Identified! PA - Philadelphia - 'Boy in the Box' - 4UMPA - Feb'57 #3 - Joseph Augustus Zarelli

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  • #661
I'm not sure where this "mentally fragile/ mentally ill, narrative is coming from.

This person had a good career in a very demanding industry.

If anything.....
Her seeking professional help, underscores the validity of this story.

I in no way implied that there is anything wrong with seeking help.

But the police found that she had a history of mental health issues (At issue was whether "M", who has a history of mental problems, could have fabricated the entire story.). She was seeing a psychiatrist at a time when it was possible that the psychiatrist may have had a hand in recovering her memories that may not be true, as I think I made clear in my post. Roseanne Arnold is a famous example of this. M's story could not be corroborated in any way. I think it could be a product of a recovered memory that was false. I was not casting aspersions on M as a person.
 
  • #662
That's interesting, cause it means the child was registered. And not hidden.

Not at that point. Would the birth certificate show where he was born? Which hospital or if it was a home delivery?
 
  • #663
As an aside, what demanding industry was M's career in? I have seen that she was a "businesswoman," but nothing specific.
 
  • #664
Not at that point. Would the birth certificate show where he was born? Which hospital or if it was a home delivery?
Probably, IMO.
 
  • #665
Hm. Interesting thought because we know JT's mother has tested and that they believe she is a first cousin to JAZ-- that's a pretty close connection-- and she has a Zarelli uncle. Would it be likely that there is a closer relative on the Zarelli side in Italy? If not, does that mean Z is the maternal side since the paternal side is in Italy? So many people are sure that the Z's are mother's side and so many believe that the Z's are dad's side.

JT's mother only tested after JT was contacted. JT, it seems, hadn't uploaded to GEDmatch, so his Ancestry test couldn't be used for genetic genealogy to directly compare with Joseph. I suspect that a more distant cousin of Joseph (who was paternal and was on GEDmatch) was contacted and allowed the researchers to look at their Ancestry matches, and that's where JT came in. Or, like others have suggested, they contacted him after looking at the birth certificate because he was one of the 'closer' relatives they could find with research.

The article saying that JT's mother's uncle was a Zarelli, and that JT's mother was a first cousin of Joseph, implies that Joseph's father was a Zarelli. This sequence of events was likely part of confirming Joseph's father on his birth certificate was accurate with DNA - having already identified his mother.
 
  • #666
As an aside, what demanding industry was M's career in? I have seen that she was a "businesswoman," but nothing specific.
Scientist at a major pharmaceutical company.
 
  • #667
As an aside, what demanding industry was M's career in? I have seen that she was a "businesswoman," but nothing specific.
She worked in research for a well-known pharmaceutical company. I personally feel like LE made her sound much more "unstable" than she really was. It seems like she was very traumatized by her parents growing up, which undoubtedly takes a toll on someone's mental health! But I don't personally think she was "mentally ill" enough to not be taken seriously.
 
  • #668
JT's mother only tested after JT was contacted. JT, it seems, hadn't uploaded to GEDmatch, so his Ancestry test couldn't be used for genetic genealogy to directly compare with Joseph. I suspect that a more distant cousin of Joseph (who was paternal and was on GEDmatch) was contacted and allowed the researchers to look at their Ancestry matches, and that's where JT came in. Or, like others have suggested, they contacted him after looking at the birth certificate because he was one of the 'closer' relatives they could find with research.

The article saying that JT's mother's uncle was a Zarelli, and that JT's mother was a first cousin of Joseph, implies that Joseph's father was a Zarelli. This sequence of events was likely part of confirming Joseph's father on his birth certificate was accurate with DNA - having already identified his mother.
That's exactly what I was wondering-- if the timeline they rolled out with the DNA had JT connected to mom or dad. Actually would love to see a drawn out detailed timeline of this investigation, including the DNA progress etc. More of a visual learner I guess, haha. I'm one of those people that would have red yarn connecting all the pins on the cork board lol.
 
  • #669
She worked in research for a well-known pharmaceutical company. I personally feel like LE made her sound much more "unstable" than she really was. It seems like she was very traumatized by her parents growing up, which undoubtedly takes a toll on someone's mental health! But I don't personally think she was "mentally ill" enough to not be taken seriously.
I felt like her saying all this childhood stuff about her mom was fairly popular at the time. A friend of mine used to say that her mom tried to poison her with Beanie Weenies. There is also a tendency to project trauma inflicted onto oneself unto others. I'm sure her mom was abusive etc.
 
  • #670
She worked in research for a well-known pharmaceutical company. I personally feel like LE made her sound much more "unstable" than she really was. It seems like she was very traumatized by her parents growing up, which undoubtedly takes a toll on someone's mental health! But I don't personally think she was "mentally ill" enough to not be taken seriously.
I've always thought she was treated the same way most folks were treated back then, who had mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. Basically, treated like lepers and disparaged. Ironically, if her story is true, and her mother was the kind of monster she described, it makes perfect sense why she'd have mental health issues.

That said, while I don't really care who little Joseph's bio parents were, I do want to know most of all, who the piece of trash was the he was last with, that beat him, starved him and discarded him like trash. If that was a Z., let's hear the truth of it. If the Z. family sent him to live with someone else, well let's hear the truth of that too. This little boy deserves to have the truth known, and if at all possible, the person(s) responsible for his death, held accountable.

jmo
 
  • #671
The 2019 results were uploaded to DNA databases and “interpreted” by genealogists working on the case, Smith said. Based on the results, detectives were able to track down possible relatives of Zarelli on his mother’s side. More testing and investigation followed, which led to the identification of Zarelli’s mother.

Through a court order, detectives were then able to obtain from the state the birth, death and adoption records of all the children born to the mother between 1944 and 1956. The order yielded “responsive results:” the birth certificates of two children born to the mother and who were previously known to investigators, one of whom had provided a DNA sample, Smith said.


The third result was the birth certificate of a boy born to the mother in 1953. On that birth certificate was the name of the child’s father. Based on research from detectives and genealogists, the detectives contacted possible relatives of the child on his father’s side, Smith said.

Zarelli’s father was identified after genealogists established DNA connections on both sides of the family that could point only to that progenitor, said Colleen Fitzpatrick, the founder and president of Identifiers International, which specializes in genetic genealogy.
So Zarelli is either the mother's name or the father's. I guess unwed mother. So the whole secret is the actual name of both parents. The siblings mentioned in the press are either later children by the mother or by the father and thus half siblings.
 
  • #672
Scientist at a major pharmaceutical company.

She worked in research for a well-known pharmaceutical company. I personally feel like LE made her sound much more "unstable" than she really was. It seems like she was very traumatized by her parents growing up, which undoubtedly takes a toll on someone's mental health! But I don't personally think she was "mentally ill" enough to not be taken seriously.

I assumed she worked for P&G.

As I said, I don't think she was lying, I just don't think her account was true. Mental health issues could mean a whole range of things. I don't think it's fair to say LE didn't take her seriously; they thoroughly investigated her story and considered it a credible lead. It just didn't go anywhere. And I agree that abuse by your parents can give you mental health issues. I just don't happen to think her story is "the" story, for the reasons I stated. My opinion only, YMMV.
 
  • #673
Scientist at a major pharmaceutical company.
I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind discrediting this woman at all. They say it was because they couldn't find any solid evidence to substantiate her claims...but how about the good samaritan that stopped to help them change a tire that night? He had the same story. Unless she was fed that info. They will be lucky to find any solid evidence at all-- it was decades ago. What would they accept? This was a firsthand account. Again, unless she gave them a totally bonkers story that they knew couldn't be true.
 
  • #674
The 2019 results were uploaded to DNA databases and “interpreted” by genealogists working on the case, Smith said. Based on the results, detectives were able to track down possible relatives of Zarelli on his mother’s side. More testing and investigation followed, which led to the identification of Zarelli’s mother.

Through a court order, detectives were then able to obtain from the state the birth, death and adoption records of all the children born to the mother between 1944 and 1956. The order yielded “responsive results:” the birth certificates of two children born to the mother and who were previously known to investigators, one of whom had provided a DNA sample, Smith said.


The third result was the birth certificate of a boy born to the mother in 1953. On that birth certificate was the name of the child’s father. Based on research from detectives and genealogists, the detectives contacted possible relatives of the child on his father’s side, Smith said.

Zarelli’s father was identified after genealogists established DNA connections on both sides of the family that could point only to that progenitor, said Colleen Fitzpatrick, the founder and president of Identifiers International, which specializes in genetic genealogy.
So Zarelli is either the mother's name or the father's. I guess unwed mother. So the whole secret is the actual name of both parents. The siblings mentioned in the press are either later children by the mother or by the father and thus half siblings.
 
  • #675
Scientist at a major pharmaceutical company.

She worked in research for a well-known pharmaceutical company. I personally feel like LE made her sound much more "unstable" than she really was. It seems like she was very traumatized by her parents growing up, which undoubtedly takes a toll on someone's mental health! But I don't personally think she was "mentally ill" enough to not be taken seriously.

I assumed she worked for P&G.

As I said, I don't think she was lying, I just don't think her account was true. Mental health issues could mean a whole range of things. I don't think it's fair to say LE didn't take her seriously; they thoroughly investigated her story and considered it a credible lead. It just didn't go anywhere. And I agree that abuse by your parents can give you mental health issues. I just don't happen to think her story is "the" story, for the reasons I stated. My opinion only, YMMV.
 
  • #676
Scientist at a major pharmaceutical company.
I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind discrediting this woman at all. They say it was because they couldn't find any solid evidence to substantiate her claims...but how about the good samaritan that stopped to help them change a tire that night? He had the same story. Unless she was fed that info. They will be lucky to find any solid evidence at all-- it was decades ago. What would they accept? This was a firsthand account. Again, unless she gave them a totally bonkers story that they knew couldn't be true.
 
  • #677
I've always thought she was treated the same way most folks were treated back then, who had mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. Basically, treated like lepers and disparaged. Ironically, if her story is true, and her mother was the kind of monster she described, it makes perfect sense why she'd have mental health issues.

That said, while I don't really care who little Joseph's bio parents were, I do want to know most of all, who the piece of trash was the he was last with, that beat him, starved him and discarded him like trash. If that was a Z., let's hear the truth of it. If the Z. family sent him to live with someone else, well let's hear the truth of that too. This little boy deserves to have the truth known, and if at all possible, the person(s) responsible for his death, held accountable.
The child was not inoculated either.
 
  • #678
Were M's parents (the librarian and the science teacher - per previously linked report on thread) ever named. Is it public knowledge that these were their occupations? And, the assumption from M's account... these parents simply purchased a child to physically abuse??
 
  • #679
I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind discrediting this woman at all. They say it was because they couldn't find any solid evidence to substantiate her claims...but how about the good samaritan that stopped to help them change a tire that night? He had the same story. Unless she was fed that info. They will be lucky to find any solid evidence at all-- it was decades ago. What would they accept? This was a firsthand account. Again, unless she gave them a totally bonkers story that they knew couldn't be true.
Well she stated for a fact that her mother murdered JAZ. Should we just take this at face value?

She came forward in 2002.
 
  • #680
JT's mother only tested after JT was contacted. JT, it seems, hadn't uploaded to GEDmatch, so his Ancestry test couldn't be used for genetic genealogy to directly compare with Joseph. I suspect that a more distant cousin of Joseph (who was paternal and was on GEDmatch) was contacted and allowed the researchers to look at their Ancestry matches, and that's where JT came in. Or, like others have suggested, they contacted him after looking at the birth certificate because he was one of the 'closer' relatives they could find with research.

The article saying that JT's mother's uncle was a Zarelli, and that JT's mother was a first cousin of Joseph, implies that Joseph's father was a Zarelli. This sequence of events was likely part of confirming Joseph's father on his birth certificate was accurate with DNA - having already identified his mother.
Consider that Jt's mother's mother ( grandmother) was almost certainly one of the Zarelli sisters if his uncle was a Zarelli. Therefore the Zarelli's would be maternal to Joseph based on what we know so far.
 
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