PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I would note that RFG could basically have everything, in terms of known expenses/assets, if he started 2003 with zero assets. His divorce was finalized in 2001, so it is hugely unlikely he started 2003 with zero assets. He should not have had any long term debt from that period. I checked once and the house was sold for a higher price that the purchase price, so it was not underwater.

Second, there could other unknown assets out there. For example, RFG could have chosen to invest a lot of savings in US savings bonds. That would not show up in bank accounts. He could have bought gold (and would have tripled or quadrupled his investment by 2011), and all of it was sitting in a safe deposit box. That would not show up in his bank accounts either.

It is possible that RFG's estate was much larger than given.

 

[SeekingJana]

It is possible that RFG's estate was much larger than given.

Regardless of how much is known to have been in his estate, are probated wills not public record in PA? Can a person obtain a copy through the FOIA?

We need to stop speculating on how much he left and have an accounting of it and go from there if need be.

 

[Trackergd]

Does make one wonder what RFG was doing with his money.

Not sure how many children he has, but any good father would be doing nice things for their kids whenever possible, helping with first car, college costs etc.

He was also living at a level that he had become accustomed to. I know folks who make 80 grand that live in half a twin or a modest house. 120 grand would be about enough to pay the mortgage on a nice house and drive a nice car with a bit left over for hobbies and indulging kids.

 

[Trackergd]

Regardless of how much is known to have been in his estate, are probated wills not public record in PA? Can a person obtain a copy through the FOIA?

We need to stop speculating on how much he left and have an accounting of it and go from there if need be.

I wish... I was not able to get a copy of my dads and I am the senior son. His will was never probated and I was told I had to hire an attorney to get a copy.

 

[SeekingJana]

I wish... I was not able to get a copy of my dads and I am the senior son. His will was never probated and I was told I had to hire an attorney to get a copy.

So, IOW, with an attorney, one can obtain a will or only if there is a relationship to the deceased? I wouldn't consider making any endeavor into a legal matter without an attorney.

You are not taking Barbara Gray's income and motherhood of Lara into account when you say Ray would have spent thus and so. As has been said here many times, she had the higher income of the two parents.

Also, I have had many friends whose parents were quite wealthy and they absolutely instilled a work ethic in their young adult children, not giving them cruises, trips to Europe, new cars, apartments, or paying college tuition. ( It was expected that all of us would obtain academic scholarships through excellence, and we did because we set the same standards or higher for ourselves).

I've found that people more firmly in the middle class indulged teens, but not 20-somethings. Before 2000, young adults ( 20 and up) were expected to make their own way in the world, at least in my experience, and the ones who didn't ended up like the pathetic Kennedy kids and their Skakel and Smith cousins. ( murderers).

 

[Trackergd]

So, IOW, with an attorney, one can obtain a will or only if there is a relationship to the deceased? I wouldn't consider making any endeavor into a legal matter without an attorney.

You are not taking Barbara Gray's income and motherhood of Lara into account when you say Ray would have spent thus and so. As has been said here many times, she had the higher income of the two parents.

Also, I have had many friends whose parents were quite wealthy and they absolutely instilled a work ethic in their young adult children, not giving them cruises, trips to Europe, new cars, apartments, or paying college tuition. ( It was expected that all of us would obtain academic scholarships through excellence, and we did because we set the same standards or higher for ourselves).

I've found that people more firmly in the middle class indulged teens, but not 20-somethings. Before 2000, young adults ( 20 and up) were expected to make their own way in the world, at least in my experience, and the ones who didn't ended up like the pathetic Kennedy kids and their Skakel and Smith cousins. ( murderers).

RBBM. It was a suggestion for consideration..that's all. I do know a bit about the law having been a Special Deputy and Zoning Judge, hence my surprise at being told I must hire an attorney to view my fathers will. I was not "handed" anything when I was young (I am 58), but my father did on occasion do nice things for my brother and I like help us with getting our first car and our first homes. We both turned out pretty well. That is all I was getting at...not trips to Europe or anything like that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have not heard that the will was probated or that it was done so publicly. It would be something likely to be reported.

As for BG, from what I can determine, she was making more than RFG from roughly 1979 onward. I would suspect that she would contribute more to the daughter's support than RFG did, for that reason.

Also keep in mind that we are talking about 2003. I think PSU was, at the time, the most expensive public school in the nation. Tuition for the year was $8,008 per year!

I'm not seeing LG, BG, or RFG as having a lavish lifestyle.

 

[Saunterer]

Gricar had a will, but no widow. Probated wills are public information. Contested wills are public information, unless sealed by a court of competent jurisdiction. I appoint JJ to find and post Ray Gricar's Last Will & Testament, as well as the final Executor's or Administrator's account. I think it would be not only in the public interest, but enlightening to all posters here.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't believe the will was contested.

I'm also wondering about estate planning. I'm wondering if he could have moved some money into some type of annuity that would have had tax advantages.

Something else, all local elected officials have are required to file financial disclosure forms, which are public records. That might yield some information (and there about a decade's worth of quite boring ones on me).

RFG and BG only had one child; as far as I know, there was no half sibling.

 

[Trackergd]

I don't believe the will was contested.

I'm also wondering about estate planning. I'm wondering if he could have moved some money into some type of annuity that would have had tax advantages.

Something else, all local elected officials have are required to file financial disclosure forms, which are public records. That might yield some information (and there about a decade's worth of quite boring ones on me).

RFG and BG only had one child; as far as I know, there was no half sibling.

I guess a probated will would show who the money and property went to, and one would assume family and close friends named in the will.

I would submit "follow the money" might not be out of place as a part of our sleuthing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since some of this has been released, and some of it is a matter of public record, I would not find it inappropriate.

Things like RFG's salary are published.

I'm surprised that no one from the media has checked.

 

[Saunterer]

Since some of this has been released, and some of it is a matter of public record, I would not find it inappropriate.

Things like RFG's salary are published.

I'm surprised that no one from the media has checked.

I must say I am surprised that few have apparently bothered to check on the terms of the will or the account distribution in Ray Gricar's estate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not certain if the value of the estate would be a matter of public record.

There would also be some question what would be in the estate. LG was on his bank accounts, for example. Assume that the account had $102,000 in that, all of which RFG put in. It would be considered a joint asset and valued at $51,000.

There are also things like life insurance that is not subject to taxation.

I'm looking for two different things:

1. Where did the money go?

2. Is there any more evidence of estate planning?

 

[Saunterer]

Well, can we stop the guessing? Would someone please just post Gricar's will and the final estate account filed in Centre County?.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That might not show too much, as indicated. RFG, even in terms of estate planning, could have moved money into things like life insurance/annuities. That would have happened prior to his disappearance, obviously. That would not show up in probate.

There are still the questions going back to his shift to full time status in 1997-8.

 

[Saunterer]

That might not show too much, as indicated. RFG, even in terms of estate planning, could have moved money into things like life insurance/annuities. That would have happened prior to his disappearance, obviously. That would not show up in probate.

There are still the questions going back to his shift to full time status in 1997-8.

Duly noted. My simple request still remains. Would someone please just post Gricar's will and the final estate account filed in Centre County?

 

[SeekingJana]

Totally agree that it's time to stop guessing and get a copy of the will. It would, at least, give us a general idea of his state of mind regarding his financial assets to be distributed through legal means.

We could also get more of an idea when the final will was written. This also possibly speaks to Mr. Gricar''s advance planning, which may or may not have changed. If the estate planning and will preparation or revision were done extremely close to April 15, then he MAY have either had plans or he MAY have had unspoken fears regarding his personal safety and felt the need to get his financials in order.
All of it fits together.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Jana, that is an exceptionally good suggestion.

The will itself will not what the assets were, but when RFG signed it might show if he thought he would be around.

Estate planning could explain a lot of things.

 

[SeekingJana]

I live 1200 miles away. I can't go to PA and get the will or other documents we are discussing.

Can a PA poster in the area please step up and get this in process?

Also, can anyone think of any other documentation in the public realm which might be beneficial? Are police reports available after a period of years ? I guess not if this actually is considered to be an " active investigation" although he was declared legally dead last year.

I would like to see the initial "Missing" report for starters. Start at the beginning and go from there. Maybe FOIA kicks in once the person is leally deceased, I don't know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm about 200 miles away, by road, so it would have to be someone closer.

The police reports are not public, unfortunately.

FOIA applies to the federal government and might not apply in an ongoing investigation (and technically, it is).

The DA's Office has even refused to say who is on the review panel.