PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[aussiegran]

The shooting occurred following an argument in the Bordens' home at 15 Royal Drive, Warwick Township.

Ludwig and Kara had a secret sexual relationship, one of Ludwig's friends told police, and the Bordens did not approve of them dating.

Investigators contend Ludwig kidnapped Kara, whom they said was not involved in the plot to kill her parents, and held her against her will.

"Kara is being treated as a victim as far as I'm concerned," Garipoli said. "She is being taken care of well."

Kara was reunited with her sister and three brothers at an undisclosed location. The family home, a crime scene crawling with reporters and law enforcement officers for two days, was dark Tuesday night.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald R. Totaro is sympathetic to the orphaned Borden children. In addition to Kara, they include Katelyn, 13; David, 11; and Justin and James, who are in their early 20s.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18635

I am so glad the LE believe she wasnt involved .I think at 14 she was just rebelling over the new boyfriend and couldnt possibly know he was capable of this .My thoughts are with her family I hope these poor kids have loving relatives to support them .

 

[luthersmama]

One of the reports I read said that they were headed to Minnesota, where Ludwig had relatives. His dad had given police the info about the relatives so they were keeping an eye out along the likely travel routes to MN.

Given their faith, I think it is unlikely they were headed to get an abortion. If she is pregnant, they were probably running to someplace where they would be allowed to keep the baby and live without interference from her family.

 

[misterallgood]

One of the reports I read said that they were headed to Minnesota, where Ludwig had relatives. His dad had given police the info about the relatives so they were keeping an eye out along the likely travel routes to MN.

Given their faith, I think it is unlikely they were headed to get an abortion. If she is pregnant, they were probably running to someplace where they would be allowed to keep the baby and live without interference from her family.

Hi, all --

I don't have time to post much here, but wanted to chime in on this discussion -- though I've wondered about Kara Beth, as evidenced by the articles I've written for crimelibrary.com, I do not believe these kids even for a moment entertained the idea of abortion, and though I do feel Kara Beth had a distinctly different side to her personality she tried to conceal from her 'rents -- and what teen doesn't, to some degree? -- I felt I should say somewhere that I still have a lot of trouble believing she knew this would happen, and I am still erring toward thinking that her distress when she was finally recovered in Indiana was real.

David? I don't think he had a past pattern of distinctly anti-social behavior. I think this was more or less a crime of passion -- at the moment, anyway. He felt he was desperately in love with the girl, and I think he may have felt their love was sanctified, in some way. That they were already wedded inside their hearts. I am not romanticizing things, however -- I suspect David could have been working on a low-level delusional state, not obvious to many around him. I believe the weapons were brought to the home out of a misguided fear of the Borden parents, for whatever reason, and the murder of Michael could have been an eruption. But the murder of Cathryn, I think, was different. The boy had time to see what he'd just done. He then felt, 'in for a penny, in for a pound.'

I'll be on Rita Cosby's show on MSNBC tonight, Wednesday night, at 9 pm ET, to discuss this case. All this TV stuff is surreal, y'all.

Steve

 

[concernedperson]

Hi, all --

I don't have time to post much here, but wanted to chime in on this discussion -- though I've wondered about Kara Beth, as evidenced by the articles I've written for crimelibrary.com, I do not believe these kids even for a moment entertained the idea of abortion, and though I do feel Kara Beth had a distinctly different side to her personality she tried to conceal from her 'rents -- and what teen doesn't, to some degree? -- I felt I should say somewhere that I still have a lot of trouble believing she knew this would happen, and I am still erring toward thinking that her distress when she was finally recovered in Indiana was real.

David? I don't think he had a past pattern of distinctly anti-social behavior. I think this was more or less a crime of passion -- at the moment, anyway. He felt he was desperately in love with the girl, and I think he may have felt their love was sanctified, in some way. That they were already wedded inside their hearts. I am not romanticizing things, however -- I suspect David could have been working on a low-level delusional state, not obvious to many around him. I believe the weapons were brought to the home out of a misguided fear of the Borden parents, for whatever reason, and the murder of Michael could have been an eruption. But the murder of Cathryn, I think, was different. The boy had time to see what he'd just done. He then felt, 'in for a penny, in for a pound.'

I'll be on Rita Cosby's show on MSNBC tonight, Wednesday night, at 9 pm ET, to discuss this case. All this TV stuff is surreal, y'all.

Steve

I agree, Steve, and I think the references to jail time is because of the age difference.They knew enough about statutory rape. After the fathers murder he was empowered, so to speak. I just don't believe Kara was fully apprised of the situation.

 

[dancingdaisy]

I dont know if Kara Beth had any knowledge that David was going to kill her parents, I would like to think that she had no idea. But if I was in a car going almost 100 mph and the driver lost control and hit a tree, i would be frantic, shaking and crying as well. Thats a very scary ordeal. They could have very well been killed themselves. So its hard for me to consider her emotional state as a factor of whether she was a victim or an accomplise just by how she acted when the chase ended.

 

[dnrslucky1]

IMO! It couldn't have been planned or he would not have brought her home and then left to be summoned back by the father. Also if it were planned she had no reason to cover her steps by saying she spent the night at a girlfriends.

Why did he bring a gun back? Could he have been afraid of the confrontation, and thought he could use it as defense, for the two of them to escape if things got out of hand?

Was the father a very controling person? Is that why the mother was sitting in chair still covered with a lap blanket? Possibly the mother and Kara were told to stay out of it. Kara could have been sent to her room.

Why was the father shot in the back of the head, if he was escorting him out? Why did the mother not move from her chair after hearing a gun shot?

If he was a very good aim, "and it seems so"! Did the father escort him out the door and not lock it, then all seemed fine, so mom sat in chair,covered up and as dad was walking away from door, he came in with a gun and took two fast shots! Otherwise I don't understand, dad shot in back of head ,mom shot in forehead still in chair covered up

 

[concernedperson]

I dont know if Kara Beth had any knowledge that David was going to kill her parents, I would like to think that she had no idea. But if I was in a car going almost 100 mph and the driver lost control and hit a tree, i would be frantic, shaking and crying as well. Thats a very scary ordeal. They could have very well been killed themselves. So its hard for me to consider her emotional state as a factor of whether she was a victim or an accomplise just by how she acted when the chase ended.

But it was reported that they were seen at a Subway earlier in the day and she had red eyes and her face was bloated as if she had been crying a lot. Of course what you said is a possibility too. But, the crying was reported earlier in the day.

 

[dancingdaisy]

But it was reported that they were seen at a Subway earlier in the day and she had red eyes and her face was bloated as if she had been crying a lot. Of course what you said is a possibility too. But, the crying was reported earlier in the day.

Did they establish that it was them at the subway? The said a girl that looked like Kara and had her hair in a ponytail, which was correct, but they described the guy as having short hair, less than an inch long and made some assume he cut it, but his hair is still long?

 

[dancingdaisy]

I dont understand that part either, i read somewhere that the mom was in the bedroom in the chair, i also wondered why she didnt get up when she heard the gun shot

 

[concernedperson]

I dont understand that part either, i read somewhere that the mom was in the bedroom in the chair, i also wondered why she didnt get up when she heard the gun shot

That part is bothering me also. Wouldn't you be moving fast like the sister did? The little brother was out the door and on to the neighbors.

 

[reb]

i believe i read somewhere that the father escorted him out and then turned to go back into the house. as for the mother, she probably was in shock and terrified hearing a gunshot, and before she got a chance to get up, the psycho ran in and shot her too. it's not unlikely to "freeze" in a situation like this.

one thing i am really amazed by is the double-life these supposedly "upstanding" young kids lead. all the talk about jesus, youth groups, church, and god, and this and that... and then look on myspace (and a little closer into their lives)-- and you find a different story altogether. the sheer hypocrisy of it astounds me... all of a sudden they're pimps and ho's and whatnot....!

 

[Paradise]

i believe i read somewhere that the father escorted him out and then turned to go back into the house. as for the mother, she probably was in shock and terrified hearing a gunshot, and before she got a chance to get up, the psycho ran in and shot her too. it's not unlikely to "freeze" in a situation like this.

one thing i am really amazed by is the double-life these supposedly "upstanding" young kids lead. all the talk about jesus, youth groups, church, and god, and this and that... and then look on myspace (and a little closer into their lives)-- and you find a different story altogether. the sheer hypocrisy of it astounds me... all of a sudden they're pimps and ho's and whatnot....!

I think it's a front they put up for their friends. Deep down they're really :chicken: .

 

[dnrslucky1]

Maybe I am different, but if it were my daughter staying out all night with someone I did not approve of and as concerned parents we decided to have a discussion with the two, then summoned the boyfriend back, I would not have been sitting in a chair! So something is not right! How many of you would have been sitting in a chair while your hubby was argueing, then escorting the boyfriend out of the house? Not me!

 

[reb]

if they had been fighting for an hour, maybe the poor woman was sleep-deprived and exhausted, and just sat down for a minute... or maybe the husband was trying to protect her by saying "just go sit down and i'll be done with him in a second"...

although if the father actually had any inkling the kid had "weapons", ... they should have called police LONG before things escalated to the point it did. what on earth were they fighting about for an entire HOUR???

 

[concernedperson]

if they had been fighting for an hour, maybe the poor woman was sleep-deprived and exhausted, and just sat down for a minute... or maybe the husband was trying to protect her by saying "just go sit down and i'll be done with him in a second"...

although if the father actually had any inkling the kid had "weapons", ... they should have called police LONG before things escalated to the point it did. what on earth were they fighting about for an entire HOUR???

Lots of questions...just lots! Hopefully, in the next few days we will have some answers.

 

[Lili]

From the local news I thought the parents were shot with a handgun. That Ludwig was instructed to leave a rifle on the porch (or outside) which he did, but that he also had a handgun. And an officer being interviewed would not confirm nor deny that the father was shot in the back of the head. And did say the mother was sitting in a chair with a throw over her legs.

BTW, the photos of "beer drinking" were probably taken at deer camp. It is common for groups (families, friends) to get together the weekend before or during deer season and go to camp for hunting season. Drinking, card playing, etc. Not everyone allows the youngsters to drink. Maybe they were, maybe not. The remarks I heard on tv about the grin while he was dressing the deer were rude (NG). He got his deer, he was happy.

I could show you a few ear to ear grins while "gutting" and skinning is going on. It's not just a redneck thing.

It's sad, these kids just didn't realize the consequences of their actions.

 

[kahskye]

I haven't read this entire thread and have probably missed alot. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but at 14 my dd surely would not be dating. This is so sad that a 14 yr old's parents are dead. My thoughts and prayers go out for the remaining family.

 

[englishleigh]

Maybe I am different, but if it were my daughter staying out all night with someone I did not approve of and as concerned parents we decided to have a discussion with the two, then summoned the boyfriend back, I would not have been sitting in a chair! So something is not right! How many of you would have been sitting in a chair while your hubby was argueing, then escorting the boyfriend out of the house? Not me!

I hate to say this b/c I really want to think/know/believe that Kara had nothing at all to do with her parents' deaths...but what if Kara shot Mom after David shot Dad?

 

[newtv]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1321144

ludwig scared story says

Kara Borden was flown back to Pennsylvania from Indiana on Tuesday in a separate plane. Police say they're treating her as a crime victim, but that the investigation is continuing. She has been reunited with her family.

 

[Misty-Waves]

How is it that we have the info.about David bringing a rifle to the home, & being asked to leave it on the front porch? (Kara's Sister I suppose--poor girl!) That's just insane to me! Would you ever let someone in your home who appeared at your front door with a rifle in his hands?
Can't undo this tragedy--but it's my habit to try to reverse the tape of a horrible event, and slam the door & call the cops.
Misty