PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[Olivia77]

But was she manipulated? Read my other posts about what he has done before. 14 is young and not steady as far as independent decisions. Being scared and alone would make you accept a lot. Think of how Shasta Groene cooperated with Duncan. Does that make her evil or a victim? Did she love her brother, Dylan? Yes, she did. But it was out of her control.So, do you condemn to try and live or because you aren't a hero to die because of public opinion? Compassion is always importent.

I was cutting and pasting a news article that someone else wrote... not expressing any opinion in case your post was directed to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree. His murdering was his own fantasy.

One that SHE found oh so romantic!:sick:

 

[docwho3]

But was she manipulated? Read my other posts about what he has done before. 14 is young and not steady as far as independent decisions. Being scared and alone would make you accept a lot. Think of how Shasta Groene cooperated with Duncan. Does that make her evil or a victim? Did she love her brother, Dylan? Yes, she did. But it was out of her control.So, do you condemn to try and live or because you aren't a hero to die because of public opinion? Compassion is always importent.

I think I see your point (but feel free to correct me if I am wrong as it may also help others.) Leaving with him willingly does not equate,in my mind, to her having been a premeditated partner in the murder. I take it you think she is too young to be responsible for her actions especially in light of his influence?

I think his atty. wants to use that fact that she went willingly as a way to show that since kidnapping did not happen that there were not extra bad circumstances in this case to warrant a death penalty.

I do feel compassion but at the same time I think there may well be some legal consequences to this young lady's actions. It will be interesting to learn more of their relationship to see if this was an equal partnership or was one dominant and one submissive and if so who was which.

I will be following this case closely because I want to know if she did in fact become a partner in a coldblooded murder plot and if so I want to try to understand the factors that went into their thinking as it may help in future cases and hopefully someday society can find ways to read warning signs to head off such events.

 

[concernedperson]

Thanks to both of you. No, I was not directing anything other than to think about this case in light of other news articles. The defense attorney's will do everything they can to diminish culpability as that is their job. I am usually the first to jump on a perp but I don't see Kara as that. Stupid and young, yes! But manipulative and cunning and able to carry out an offense, no. Not yet, I could be convinced with enough info but I am not there yet.

 

[KatherineQ]

But was she manipulated? Read my other posts about what he has done before. 14 is young and not steady as far as independent decisions. Being scared and alone would make you accept a lot. Think of how Shasta Groene cooperated with Duncan. Does that make her evil or a victim? Did she love her brother, Dylan? Yes, she did. But it was out of her control.So, do you condemn to try and live or because you aren't a hero to die because of public opinion? Compassion is always importent.

CP - I kind of see what you're saying, but the two aren't comparable at ALL. Shasta was snatched in the night by a stranger, a monster who broke into her home and killed her family and snatched her and her brother away. She's a child, an innocent, and whatever she did to remain alive, even if she aligned herself with him and appeared to be there at DQ willingly, she is 100% victim.

KaraBeth isn't that at all. Against her parents wishes for MONTHS, she had a sexual relationship with this boy, and then when he killed her parents she ran off to get married to him. Sheesh. At some point in her life, probably 20 years down the road, the magnitude of what she's done will hit her. I don't think at this point she is capable of feeling it.

 

[mysteriew]

Things are starting to look bad on Kara. But I still question her culpability. Was she in an inappropriate relationship? yes. Was she possibly lying and sneaking around her parents wishes? Yes, most likely. Those types of things happen commonly with kids this age. Was she involved in the planning of her pearents death? Currently being investigated, and I am withholding judgement at this time. And was she kidnapped? Well to me that kind of goes with the first question.
She is in the home with parents she is angry with, and the boy she thinks she loves. The boy she thinks she loves pulls out a gun and shoots her dad and then her mom and says come on lets go. He is still holding the gun, even though it isn't pointed at her.
If she didn't know it was going to happen, the noise, the blood, the tension she had been under, the violence, the quickness it all happened. And he is standing there still holding the gun. If he said come on let's go, even now at my age, I would probably go. No more force needed. The force is implied, because what would happen if you say no. Only she can know what was in her head that day. And only she can say if she actually felt any duress to leave with him.
But by her saying now that she went with him willingly, then that puts a different spin on things. Makes me want to question more on whether she knew what was going to happen.

 

[newtv]

NG has a teaser that maybe kara went with david willingly
(but I take it all with a grain of salt-till i know more)

and know it from those representing her.

sharpen the knives...

 

[concernedperson]

Lots to be discovered. Put facts before me and I look hard at them. I don't think Kara is without a flaw....but did she conspire to commit murder? That is David, to me at this point.

 

[docwho3]

More info:
Ludwig is saying she ran down the road after him as he started to leave.
I am not commenting on what this news means exactly as I don't yet know.

"Ludwig told detectives that after the killings, he couldn't find Kara Borden. He said he started to drive away and saw her running down the road toward him.

She got in the car and said she wanted to "get as far away as possible, get married, and start a new life," Ludwig told detectives."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051122/ap_on_re_us/parents_slain

Things are starting to look bad on Kara. But I still question her culpability. Was she in an inappropriate relationship? yes. Was she possibly lying and sneaking around her parents wishes? Yes, most likely. Those types of things happen commonly with kids this age. Was she involved in the planning of her pearents death? Currently being investigated, and I am withholding judgement at this time. And was she kidnapped? Well to me that kind of goes with the first question.
She is in the home with parents she is angry with, and the boy she thinks she loves. The boy she thinks she loves pulls out a gun and shoots her dad and then her mom and says come on lets go. He is still holding the gun, even though it isn't pointed at her.
If she didn't know it was going to happen, the noise, the blood, the tension she had been under, the violence, the quickness it all happened. And he is standing there still holding the gun. If he said come on let's go, even now at my age, I would probably go. No more force needed. The force is implied, because what would happen if you say no. Only she can know what was in her head that day. And only she can say if she actually felt any duress to leave with him.
But by her saying now that she went with him willingly, then that puts a different spin on things. Makes me want to question more on whether she knew what was going to happen.

 

[reb]

frankly it doesn't surprise me one bit that she's not an innocent little lamb.

and OMG,, weeeeeeeeeiiiirrrrrd. that "barn" site, he talks like a normal person. and all of a sudden (within the span of a few months??), he becomes this "other personality" where teens become black street thugs, saying things like "what up yo" and "shizit" and "biotch" what, did he just "discover" snoop dog, eminem and 50-cent, the stuff all the other kids were listening to, and suddenly decided that " life" was cool....??

from steve huff's article:

<<David Ludwig's faith seemed similar to that of many who went on to do far worse than he was alleged to have done on November 13, 2005. Like religious leaders in the past who managed to live long enough to manipulate the beliefs and spiritual desires of others to the degree that many died because of their supposedly shared beliefs, Ludwig appeared to grasp on some level just what a strong tool his surface presentation of ardent Christianity could be. (SO TRUE!!!!!)


The question yet to be answered a week after he allegedly committed two cold-blooded murders was whether or not he'd begun to perfect the manipulation in his relationship with Kara Beth Borden.>>


i do think he's a psychopath in the making.

 

[IdahoMom]

Sorry, but, imo she should know, at 14 yrs, the difference between right and wrong. She was raised in a family-centered environment. If she is in any way culpable in the murder of her parents, I hope she receives the maximum punishment possible.

She knew what she was doing with Ludwig was wrong. Her parents were trying to stop things from going any further between the two.

I feel very sorry for her parents, siblings and extended family. Her parents only had her best interests in mind, and they paid dearly for taking a stand on her behalf. It's way too easy for parents to turn the other cheek and take the easy way out- these two didn't and the consequences were deadly.

 

[JBean]

Sorry, but, imo she should know, at 14 yrs, the difference between right and wrong. She was raised in a family-centered environment. If she is in any way culpable in the murder of her parents, I hope she receives the maximum punishment possible.

She knew what she was doing with Ludwig was wrong. Her parents were trying to stop things from going any further between the two.

I feel very sorry for her parents, siblings and extended family. Her parents only had her best interests in mind, and they paid dearly for taking a stand on her behalf. It's way too easy for parents to turn the other cheek and take the easy way out- these two didn't and the consequences were deadly.

You are right on IM.:clap:

 

[concernedperson]

Oh, I so want her to be just a victim otherwise it shakes our core. What if every teenager has another agenda that is so totally against what we hope and what we hope to be the next adults. Or we looking at total denial? I just don't understand these crimes with teens involved.

 

[chicoliving]

From NG tonite it was reported that she ran down the street after Ludwig after he had already got into the car and drove away...in effect "flagging him down". I'll post the link when its available....some reporter from the area reported this from the court docs.

 

[KatherineQ]

Oh, I so want her to be just a victim otherwise it shakes our core. What if every teenager has another agenda that is so totally against what we hope and what we hope to be the next adults. Or we looking at total denial? I just don't understand these crimes with teens involved.

CP - look at her pictures. She has no hidden agenda at all. Her agenda was right up front and center, for all to see. It's not like it was some hidden thing inside her no one could tell this was going to happen - this feels like looking at Scott Dyleski's picture. When you see that, you think Good God, look at that!

They saw it, they knew it, they just didn't know how to react and they certainly didn't think that loser boyfriend would kill them. But it's not like a total surprise lurking inside a seemingly well-adjusted kid.

 

[reb]

i'm not surprised at all,, in fact i suspected this all along. as katherineQ says, she is "frighteningly hollow" and one has to wonder,, with such a supposedly loving, close and traditional family how did she become this way?

and it's obvious the both of them are not too bright. (leaving to go far away and start a family? uh,,,, how? and you have witnesses to your murders, idiot.)

but (i do agree with those who say---) sorry, but at age 14 you know what is right and what is wrong,, unless you are brain damaged, developmentally retarded, or seriously mentally ill. i don't care how many hormones you have raging, or how pliable your young, confused mind is.... DON'T tell me that you're going to stand there and have your boyfriend murder your parents in cold blood and then say you didn't know right from wrong. she wasn't brainwahsed, nor was she in an abusive situation.

 

[concernedperson]

This chit stinks and so many of you are right. Yesterday, when I woke up and I thought I will just proceed with normal everyday stuff and then realized that life is not normal everyday stuff. I am having a hard time putting one foot in front of the other.

 

[englishleigh]

I had a feeling all along Kara would end up being part of this. Like someone said, you can tell from her pictures that she wasn't Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. How she could run down the street after that loser-boyfriend while her parents lay dead and bleeding in the house, and her siblings traumatized, get in the car with him after he just blew away her parents, and travel 600 miles with him on the way to a "new life"...it just is beyond my comprehension. I've been 14 before and I've been totally obsessed-in-"love" with a guy before, but I could never have done what Kara has done.

God rest her poor parents, who were only trying to do just that...parent their apparently-wild daughter.

 

[concernedperson]

This just sucks. What happened to shake her core?

 

[KatherineQ]

frankly it doesn't surprise me one bit that she's not an innocent little lamb.

and OMG,, weeeeeeeeeiiiirrrrrd. that "barn" site, he talks like a normal person. and all of a sudden (within the span of a few months??), he becomes this "other personality" where teens become black street thugs, saying things like "what up yo" and "shizit" and "biotch" what, did he just "discover" snoop dog, eminem and 50-cent, the stuff all the other kids were listening to, and suddenly decided that " life" was cool....??

from steve huff's article:

<<David Ludwig's faith seemed similar to that of many who went on to do far worse than he was alleged to have done on November 13, 2005. Like religious leaders in the past who managed to live long enough to manipulate the beliefs and spiritual desires of others to the degree that many died because of their supposedly shared beliefs, Ludwig appeared to grasp on some level just what a strong tool his surface presentation of ardent Christianity could be. (SO TRUE!!!!!)


The question yet to be answered a week after he allegedly committed two cold-blooded murders was whether or not he'd begun to perfect the manipulation in his relationship with Kara Beth Borden.>>


i do think he's a psychopath in the making.

I agree. His veiled threat to tell that Hawaiian girl's parents they had "gone too far" is over the top. Completely manipulative, in a very devious way. He found her fear, and he poked at it. He'd warn her before he told her parents. Oh my . . .