PA PA - Bedford, 'Mr. Bones' WhtMale 30-35, 585UMPA, 30-06 rifle, gold dental wk, camping equip, Oct'58

[TrustedTracker5097]

FORSYTHE v. STATE | 12 Ohio Misc. 99 (1967) | iomisc99196 | Leagle.com

Very long article. Appeal gives more random info/clues about this case.

"August 13, 1957—The following front page article was carried in the Lima News in part: "Both Inspector Grady and Chief Miller seemed optimistic about their chances of proving Forsythe did shoot Connors * * *. `As we figure it, he had 25 hours to hide the body * * * he is familiar with Indiana' * * *."
#
Two Of My Favorite Mouthpieces

Flamboyant defense lawyer Ernie Navarre... Navarre took on the case of Ralph Forsythe, himself a colorful criminal who had just returned to Lima after serving a prison term. It was a town where you could go into the pool halls downtown and bet on baseball, football or horse racing...Forsythe was a big figure in local gambling. The Lima police treated him as though he were the modern reincarnation of Al Capone and so did the local newspaper....During an all-night poker game, Forsythe got into an argument with one of the other players. Forsythe pulled a gun from under the table. He shot the other man dead.
All the other players in the game fled, leaving Forsythe with his victim.
Forsythe reacted with great coolness. He picked up the dead man and dragged him to his car. Forsythe drove the body to the tip of southern Ohio where he buried it.
The body was never found. Forsythe was charged

Navarre arranged for me to interview Forsythe in his cell.
( NOTE to myself or anyone else interested. Can we find this interview?)
The interview made a great Sunday piece...
I never doubted his guilt for an instant.
"Don't miss today's testimony," Navarre told me about two weeks after the trial got under way. "Something interesting's going to happen."
"You saw Ralph Forsythe with a gun in his hand."
"Yes."
"You say you saw him fire the gun."
"Yes sir, I did."
Navarre walked to the evidence table and picked up the gun. He brought it back to the witness stand.
"Is this the gun?"
"Yes, it most certainly is. I'd never forget it."
Navarre smiled.
"Am I now about the same distance from you as Ralph Forsythe was that night?"
"Yes sir."
"And did he point the gun just like this?"
"Yes, he did." Now the witness looked uneasy.
Navarre raised the pistol and pointed it directly toward the witness's face.
"Yes. That's about right."
Navarre pulled the trigger. He fired the pistol directly at the witness's face. The witness gasped in terror.
#

(I didn't realize LE had the gun) ???


Item from another article, I've not provided a link (and snipped only a small part) as names of private citizens are noted so it may be against TOS to post.

"Toward 10 p.m. that humid August evening, while Conner, Forsythe and three other men were sitting around the kitchen table drinking, Forsythe accused Conner of stealing a gun...he shot Conner in the head, according to the three other men, who, understandably, fled...
...no one immediately notified police and the witness who did finally come forward, Larue “Tex” Arrington, did so only after stopping at the nearby Pioneer Bar for a double shot...
Police were skeptical of the drunken Arrington’s story
— the other two men didn’t talk until the following day —
and didn’t get around to checking it out until the morning of Aug. 11, 1957, the day after the incident.
Neither Forsythe nor his wife was to be found, and there was no sign of Conner.

There was blood and a bullet hole in the kitchen wall."
#

So blood evidence, a gun, alternate body locations (probably just theories) and strong evidence of organized crime... either theory, that of MR. Bones being Conner, or Mr Bones not being Conner can be pursued...

Lima Police. Can they assist with providing Conner's DNA?

Can we all take a moment to appreciate the fact that a defense attorney pointed a gun at a witness in the middle of a courtroom and FIRED it? I know it was only loaded with blanks, but still. Talk about courtroom drama...

 

[Ann99]

For the record, since it appears that these images aren’t widely available online, and I don’t think they’ve been posted on this thread before, I felt I ought to post them here along with a link to the article they came from. It appears most references to Charles Conner use this photo, but they crop out his body and only show his face. I could be mistaken, but the inclusion of that little placard on his chest makes me think mugshot photos. Then again, it could be for something else. Note the date on the placard; I can’t make out the last digit, but it appears to say “1949” or “1943”. If these are correct dates, that would mean this photo was taken about 8 or 14 years prior to Conner’s murder. This could mean something, or it could mean nothing. Some people change appearances greatly in that timeframe. Others barely change at all. Interestingly, this article also includes a picture of his killer, Ralph Forsythe. I don’t know about you all, but the suit and shades scream old school mob boss to me. Not sure if you came across these during your research Magnum, but I think these are both interesting pieces.

From the headlines: Looking back at news stories - The Lima News

From above article.

"
Forsythe case

Eyewitnesses testified that they were present when Ralph Forsythe shot Chuck Conner right between the eyes at his birthday celebration in August 1957. Yet no one could find the body or the murder weapon. And when a jury of Lima residents convicted Ralph Forsythe ...
#
So, no murder weapon, this contradicts other article.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

From above article.

"
Forsythe case

Eyewitnesses testified that they were present when Ralph Forsythe shot Chuck Conner right between the eyes at his birthday celebration in August 1957. Yet no one could find the body or the murder weapon. And when a jury of Lima residents convicted Ralph Forsythe ...
#
So, no murder weapon, this contradicts other article.

That’s the problem with news articles. Sources don’t always agree with one another on particular details.

 

[Ann99]

Duplicate. DBM.

 

[Ann99]

I decided to contact Ohio authorities about Charles Conner given Magnum’s posts that suggested more advanced tests might lead to a positive match. This is the response I received regarding that point. It’s from an email from one of the case officers.

“So, to explain it as simply as possible, there are different types of DNA that we can get from human remains and can compare to the missing person. For Charles Conner we have 2/3 more advanced DNA samples that were tested and compared and it was determined that it was not a match. No further DNA testing or comparison would change that. I appreciate your request though!”

Any thoughts?

Cn you please set me straight on this DNA?
Sorry to be so confused
Is this DNA directly from Mr. Conner or is it from his relatives?
TIA

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Cn you please set me straight on this DNA?
Sorry to be so confused
Is this DNA directly from Mr. Conner or is it from his relatives?
TIA

It’s my understanding that the DNA used to compare Mr. Bones’s DNA to Conner’s came from one of Conner’s relatives. Magnum has more info than me.

 

[Ann99]

It’s my understanding that the DNA used to compare Mr. Bones’s DNA to Conner’s came from one of Conner’s relatives. Magnum has more info than me.

Thank you.
So, do you think Lima Police would still have evidence with Mr. Conner's blood? Blood in the kitchen, blood on the glove?

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Thank you.
So, do you think Lima Police would still have evidence with Mr. Conner's blood? Blood in the kitchen, blood on the glove?

I have absolutely no idea. I’d have to check and see.

 

[Ann99]

Can we all take a moment to appreciate the fact that a defense attorney pointed a gun at a witness in the middle of a courtroom and FIRED it? I know it was only loaded with blanks, but still. Talk about courtroom drama...

Lawyers...
I read another article that described a Perry Mason moment orchestrated by Defense Attorney Navarro.
Supposedly he had Mr. Conner's brother, who looked very much like Mr. Conner, dramaticlly walk into the courtoom, giving a momentry though that Mr. Conner was still alive...

I will end my posts for today saying in my opinion, Lima Police, Lima Coroner's office, should be able to assist on this quest. They had so much publicity on the murder and trial, I would think Lima Ohio, Lima LE, would be interested in a revival.

 

[Ann99]

I have absolutely no idea. I’d have to check and see.

Thanks Trusted Tracker!

 

[Magnum P.E.]

It’s my understanding that the DNA used to compare Mr. Bones’s DNA to Conner’s came from one of Conner’s relatives. Magnum has more info than me.

A relative, but not a first degree relative (none were to be had) gave a sample. However, with the crude CODIS testing of that time, you might get a “maybe” but that’s all. I urge each person interested to read up on why CODIS is great for crime investigation, but terrible for UID cases (unless you get very lucky). I think that sometimes they get no match and rule someone out with CODIS, when no match would have been expected anyway. LE persists in using CODIS for those purposes but that is slowly changing. The tests used by Ancestry, 23 and Me, etc., are much much better for that, and can be used to construct a family tree for a UID.
As to whether DNA evidence from Forsythe Manor still exists, I have no idea. It would be handy, as would dental records for Charles Conner...

 

[Ann99]

A relative, but not a first degree relative (none were to be had) gave a sample. However, with the crude CODIS testing of that time, you might get a “maybe” but that’s all. I urge each person interested to read up on why CODIS is great for crime investigation, but terrible for UID cases (unless you get very lucky). I think that sometimes they get no match and rule someone out with CODIS, when no match would have been expected anyway. LE persists in using CODIS for those purposes but that is slowly changing. The tests used by Ancestry, 23 and Me, etc., are much much better for that, and can be used to construct a family tree for a UID.
As to whether DNA evidence from Forsythe Manor still exists, I have no idea. It would be handy, as would dental records for Charles Conner...

Thank you Magnum.
Yes, it would be handy. I would expect Lima police department to preserve evidence, just as Bedford police have done.
But, I wouldn't think a dentist would retain dental records for decades.

Regarding the distance to and from Bedford Pa. with Lima Ohio as a starting point. It is possible that Forsythe transported the body to Cadiz where it was transferred to another "clean up man", a "fixer" who took it from that point to Pa.
My only problem with that theory is the Ohio River in between.
Notorious as a perfect place for dumping bodies.
Near Pittsburgh, or as has been rumored, in Southern Ohio.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

Thank you Magnum.
Yes, it would be handy. I would expect Lima police department to preserve evidence, just as Bedford police have done.
But, I wouldn't think a dentist would retain dental records for decades.

Regarding the distance to and from Bedford Pa. with Lima Ohio as a starting point. It is possible that Forsythe transported the body to Cadiz where it was transferred to another "clean up man", a "fixer" who took it from that point to Pa.
My only problem with that theory is the Ohio River in between.
Notorious as a perfect place for dumping bodies.
Near Pittsburgh, or as has been rumored, in Southern Ohio.

I never asked if the Lima PD kept evidence. The dental records, now that is not that impossible. When dentists retire, their patient records go on to the successor to the practice. In Pennsylvania, at least, doctors send medical records in to the state in certain circumstances. When my old family doctor died, his secretary asked if we wanted to copy our medical records before they were sent in. I don’t know if dentists in Ohio did that back then. Conner did not serve in the military, or his dentals would exist. They NEVER get rid of those.

 

[Richard]

... Conner did not serve in the military, or his dentals would exist. They NEVER get rid of those.

Well, actually the military has been known to lose Dental Records. They lost 13 years worth of mine and had to start a new one from scratch.

But, it is true that the Military sends all Service, Medical, and Dental records to the National Military Personnel Records Center in Saint Louis, MO upon a service member leaving active service.

That said, a huge fire in July of 1973 destroyed a lot of Army and Air Force Records.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

Here is a quote from Prof. Derek Abbott, who has spent years investigating Somerton Man. For those of you not familiar with the case, he was recently exhumed, after a long court procedure, and DNA analysis is underway. What he says applies to Mr. Bones as well. Not all DNA tests are created equal. The DNA tests done on Mr.B. sampled maybe seven loci, now it is hundreds of thousands.

Dr. Abbott:
"We have extracted DNA from them. We've got all the DNA from his mother's side, for example, but it's not enough. It's not the type of DNA we need for an investigation. But it shows that there is DNA to be had there."
Proff Abbott said extracting DNA from the man's bones is a "different ball game from normal DNA extraction".
"Normally, in a crime scene, when you want to watch DNA between a suspected criminal and some DNA at the crime scene, you use something like 23 markers," he said.
"In this case, we use something like 800,000 markers it's completely different. It's not a crime-scene type deal.
"What one does, is one compares it with DNA on what's called genealogical websites not crime databases."

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Here is a quote from Prof. Derek Abbott, who has spent years investigating Somerton Man. For those of you not familiar with the case, he was recently exhumed, after a long court procedure, and DNA analysis is underway. What he says applies to Mr. Bones as well. Not all DNA tests are created equal. The DNA tests done on Mr.B. sampled maybe seven loci, now it is hundreds of thousands.

Dr. Abbott:
"We have extracted DNA from them. We've got all the DNA from his mother's side, for example, but it's not enough. It's not the type of DNA we need for an investigation. But it shows that there is DNA to be had there."
Proff Abbott said extracting DNA from the man's bones is a "different ball game from normal DNA extraction".
"Normally, in a crime scene, when you want to watch DNA between a suspected criminal and some DNA at the crime scene, you use something like 23 markers," he said.
"In this case, we use something like 800,000 markers it's completely different. It's not a crime-scene type deal.
"What one does, is one compares it with DNA on what's called genealogical websites not crime databases."

If I were to describe this in a very oversimplified manner, it sounds like the testing we want done is far more in depth than CODIS.

 

[Ann99]

I have absolutely no idea. I’d have to check and see.

If you think evidence from Lima Police would include C. Conner blood that could be useful for appropriate DNA testing to compare with what little exists from MR.Bones, I will contact them and ask if blood evidence exists - unless you have already done so, or plan to. I don't have experience in these requests, and it seems like you do and have success.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

If you think evidence from Lima Police would include C. Conner blood that could be useful for appropriate DNA testing to compare with what little exists from MR.Bones, I will contact them and ask if blood evidence exists - unless you have already done so, or plan to. I don't have experience in these requests, and it seems like you do and have success.

I plan on contacting them later today. I’ll keep you all posted.

 

[Ann99]

I plan on contacting them later today. I’ll keep you all posted.

TY!
I guess this is like working backwards, but it may yield blood that can be tested.
Fingers crossed!

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Left a voicemail for one of Lima PD’s detectives asking them to call me back about the Conner case. Still no word from the PSP about Mr. Bones. I might try calling them again in a few days.