over so i can forget he ever existed........as for the judge, this really is third class justice at it's worse..

 

[mrjitty]

BIB - I don't think any compelling reasons have been given at all so far. Most of the argument has been on OP's mental health, and how an extra spell in prison would finish him off. But he committed murder - and being 'broken' or 'depressed' are just not good (or compelling) reasons to avoid a lengthier custodial sentence.

Maybe Masipa could ask Roux, why, if OP is leaving his fate to God... is he doing everything in his power to avoid serving time for the life he took that he admits should only have been taken by God? For someone in such ill health, he sure is pulling everything out of the bag to avoid serving an extra minute of time.

He's still aggressive, he's still arrogant, he's still remorseless - and he's still a murderer. I can't think of a single compelling reason for him to get a reduced sentence. The 'rape' and 'suicide' was a lie (he should get extra time just for that). Plus he coped in prison, forming friendships with those like himself and even enjoying a game of football now and again.

He just can't stand the thought of not being in control and not being able to treat the prison staff as his own personal servants. He has a HUGE attitude problem and maybe he could deal with that once and for all during a long incarceration!!

I agree.

However the Judge seems to have a very broad discretion in this.

I don't have Lexis so I can't do a case search for previous case law which might tell us about how "compelling reasons" has been applied in the past

Personally I do not believe mistaken identity should be a compelling reason because you nevertheless intended to murder a different person. Should you get a discount for murdering the wrong person?

On the "intruder" we have no genuine fear so again that should not count IMO

 

[cottonweaver]

On the first sentencing day I posted that I hoped Nel would bring a psych to testify against Scholtz , for the Prosecution case.

I wonder why he hasn't .
The police psych Labauschagne( sp?) who was with Oscar since morning of 14th feb, has attended almost every day of the original trial and was advising Nel yesterday after Scholtz's report was thrown at him with 10 mins to read it.
(The familiar Pros woman psych was also sat next to him.) Even if it was just a forensic psych to explain professional standards etc.

I also thought a prisons professional might be there to briefly reiterate why OP can still access all the healthcare he needs, private docs and all, whilst incarcerated. ( I suppose he could re-use Commsnr Modise's comments from the first sentencing trial?)

I admit, I haven't watched the whole of the two days as the feed kept cutting out for me and so maybe his cross was very strong after he had had time to properly review the Scholtz report, after that delay.

Basically I'd like there to be no wiggle room for Masipa, things to be made crystal clear for her, almost complete rebuttal* of Scholtz. There is already too much flexibility in this minimum sentencing lark. ( * I appreciate that no Def psych can counter some of Scholtz's test results as they won't have had the access to OP to test him themselves. )

I see Scholtz was still sat in court today, does that mean there is a chance he will be recalled by Roux?
I'm also still under the impression that either team can call extra witnesses if they need so. ( Pls correct me if I'm wrong, anyone)

 

[mister happy]

I watched the video, thanks. Ulrich is all over the map in that interview, really talking from a defense attorney's perspective. But he made clear that the public has an interest in a tough sentence and it is required to serve as an example to others to prevent future crimes from being committed. Based on his comments I do believe OP will get 15 years less 2.5 years served. He can apply for parole after 75% is served.

BIB - I thought he served a little less than 2 years. I might be mistaken. Anyone know exactly?

 

[Paul Connelly]

REFLECTIONS ON A HARROWING DAY

Notwithstanding Barry Steenkamp’s harrowing testimony today, but having seen the charade of witnesses giving evidence for both the prosecution and the defence, and the duplicitous Roux trying to twist words to suit his client, it left me wondering if the courts need to catch up with modern neuro-science when it comes to cases such as this.

Lawyers are rightfully concerned with the application of the law to serve their respective position constrained as they are by rules of evidence and procedure. So we see Roux cynically trying to portray a broken, repentant Oscar who has been punished enough and would be better served becoming an amalgam of Princess Di, Mother Teresa, Florence Nightingale and Dr Barnado to both atone for his “mistake” and save the nation’s poor underprivileged children like some latter day Mandela.

Gerrie Nel is working with one arm tied behind his back to convince the inept judge to give a 15 year sentence to a man he knows damned well deserves a mandatory life sentence for Murder Dolus Directus. What struck me today was when the nurse was giving evidence about Oscar’s attitude in prison which resulted in her being removed from caring for him due to his unreasonable and violent behavior and an alarm went off in my head again.

Some time ago I was asked to write a training manual for Clergy who were going in to prison ministry as chaplains and specifically how to handle sociopaths/psycopaths who tend to manipulate them for a number of reasons. One of the dangers highlighted is spending too much time with a sociopath(s) as it can alter your thinking and decision making patterns. They will attempt to creep into your world and carry on a legitimate conversation to keep your interest. Hence Oscar being “Nice” sometimes. (Roux thought he had won a concession here but to me it was a massive alarm bell ringing!) So a Chaplain should always keep in mind they are only thinking of themselves thus making the Chaplain expendable and unimportant to them. A sociopath will do whatever they need to establish control and attempt to use that control to undermine your credibility, your reputation, your job or your life. The continuum is endless for a determined sociopath.

Oscar’s behavior in baiting this woman is classic sociopathic behavior. I won’t go into it here but the fact she was removed for dealing with him was a huge red flag to me.

But, of course Nel can’t argue that we are dealing with a sociopath can he because he can only deal with the established “facts.” We know though that those facts came about because of at least one Weskoppies psychologist and a judge that were both biased towards the then accused.

So we are where we are and that is that and we have to watch the two respective advocates apply the law and the established “facts” to secure justice. It’s a charade because there really is no mitigation for Pistorius if he were proven to be a sociopath because a sociopath knows right from wrong most of the time and chooses to do wrong regardless and will never conform their behavior to societal standards.

But what if I were to tell you there was a scientific way to prove beyond reasonable doubt whether Pistorius is indeed a sociopath. All it takes is an MRI scan of the brain.

Kent Kiehl is a prominent researcher who specializes in scanning the brains of sociopaths and psychopaths in prisons.

One sociopath he interviewed called Brian Dugan is serving two life sentences for rape and murder in Chicago. Dugan pleaded guilty to raping and murdering 10-year-old Jeanine Nicarico in 1983, and he was put on trial to determine whether he should be executed. Kiehl was hired by the defense to do a psychiatric evaluation.

In a videotaped interview with Kiehl, Dugan describes how he only meant to rob the Nicaricos' home. But then he saw the little girl inside.

"She came to the door and ... I clicked," Dugan says in a flat, emotionless voice. "I turned into Mr. Hyde from Dr. Jekyll." "And I have empathy, too — but it's like it just stops," he says. "I mean, I start to feel, but something just blocks it. I don't know what it is."

Kiehl says he's heard all this before: They all claim they feel terrible about their crimes for the benefit of the parole board. "But then you ask them, 'What do you mean, you feel really bad?' And Brian will look at you and go, 'What do you mean, what does it mean?' They look at you like, 'Can you give me some help? A hint? Can I call a friend?' They have no way of really getting at that at all,"

This is why I was so cynical and scathing of Oscar’s time on the stand. His emotions were clearly false and forced. Compare his so-called grief with Mr Steenkamp’s heartfelt evidence today.

The reason people like Dugan cannot access their emotions is that their physical brains are different. Sociopaths' brains behave differently from that of a non-sociopathic person. When a normal person sees a morally objectionable photo, his limbic system lights up involving the orbital cortex above the eyes and the amygdala deep in the brain. But when people like Dugan or Oscar see the picture, their emotional circuit does not engage in the same way. This neuro activity can be seen on MRI scans and is a more accurate scientific way of determining whether he has a severe personality disorder. This is a more accurate diagnostic tool than MMPI2 tests and other psychometic tests which are easily defeated with the right coaching. Also whilst objective in nature the interpretation of the results of these tests can be highly subjective as evidenced by Professor Scholtz evidence.

We have the neuroscience so isn’t it about time we utilized it and put an end to this antiquated charade? The etymology of the word science means “what is known” or “knowledge”. We need to know to dispense fair justice and we have now the means. We owe it to victims like Reeva and June and Barry. They deserve “knowledge”, they deserve the truth and justice. What they don’t deserve is Roux and this offensive, feculent charade that masquerades as truth and justice.

 

[cottonweaver]

Interesting Paul.Why aren't they already using MRI in forensic psych assessments?

Scholtzs original report only mentioned that he had a CT scan after the boating accident and even then they would haven't been looking at those scans for PDisorders but just post-accident brain damage. ( pg 19)

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB - I thought he served a little less than 2 years. I might be mistaken. Anyone know exactly?

He's done 8 months at Uncle A's and just under a year in prison.

 

[Viper]

He's done 8 months at Uncle A's and just under a year in prison.

Thanks! Masipa will let OP hang out at the mansion for a couple of months before sentencing, or slap him tomorrow? Haven't a clue...

Off topic but seems that OP has issues not with prison staff, just the female one! :laugh:

 

[cottonweaver]

I didn't realise that was Jenna Edkins sat with Aimee in court today.

Here are quite a lot of photos of her in this link. I haven't read the article. The headline implies they are dating again . I would have thought it was just a Defence ploy, like DV abusers get their ex-wives to say good things about them etc. etc.

"Shamed sprinter's former girlfriend hugs him in court to show support"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lfriend-hugs-court-support.html#ixzz4BZqbHsty
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[ImmyR]

I didn't realise that was Jenna Edkins sat with Aimee in court today.

Here are quite a lot of photos of her in this link. I haven't read the article. The headline implies they are dating again . I would have thought it was just a Defence ploy, like DV abusers get their ex-wives to say good things about them etc. etc.

"Shamed sprinter's former girlfriend hugs him in court to show support"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lfriend-hugs-court-support.html#ixzz4BZqbHsty
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I always thought Babyshoes was playing the long game. OP was talking to her on the phone as he arrived home on Feb 13 to see Reeva.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Interesting Paul.Why aren't they already using MRI in forensic psych assessments?

Scholtzs original report only mentioned that he had a CT scan after the boating accident and even then they would haven't been looking at those scans for PDisorders but just post-accident brain damage. ( pg 19)

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

Hi CW,

They actually do use neuroimaging (MRI or CT) along with Intelligence Quotient (IQ), results of electroencephalogram (EEG), and neurological examination in many jurisdictions in both civil and criminal cases. However, what's striking is given the huge interest in this case and OP's cynical attempt to excuse his poor evidence and manner before the court as the result of GAD hence his subsequent referral to Weskoppies, the forensic evaluation didn't include neuroimaging to better inform the court. They clearly didn't even bother to look for a personality disorder despite all the collateral evidence indicating he had anti-social behaviours that were extremely risky and life threatening to both himself and others. They had more historical and background info on OP than any previous patient and yet despite all this they did not properly assess him for a cluster B personality disorder. The MMPI2 test was no good because he had an aunt who could have coached him so they would not be able to rely on the results in case he defeated the subsets designed to detect "faking". Yet they did rely on it and I have no doubt he faked the test results to the desired levels.

Just for fun, have a look at the following Cluster B traits and see how many you can relate to Pistorius and then tell me why a set of professionals would not do neuroimaging investigations to support their forensic evaluation?

Cluster B: 'Dramatic, Emotional and Erratic'

Antisocial, or Dissocial
don't care much about the feelings of others
easily get frustrated
tend to be aggressive
commit crimes
find it difficult to make close relationships
impulsive - do things on the spur of the moment without thinking about them
don’t feel guilty about things you've done
don’t learn from unpleasant experiences

Borderline, or Emotionally Unstable
impulsive - do things on the spur of the moment
find it hard to control your emotions
feel bad about yourself
often self-harm, e.g. cutting yourself or making suicide attempts
feel 'empty’
make relationships quickly, but easily lose them
can feel paranoid or depressed
when stressed, may hear noises or voices

Histrionic
over-dramatise events
self-centered
have strong emotions which change quickly and don't last long
can be suggestible
worry a lot about your appearance
crave new things and excitement
can be seductive

Narcissistic
have a strong sense of your own self-importance
dream of unlimited success, power and intellectual brilliance
crave attention from other people, but show few warm feelings in return
take advantage of other people
ask for favours that you do not then return

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm very interested in these paul , as have been following another case where we have all been trying to work out which the perpetrators fit into. So I have found it fascinating to read about them.
Only the other week I was reading how the Cluster B's share so many commonalities.

In this basic link it underscores how complex diagnosis is and how the traits overlap several PDs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person...rder#Diagnosis

when you open the link, it's the fourth of the tables in there. The table is called:

"DSM-IV-TR Personality Disorders from the Perspective of the Five-Factor Model of General Personality Functioning"

Along the top line of all the columns are the PDs, if anyone else is interested.

Although the PDs, in UK still are MHealth disorders, they don't always seem to mitigate in sentencing nor conviction.
( Plus they say that are prisons are chokka with untreatable sociopaths )

I must say, MRI or no MRI, I was stunned by the mediocre standards of the first Weskoppies report but now having seen the author in action, I am less surprised.
I appreciate the reasons why the SA judiciary are below par, post new Constitution, I do not see why this should be the case with someone like Scholtz. Even the basic stuff of Oscar can't grieve. Take say obstructed bereavement, if he has that, then say so. At least then that can be rebutted as even guilt itself can be one of the factors in o.b. ......which leads to MH problems in the future.


As for the BS about OP needing a hospital - we looked this up months ago , IIRC there are hardly any secure hospitals out there, unless he wants to be many miles away from Pretoria.

PS. Your work with the clergy re occasional dubious characters who latch onto them did make me think of a few people I encountered, when I was younger and around my parents & g.parents who were very much involved in the Church. Occasionally I would see a few "vampiric" characters who latched on to various poor priests, but not for the usual reasons.
My mind is now segueing into J.Losey's The Servant - but take no notice!

ETA _ hold on, may be sthg wrong with my link, let me check it and I will come back and edit that!!!

 

[Tortoise]

I didn't realise that was Jenna Edkins sat with Aimee in court today.

Here are quite a lot of photos of her in this link. I haven't read the article. The headline implies they are dating again . I would have thought it was just a Defence ploy, like DV abusers get their ex-wives to say good things about them etc. etc.

"Shamed sprinter's former girlfriend hugs him in court to show support"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lfriend-hugs-court-support.html#ixzz4BZqbHsty
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I think she's been asked to be there on standby.

If Sam Taylor is called to give evidence about DV, defence will probably use Edkins to rebut her evidence. Roux did say he didn't know whether he was finished until all the State witnesses had been called.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Under South African sentencing rules, murder has a minimum sentence of 15 years. This can be reduced if compelling and extenuating circumstances are shown but Andrea Johnson of the NPA has gone on record as saying they will appeal anything less than 8 years.

Eligibility for parole comes after half the sentence is served less "credits" built up in prison. He's already served 12 months, plus, no doubt Roux will argue his time at Uncle Arnold's should be counted as time served.

In reality he could serve real jail time of anything from 2.5 to 7 years with parole and credits. Shockingly short for what he did and his lack of any genuine remorse.

not watched, but reading all the posts on here have any "compelling and extenuating circumstances" been raised? i didn't notice any.

so 15 years [minimum]... minus 1 year inside, minus 2 or 3 months that was served under the house arrest before the previous ch conviction was quashed [dec 2015].

since then he has been out on bail pending sentencing hasn't he?... does that get taken off a murder sentence? if it does, then it is in the convict's interest to drag out proceedings/appeals for as long as possible - which sounds wildy inappropriate to me.

reeva was murdered on 14 feb 2013... 40 months later this fella is still out shopping for groceries.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think she's been asked to be there on standby.

If Sam Taylor is called to give evidence about DV, defence will probably use Edkins to rebut her evidence. Roux did say he didn't know whether he was finished until all the State witnesses had been called.

nel would probably like a cross-ex chat with edkins on the stand.

 

[soozieqtips]

Thanks! Masipa will let OP hang out at the mansion for a couple of months before sentencing, or slap him tomorrow? Haven't a clue...

Off topic but seems that OP has issues not with prison staff, just the female one! :laugh:

He can't have any more time out. He's done. Goose is cooked. Hopefully she'll hand down the sentence by Friday and OP will go straight to jail where he can continue to whine about the unfairness of it all behind bars. What a total coward.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think she's been asked to be there on standby.

If Sam Taylor is called to give evidence about DV, defence will probably use Edkins to rebut her evidence. Roux did say he didn't know whether he was finished until all the State witnesses had been called.

Interesting indeed Tortoise. Now that thought flickered in my mind when I saw her turn up BUT I couldn't rem the rules for witnesses testifying . ( I also didn't know she was sat with the family as didn't recognise the mosuey haired woman with Aimee.)

If they're gonna testify can they sit in open court beforehand like JE did today ? I can't remember

BIB Thank you, you have answered my other question too.

 

[Paul Connelly]

I'm very interested in these paul , as have been following another case where we have all been trying to work out which the perpetrators fit into. So I have found it fascinating to read about them.
Only the other week I was reading how the Cluster B's share so many commonalities.

In this basic link it underscores how complex diagnosis is and how the traits overlap several PDs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person...rder#Diagnosis

when you open the link, it's the fourth of the tables in there. The table is called:

"DSM-IV-TR Personality Disorders from the Perspective of the Five-Factor Model of General Personality Functioning"

Along the top line of all the columns are the PDs, if anyone else is interested.

Although the PDs, in UK still are MHealth disorders, they don't always seem to mitigate in sentencing nor conviction.
( Plus they say that are prisons are chokka with untreatable sociopaths )

I must say, MRI or no MRI, I was stunned by the mediocre standards of the first Weskoppies report but now having seen the author in action, I am less surprised.
I appreciate the reasons why the SA judiciary are below par, post new Constitution, I do not see why this should be the case with someone like Scholtz. Even the basic stuff of Oscar can't grieve. Take say obstructed bereavement, if he has that, then say so. At least then that can be rebutted as even guilt itself can be one of the factors in o.b. ......which leads to MH problems in the future.


As for the BS about OP needing a hospital - we looked this up months ago , IIRC there are hardly any secure hospitals out there, unless he wants to be many miles away from Pretoria.

PS. Your work with the clergy re occasional dubious characters who latch onto them did make me think of a few people I encountered, when I was younger and around my parents & g.parents who were very much involved in the Church. Occasionally I would see a few "vampiric" characters who latched on to various poor priests, but not for the usual reasons.
My mind is now segueing into J.Losey's The Servant - but take no notice!

ETA _ hold on, may be sthg wrong with my link, let me check it and I will come back and edit that!!!

I agree about the Weskoppies reports. Very poor and subjective I thought.

I guess that because psychopaths, sociopaths and other with antisocial personality disorders can distinguish between right and wrong courts don't take such conditions in account during sentencing. One school of thought is they should be cut some slack as they can't help it as it's the way they are wired and just as you would be more lenient to an adult with cognitive deficits so you should with sociopaths. The other school says well alcoholics are pathologically hard wired too and you wouldn't excuse a drunk who ran over a pedestrian. So unless one is clinically insane you cannot be excused.

OP is not going to hospital he's going to prison all the froth and nonsense is merely an attempt to tug on Masipa's heartstrings to reduce his incarceration. Besides he won't change. It's all about nature and nurture and he's too old to change. Some psychopaths and sociopaths function without resorting to the behaviours Oscar displayed and can adapt. Oscar's is exacerbated by his explosive temper and anger issues. Prison is certainly the best place for him and society at large.

 

[soozieqtips]

not watched, but reading all the posts on here have any "compelling and extenuating circumstances" been raised? i didn't notice any.

so 15 years [minimum]... minus 1 year inside, minus 2 or 3 months that was served under the house arrest before the previous ch conviction was quashed [dec 2015].

since then he has been out on bail pending sentencing hasn't he?... does that get taken off a murder sentence? if it does, then it is in the convict's interest to drag out proceedings/appeals for as long as possible - which sounds wildy inappropriate to me.

reeva was murdered on 14 feb 2013... 40 months later this fella is still out shopping for groceries.

BIB - yes, I wondered that too. He was still under house arrest while on bail, so I'm not sure. But if the original sentence was null and void, the new sentence can surely only start once he's back in jail? Can anyone clarify?