PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[SuperSmith]

I talked with prominent Centre County defense lawyer Bruce Manchester. He knew Gricar 25 years and saw him just days before he vanished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he was just ebullient. He was just very happy. He was a very good state of mind. And that`s the last time I saw him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Manchester believes Gricar was murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dealt in some high-level drug crimes, and he was a very proactive prosecutor and he made a lot of defendants very upset.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/17/ng.01.html

 

[SuperSmith]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But there are many people in this tiny community of Bellefonte who think Gricar planned his own disappearance. We stopped by the Diamond Deli, a favorite lunch spot for Gricar, right across the street from the courthouse. Arlene Milton (ph) says some of her customers are convinced Gricar had a mystery life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just think he just walked away. And everybody thinks he`s still alive. They might have found his computer and stuff in that river, but I really feel he threw it himself in there. I don`t think anybody took them because the dogs took them to the car, and there`s where the dogs stopped.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/17/ng.01.html

I don't want to knock this Deli lady however I'd much rather believe a prominent attorney, who knew Gricar for 25 years, than an uneducated server whose logic isn't logical.

No offense Arlene Milton but I highly doubt you know the consensus in Centre County on what became of Ray Gricar. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

14 confirmed in the last 100 yrs according to this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/14-prosecutors-have-been-killed_n_2995102.html

Conversely how many DA's have walked away from their life so close to retirement?

Out of those 14, two were killed in unrelated robberies. One was an innocent bystander in turf war shooting. Two others were killed in separate "courthouse shootings," where there were multiple victims.

That brings it down to 10 (there was one not listed) in a century. In none of those was a body hidden. Except for the robberies, the all occurred at the home, office, or courthouse, or in route to one of those places. This does not fit any of that pattern.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But there are many people in this tiny community of Bellefonte who think Gricar planned his own disappearance. We stopped by the Diamond Deli, a favorite lunch spot for Gricar, right across the street from the courthouse. Arlene Milton (ph) says some of her customers are convinced Gricar had a mystery life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just think he just walked away. And everybody thinks he`s still alive. They might have found his computer and stuff in that river, but I really feel he threw it himself in there. I don`t think anybody took them because the dogs took them to the car, and there`s where the dogs stopped.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/17/ng.01.html

I don't want to knock this Deli lady however I'd much rather believe a prominent attorney, who knew Gricar for 25 years, than an uneducated server whose logic isn't logical.

No offense Arlene Milton but I highly doubt you know the consensus in Centre County on what became of Ray Gricar. JMO

Manchester was a defense attorney, who I don't think knew RFG personally.

I suspect that, in coming into contact with the public daily, Ms. Milton has a pretty good idea of what they think. It corresponds to what the polling such as it is says, and the various election results. It is also what people up there tell me.

The only question is, are they right?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Actually, here is a better post: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

 

[Hbgchick]

Not everyone in Centre County thinks Gricar walked away. Using the opinion of a restaurant worker who said some of her customers think that. Nice twist to fit the walkaway narrative.

A lot of people do. From the people I have spoken with it's the majority opinion.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A lot of people do. From the people I have spoken with it's the majority opinion.

I think there has to be a distinction made here between two things.

1. What happened to Ray Gricar?

2. What do people in the area think happen to Ray Gricar?



The last one can be measured to a degree, and has been. It is not lost on me that the person who said, publicly, “The only thing I will say is that I believe homicide is the least likely, but we rule out nothing,” just was re-elected by a greater percentage than RFG ever had. That speaks volumes.

I do agree that this is majority opinion, but I'm not sure the majority is right.

 

[SuperSmith]

Manchester was a defense attorney, who I don't think knew RFG personally.

I suspect that, in coming into contact with the public daily, Ms. Milton has a pretty good idea of what they think. It corresponds to what the polling such as it is says, and the various election results. It is also what people up there tell me.

The only question is, are they right?

How would you know who knew Gricar personally? The transcript quoted him as knowing Gricar for 25 years. You don't get to make up your facts.

 

[SuperSmith]

A lot of people do. From the people I have spoken with it's the majority opinion.

And how many have you spoken to?

 

[SuperSmith]

I wonder if one of the drug informants turned on Ray. Since Union County was part of the Drug task force it could explain the meeting in Lewisburg, the need for the laptop, the secrecy of the trip, and the misguided trust.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

How would you know who knew Gricar personally? The transcript quoted him as knowing Gricar for 25 years. You don't get to make up your facts.

Because some of the people that I have talked to have. There has never any suggestion that he was ever close, personally, to RFG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder if one of the drug informants turned on Ray. Since Union County was part of the Drug task force it could explain the meeting in Lewisburg, the need for the laptop, the secrecy of the trip, and the misguided trust.

An informant, in Union County, would be unlikely to be involved in the Taji Lee case and would be exceedingly unlikely to have ever talked to anyone in the Centre County DA's Office.

 

[Mountain Misst]

I think that the ample room on this thread to discuss sound homicide/foul play theories.

Insisting on things that are not accurate, such as suggesting that RFG handling any of the Taji Lee cases, is not one of them.

For me, I try to make the theory conform to the evidence. When the evidence doesn't match the theory, I toss the theory. I had to toss a lot of theories over the years. That is actually a good thing.

Forgive my late arrival after so long and so many threads, however am poking around the entrails. I have Q's that I'm hoping you'll know off the top of your head.
Am looking to confirm Gricar's address at the time of his disappearance ie PF's address. Is it a certain number in Collins Ave, Bellefonte?
Is the physical address of the carpark where the mini was found in Market Street, Lewisburg? I found description but not address in #1 thread.

Cheers.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Forgive my late arrival after so long and so many threads, however am poking around the entrails. I have Q's that I'm hoping you'll know off the top of your head.
Am looking to confirm Gricar's address at the time of his disappearance ie PF's address. Is it a certain number in Collins Ave, Bellefonte?
Is the physical address of the carpark where the mini was found in Market Street, Lewisburg? I found description but not address in #1 thread.

Cheers.

The parking lot is it the northwest corner of St. John and Water Street. It is about 2 blocks north of the intersection of Water and Market street. It is around 109 North Water Street (according to Google Streetview). That might be the first house after the lot or the address of the SoS, across the street.

Here are some site photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The actual entrances to the parking lot are on St. Johns Street.

 

[Hbgchick]

And how many have you spoken to?

At least five that I can think of off of the top of my head.

 

[Hbgchick]

I think there has to be a distinction made here between two things.

1. What happened to Ray Gricar?

2. What do people in the area think happen to Ray Gricar?



The last one can be measured to a degree, and has been. It is not lost on me that the person who said, publicly, “The only thing I will say is that I believe homicide is the least likely, but we rule out nothing,” just was re-elected by a greater percentage than RFG ever had. That speaks volumes.

I do agree that this is majority opinion, but I'm not sure the majority is right.

Lol...exactly.

 

[Hbgchick]

I have provided a sound possibility for Ray Gricar meeting with foul play. Is it speculation at this point? Yes <modsnip>

My reasoning for bringing up this possibility is simply for it's acknowledgement. <modsnip>

In my opinion it is not fantasy to believe that a District Attorney could meet with foul play because he was one of the prominent faces for a Press Conference in which a major drug ring was taken down.

Perhaps I watch too many movies but it is easier for me to believe this scenario than to believe Ray Gricar staged a disappearance, 8 months before retirement, leaving his pension behind, leaving his girlfriend behind, leaving all his belongings behind, a 20 year stellar career, and without the benefit of seeing his beloved daughter graduate college, marry, perhaps have grandkids, and getting to enjoy the fruits of retirement.

By all accounts I've read that Gricar was looking forward to retirement to relax, to no alarm clock, to travel with his girlfriend. Seems none of that would be accomplished on the run or in hiding for 8 years.

Just because LE cannot find evidence of foul play doesn't rule it out or make walkaway likely. There has been ZERO hard evidence that he left his life and/or a credible reason for it!!!

I definitely concur that foul play is possible and certainly not fantasy. However, walkaway is more likely in my opinion. This is not based on what I believe RG might have been thinking at the time, but more on the facts as I see them. Also, to the points that you mention (relaxation, no alarm clock, travel - perhaps without his girlfriend) might give a person cause to walk away.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since we are posting older comments, here is one:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6


The problems with this theory are:

1. No evidence of bribery. We know that his estate was not large, and nobody is asking, "Where did he get all this money?" (We didn't know as much about it at the time.)

2. There was no apparent need for additional money in 1998. His salary had doubled in 1997 and his wife was working. He had purchased a house prior to 1998 and his car was a Mitsubishi, so he wasn't "living large."

However, this becomes stronger than many of the theories we've seen bandied about recently. It is more logically consistent with RFG being murdered and tossed down a mineshaft in a nonexistent town. It is stronger that RFG being murdered because of a case that he wasn't prosecuting or investigating.

 

[lpshred]

I definitely concur that foul play is possible and certainly not fantasy. However, walkaway is more likely in my opinion. This is not based on what I believe RG might have been thinking at the time, but more on the facts as I see them. Also, to the points that you mention (relaxation, no alarm clock, travel - perhaps without his girlfriend) might give a person cause to walk away.

But he could have done all of that without disappearing when he retired in 8 months! Having a pension, savings, and not worrying about being found make a relaxing retirement much easier. He and PF weren't married and he didn't need anything from her, so if he wanted out, he could just go. Not to mention no one indicated they were anything less than happy together. He could have moved to rural Montana with all of his assets and desired contacts in place. No need for all of the disappearance drama.

I've yet to see any convincing reason why disappearing and all of the difficulties associated with it was any better than just retiring in 8 months. The only convincing reasons for walkway (some sort of danger) are just as valid a reason for foul play.