PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[SuperSmith]

It is clear that Ray Gricar, his office, and the Drug Task Force made many enemies over the years and probably hurt the same suppliers more than once.

This is clearly motive to seek revenge upon Ray Gricar and have him murdered. This points to the foul play scenario obviously.

As readers here can see there is only one poster that remains steadfast in shooting down the foul play possibilities.

 

[SuperSmith]

Gricar will work closely with police through his position on the Board of Chiefs, established by the task force. Police chiefs from the various departments involved will meet once a month to discuss the effectiveness and operations of the task force, Gricar said.

The task force's main goals will be to increase enforcement and prosecution, Gricar said, but it will not work to change the sentences received by drug offenders.

"We expect the task force efforts will result in more arrests and more charges," he said.

Assistant District Attorney Karen Kuebler will prosecute all drug cases that pass through the Centre County Courthouse, and Gricar will continue his specialization as a prosecutor in domestic violence cases and those involving sexual offenders, he said.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_9f1fa2f6-7b47-598b-96f6-78c3106e9d9c.html

How much more evidence is needed???????

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If Gricar or his office had no involvement in the LEE case he would not have been part of the press conference. That is pretty clear. Probably didn't make Corbett too happy that Gricar and the Centre County Drug Task force took down Lee 10 weeks before this press conference.

I don't believe that is a reasonable assumption, since of the 5 defendants in the Lee ring, where we know the prosecutor, all were prosecuted by the AG's Office.

As noted, the Centre County DA's Office didn't investigate cases on its own; it relied on the local police.

 

[SuperSmith]

I don't believe that is a reasonable assumption, since of the 5 defendants in the Lee ring, where we know the prosecutor, all were prosecuted by the AG's Office.

As noted, the Centre County DA's Office didn't investigate cases on its own; it relied on the local police.

It actually was 7 other defendants. 6 of the 7 entered a plea agreement to testify against Lee. This was happening the very days right before RG's disappearance and directly after.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_399a8a7a-59b5-5eaa-b516-328d8bd82285.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

The police are assuming he was in Lewisburg due to the Mini, Laptop, and a few eyewitnesses but none of that stacks up to hardcore evidence like video, photos, receipts, etc would.

And the is evidence that he was there, both physical and eyewitness evidence.

Well, I can. He could have been told NOT to tell anyone of this meeting because of the sensitive nature or information that was to be given. He could've also been told to bring his laptop.

A laptop containing data that he was he was looking at destroying?

Leaving no notes or reference to any such meeting certainly would not fit into that. Even a calendar note, "Meeting X in Lewisburg," would be indicative. There was nothing like that.

A clandestine meeting, 50 miles from home, in a different media market

He WOULD NOT have met with known drug dealer but perhaps a compromised informant. His office WAS involved with drug informants.

I am not too sure of either. The police meet with informants, but not necessarily the DA, and RFG going 50 miles from home to meet with one would be suspicious, to say the least.

If was in Lewisburg than he could've gotten into another car with this informant hence the bloodhound hit in the parking lot.

Possible, but why? The informant could give him the information in a public place.

Perception of evidence is different for many people. Just because it doesn't line up with your perception or research doesn't make it any less likely.

Well, we have no other suggestions of RFG going off to meat an informant. And, it would be strange, not to leave some notes or files on such a meeting.

As DA he was the department head so he was privy to all critical information and he may have had a list of confidential informants that is not admissible in any court proceedings especially if they were run by the AG.

RFG was not the one to investigate as a rule. The way Victim 6 was handled is a good example; the PSU police did the investigation directly. RFG wasn't the one hiding in the bathroom to overhear Sandusky.

Sorry this line doesn't make sense to me.

There have been suggestions that RFG was in the CIA or had a "secret life." I have had people ask if RFG could have been a Russian agent that went home. Absolutely impossible? No. Virtually impossible? Yes.

The connection with the disappearance and the Lee case is, at best, as likely as those things.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It actually was 7 other defendants. 6 of the 7 entered a plea agreement to testify against Lee. This was happening the very days right before RG's disappearance and directly after.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_399a8a7a-59b5-5eaa-b516-328d8bd82285.html

That just deals with them waiving their preliminary hearing. That wasn't a plea agreement.

The AG's Office press release listed 9. http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=86

We know that Lee and four of the others were prosecuted by the AG's Office. Now, if there is any evidence that the Centre County DA's Office was involved in prosecuting the other four, I would like to see it.

So far, there has not been.

 

[SuperSmith]

Snipped.



And the is evidence that he was there, both physical and eyewitness evidence.



A laptop containing data that he was he was looking at destroying?

Leaving no notes or reference to any such meeting certainly would not fit into that. Even a calendar note, "Meeting X in Lewisburg," would be indicative. There was nothing like that.

A clandestine meeting, 50 miles from home, in a different media market



I am not too sure of either. The police meet with informants, but not necessarily the DA, and RFG going 50 miles from home to meet with one would be suspicious, to say the least.



Possible, but why? The informant could give him the information in a public place.



Well, we have no other suggestions of RFG going off to meat an informant. And, it would be strange, not to leave some notes or files on such a meeting.




RFG was not the one to investigate as a rule. The way Victim 6 was handled is a good example; the PSU police did the investigation directly. RFG wasn't the one hiding in the bathroom to overhear Sandusky.




There have been suggestions that RFG was in the CIA or had a "secret life." I have had people ask if RFG could have been a Russian agent that went home. Absolutely impossible? No. Virtually impossible? Yes.

The connection with the disappearance and the Lee case is, at best, as likely as those things.

Uggghh, you're comparing the possibility of Ray Gricar being a Russian agent with the possibility that Gricar was killed as revenge for costing a drug dealer millions?

A secret meeting with a drug informant would not be noted, advertised, or told to his girlfriend. Hence the word secret.

Obviously I cannot convince you that the drug bust is a possibility of Gricar meeting foul play. I wonder if I said the drug bust was a reason Gricar walked away if you would still be arguing my points.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Uggghh, you're comparing the possibility of Ray Gricar being a Russian agent with the possibility that Gricar was killed as revenge for costing a drug dealer millions?

Yes, since there is no evidence that RFG cost this particular as much as a penny. There does not to seem to be any involvement of RFG in this case.

For decades, drug dealings in the US have lost millions, maybe billions to police. That is the price of doing illegal business (and part of the reason drugs cost so much). Rarely, if ever, has a prosecutor been killed over it, in the US.

A secret meeting with a drug informant would not be noted, advertised, or told to his girlfriend. Hence the word secret.

Notes would be. Even prosecutors may have to reveal their sources in court. And, there would be a file any active case.

Obviously I cannot convince you that the drug bust is a possibility of Gricar meeting foul play. I wonder if I said the drug bust was a reason Gricar walked away if you would still be arguing my points.

I think the first thing would be showing that RFG was actually prosecuting someone involved in the Lee case. At this point, we can say that of the 9 defendants in the Lee, RFG and the Centre County DA's Office did not prosecute Lee and four other defendants.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

From what I can tell from here, Madeira prosecuted all the cases related to Lee: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_2f28ddc2-0250-5425-a54d-22c5cf50317e.html

 

[SeekingJana]

For Gricar case followers, last Sept. was the last time we had any new info related to him, even if it didn't pan out.. I think most people have discounted the " Hell's Angels", " Spun kneecaps" and "thrown in a well" stories by now.

Here are the links in case someone was away during that time.. All were said to fit together, but in reality, it seems that none did.

1) Some info on Hell's Angels theory
http://www.ibtimes.com/ray-gricar-d...ered-hells-angel-new-claim-points-yes-1409182

2) Buried in a mine shaft theory
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/09/is_ray_gricar_buried_in_a_mine.html

3) AND the always colorful U.K. Mail Online offered up the gory story of slit throat and spun kneecaps:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...A-knee-caps-spun-throat-slit-Hells-Angel.html

I truly think we would have heard something if ANY of these things had happened. The stories fizzled out, and chances are, at least 2 people are still serving prison sentences instead of trading their " info" for freedom.

I'm bringing this back to light because it's easy to get " caught up in the moment" and believe the theory of the day. I hope that in 2014, we will get solid info, clues, news, something.

Until then, this case remains one of the most speculative I've ever encountered in 35+ years of following true crime.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped:

I truly think we would have heard something if ANY of these things had happened. The stories fizzled out, and chances are, at least 2 people are still serving prison sentences instead of trading their " info" for freedom.

I'm bringing this back to light because it's easy to get " caught up in the moment" and believe the theory of the day. I hope that in 2014, we will get solid info, clues, news, something.

Until then, this case remains one of the most speculative I've ever encountered in 35+ years of following true crime.

I think some of the speculation is manufactured. The Lee case, for example, was discussed and, other than attending a press conference (with other area DA's), RFG, and the Centre County DA's Office, had no role in that case, from what we can tell. That was noted as early as first fortnight after RFG disappeared: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1391340/posts

One of the reasons that we see that, in the words of one resident, "We just think he just walked away. And everybody thinks he`s still alive(previously linked)," is because of these theories that get tossed. The more people try to push them, where the evidence does not support them, the more people dismiss any foul play theory.

 

[SuperSmith]

It really is of little consequence WHO prosecuted the individuals involved with Lee and the drug bust. With most of them entering a plea agreement MM easily could have handled that.

What Lee's suppliers saw was a press conference where Gricar & Corbett made statements on the crack down of drug trafficking and dealing.

Who would've been more vulnerable between the two?

 

[SuperSmith]

Snipped:



I think some of the speculation is manufactured. The Lee case, for example, was discussed and, other than attending a press conference (with other area DA's), RFG, and the Centre County DA's Office, had no role in that case, from what we can tell. That was noted as early as first fortnight after RFG disappeared: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1391340/posts

One of the reasons that we see that, in the words of one resident, "We just think he just walked away. And everybody thinks he`s still alive(previously linked)," is because of these theories that get tossed. The more people try to push them, where the evidence does not support them, the more people dismiss any foul play theory.

Couldn't disagree more with this post. What you wrote here is your opinion and yours alone.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not Gricar and his office were very much involved with the Centre County Drug Task force. That's why it was formed to begin with. To pull in man power, agencies, and prosecutors together for swift justice. Gricar was at the forefront of the Press Conference announcing this large drug break up.

As I linked before when the Task force was formed it clearly stated that Karen Kuebler would be handling the drug related prosecutions. I never said Gricar prosecuted any of the individuals. He was the Chief however, was the face of the press conference, and was the DA department head. That painted him as a potential target.

This is not fantasy stuff I am posting. It is a real possibility to foul play.

 

[SuperSmith]

Snipped:




One of the reasons that we see that, in the words of one resident, "We just think he just walked away. And everybody thinks he`s still alive(previously linked)," is because of these theories that get tossed. The more people try to push them, where the evidence does not support them, the more people dismiss any foul play theory.

Not everyone in Centre County thinks Gricar walked away. Using the opinion of a restaurant worker who said some of her customers think that. Nice twist to fit the walkaway narrative.

 

[SuperSmith]

For Gricar case followers, last Sept. was the last time we had any new info related to him, even if it didn't pan out.. I think most people have discounted the " Hell's Angels", " Spun kneecaps" and "thrown in a well" stories by now.

Here are the links in case someone was away during that time.. All were said to fit together, but in reality, it seems that none did.

1) Some info on Hell's Angels theory
http://www.ibtimes.com/ray-gricar-d...ered-hells-angel-new-claim-points-yes-1409182

2) Buried in a mine shaft theory
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/09/is_ray_gricar_buried_in_a_mine.html

3) AND the always colorful U.K. Mail Online offered up the gory story of slit throat and spun kneecaps:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...A-knee-caps-spun-throat-slit-Hells-Angel.html

I truly think we would have heard something if ANY of these things had happened. The stories fizzled out, and chances are, at least 2 people are still serving prison sentences instead of trading their " info" for freedom.

I'm bringing this back to light because it's easy to get " caught up in the moment" and believe the theory of the day. I hope that in 2014, we will get solid info, clues, news, something.

Until then, this case remains one of the most speculative I've ever encountered in 35+ years of following true crime.

It's only been 3 months since the HA story broke. You also forgot to mention that BB elaborated, confirmed, and added to the original story on the radio. If the inmate wants immunity there may be some tugging going on back and forth. LE also hasn't exactly been forthcoming and before anyone quotes SW again that there is nothing to the tip you need not look any further than the NG show that just aired to see how accurate he is. What a joke.

I am glad you pointed out the speculative element of this case but you are right and that includes the Walkaway scenario as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Not everyone in Centre County thinks Gricar walked away. Using the opinion of a restaurant worker who said some of her customers think that. Nice twist to fit the walkaway narrative.

First of all, I didn't use it; it was on NG last week.

Second, that has been my experience, in talking to people up there, and my observation, in looking at their comments.

Third, there was on-line poll in 2009 about what happened to RFG, done by a local TV station. A majority voted "he ran away." That isn't a particularly good method of polling, but, unless there are a few hundred people trying to convince someone what the public opinion is, it is probably a good indication.

Fourth, we saw how a candidate for DA, that really pushed foul play, fared in the 2009 primary. We also saw how a candidate that said "homicide is the least likely," fared in 2013. Now, there were other reasons for those results, but it reinforces that.

It doesn't mean that the opinion is accurate, but these are good indications of what public opinion has been.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It really is of little consequence WHO prosecuted the individuals involved with Lee and the drug bust. With most of them entering a plea agreement MM easily could have handled that.

What Lee's suppliers saw was a press conference where Gricar & Corbett made statements on the crack down of drug trafficking and dealing.

How many 100's of governmental types have said that? How many have targeted because of that? How many were killed? How many disappeared?

I know of none in the US.

Who would've been more vulnerable between the two?

Possibly Corbett, or possibly the actual prosecutor, Madeira.

 

[SuperSmith]

I have provided a sound possibility for Ray Gricar meeting with foul play. Is it speculation at this point? Yes <modsnip>

My reasoning for bringing up this possibility is simply for it's acknowledgement. <modsnip>



In my opinion it is not fantasy to believe that a District Attorney could meet with foul play because he was one of the prominent faces for a Press Conference in which a major drug ring was taken down.

Perhaps I watch too many movies but it is easier for me to believe this scenario than to believe Ray Gricar staged a disappearance, 8 months before retirement, leaving his pension behind, leaving his girlfriend behind, leaving all his belongings behind, a 20 year stellar career, and without the benefit of seeing his beloved daughter graduate college, marry, perhaps have grandkids, and getting to enjoy the fruits of retirement.

By all accounts I've read that Gricar was looking forward to retirement to relax, to no alarm clock, to travel with his girlfriend. Seems none of that would be accomplished on the run or in hiding for 8 years.

Just because LE cannot find evidence of foul play doesn't rule it out or make walkaway likely. There has been ZERO hard evidence that he left his life and/or a credible reason for it!!!

 

[SuperSmith]

First of all, I didn't use it; it was on NG last week.

Second, that has been my experience, in talking to people up there, and my observation, in looking at their comments.

Third, there was on-line poll in 2009 about what happened to RFG, done by a local TV station. A majority voted "he ran away." That isn't a particularly good method of polling, but, unless there are a few hundred people trying to convince someone what the public opinion is, it is probably a good indication.

Fourth, we saw how a candidate for DA, that really pushed foul play, fared in the 2009 primary. We also saw how a candidate that said "homicide is the least likely," fared in 2013. Now, there were other reasons for those results, but it reinforces that.


It doesn't mean that the opinion is accurate, but these are good indications of what public opinion has been.

It was one interview from a restaurant worker who said some of her customers believed it. Are you from Centre County? We here at WS do not know who you have talked to.

Do you have a link to the poll? If not I will strike it from my thoughts.

I see no relevance or correlation between what the seated DA thought happened to Gricar and their subsequent elections and poll numbers.

 

[SuperSmith]

How many 100's of governmental types have said that? How many have targeted because of that? How many were killed? How many disappeared?

I know of none in the US.

14 confirmed in the last 100 yrs according to this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/14-prosecutors-have-been-killed_n_2995102.html

Conversely how many DA's have walked away from their life so close to retirement?