PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[Trackergd]

PA. does have a Bureau of criminal investigation...a state agency. It doesn't matter which agency it originates from it is a state investigative resource.
Most if not all states have them.

In this case it originates from two different state agencies that I would assume run parallel investigations if they are looking at the same case.

Since the PSP is now tasked with the case, it is their criminal investigations unit that is looking at the case with the assistance of the other resource divisions.

Unless J.J. has something else, I was not able to find anything involving the State Attorney Generals office criminal investigations bureau with regard to this case. It is possible I may have missed something in my search.

I agree that most states have them. PA is just a little unusual in how it's structured. And since we are discussing how unusual, PA is constitutionally a "Commonwealth"rather than a "State" as are Kentucky, Massachusetts and Virginia.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit:

Unless J.J. has something else, I was not able to find anything involving the State Attorney Generals office criminal investigations bureau with regard to this case. It is possible I may have missed something in my search.

The PA OAG does have a division that does criminal investigation. I posted a link to it on the last page. Anthony Sassano, from the Sandusky case, is one example.

I agree that most states have them. PA is just a little unusual in how it's structured. And since we are discussing how unusual, PA is constitutionally a "Commonwealth"rather than a "State" as are Kentucky, Massachusetts and Virginia.

It is the official designation, but it has been ruled to be a difference without a distinction.

Many localities, cities, boroughs and townships, do have their own police, with full powers. PA also has elected constables (at the municipal or ward level) that are considered LE officers with full powers; they were abolished in Phila. Sheriffs, and their deputies, are not considered LE officers and can only make citizens' arrests. The sheriff is elected at the county level, and Phila has one.

 

[MissJ]

I am not asking at this point about notes.

The possibility being submitted is that RFG was either going to Lewisburg to meet with someone from one of these agencies (PSP or PA OAG), clandestinely, or that he was going to Lewisburg at the request of these other agencies to meet someone (that would be the "undercover" aspect), is that a fair summary?

No as I said before he may have been asked to meet with someone from another agency...I did not say clandestine. I just think his purpose that day was a meeting with someone....and he made no notes that we know of unless they were on that destroyed piece of equipment. JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No as I said before he may have been asked to meet with someone from another agency...I did not say clandestine. I just think his purpose that day was a meeting with someone....and he made no notes that we know of unless they were on that destroyed piece of equipment. JMO.

By "clandestinely" I mean not telling anyone.

Okay, if there was a meeting with anyone in those agencies, that agency would have a record. That agency would be the lead agency.

A "meeting" could be with someone to give him a car that he used to leave voluntarily. It could be meeting a lover.

 

[MissJ]

Well we don't know if anyone has such a record or not. He may have been meeting someone for any number of reasons. JMO but someone out there knows something about RFG they are not telling. I'd believe any numbers of reasons that RFG is not around anymore but cold blooded walkaway. Witness protection, homicide or suicide. To me, and it's JMO that a loving father would not give up seeing his daughter get married and have children just to walk away into the sunset. Suicide if life is intolerable, yes.

 

[Trackergd]

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. ~ Arthur Conan Doyle

I have to re-read the above quote once in a while to remind myself that on occasion, the truth is much stranger than fiction, and has been on most of the cases I have been involved with.

 

[MissJ]

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. ~ Arthur Conan Doyle

I have to re-read the above quote once in a while to remind myself that on occasion, the truth is much stranger than fiction, and has been on most of the cases I have been involved with.

I meant to ask you how do most cases turn out (that you have been involved in)? Just a ballpark estimate, if you can. My experiences are much different than yours but you are very hands on in your work.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well we don't know if anyone has such a record or not. He may have been meeting someone for any number of reasons. JMO but someone out there knows something about RFG they are not telling. I'd believe any numbers of reasons that RFG is not around anymore but cold blooded walkaway. Witness protection, homicide or suicide. To me, and it's JMO that a loving father would not give up seeing his daughter get married and have children just to walk away into the sunset. Suicide if life is intolerable, yes.

Yes we do know. The Sandusky case was investigated by the PSP and the PA OAG. An analysis of that investigation, an "investigation of the investigation," was conducted and published. There are records of who investigators talked to and when. So, if someone from one of these offices was meeting with RFG on 4/15/05, there would be a record.

We can rule out the Witness Security Program for several reasons. First, it would be foolish for the WSP not to indicate that this is what happened because of all of the publicity; they surely would not RFG face to appear on numerous television shows, newspapers and on the Internet (see my signature). Second, they inform one family member, so there would be no declaration of death. Third, the person in WSP can take his money with him. Fourth, RFG would have been a witness in the Sandusky trial; if he were out there, it could create a mistrial if the prosecution did not produce him.

I object to the characterization that walking away is "cold blooded." If this is the explanation for RFG's disappearance, there are obvious financial reasons to do that, just like there are financial reasons for RFG to commit suicide. His heirs receive more money in either case. There could be additional financial reasons.

 

[Trackergd]

I meant to ask you how do most cases turn out (that you have been involved in)? Just a ballpark estimate, if you can. My experiences are much different than yours but you are very hands on in your work.

My experience only:

Most of the child abduction cases do not end well. Either found deceased or the case goes cold 90% of the time. Lost children with mental issues tend to fare better in outdoor SAR situations that normal kids as they tend not to travel far and stay put when they stop.

The adult cases tend to run suicide and walkaway. Homicide is a low percentage. Of the walkaway's, they tend to be split between mental issues, death by misadventure or starting a new life. Of those, it tends to run money, sick of current life and/or job and found a new love.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wanted to post this again: http://www.scribd.com/doc/230973065/Report-on-Jerry-Sandusky-Investigation

This is the "Moulton Report," the investigation into the investigation of Jerry Sandusky and the administrators at Penn State. The Sandusky investigation was conducted by the PA OAG and the PSP (after it was referred from the Centre County DA's Office in 2009).

It does who how they conduct business.

There are several questions.

First, there is the idea that RFG would go to Lewisburg to meet an LE investigator.

First, why would RFG need to go 50 miles with any person from either agency. It would not be unusual for someone from the PSP or an investigator from the PA OAG coming into the DA's Office. There has been some coordination. Second, the local Deputy PA AG was Madeira, who was running for DA (and won). RFG was supporting him, and the two were friends. RFG actually was a dinner guest at his home at one point. If they felt that a cover was needed, they could have come up with something much better.

I do not see any realistic reason why LE would want to arrange a meeting 50 miles away, to meet with RFG.

Second, would be the idea that RFG would go to Lewisburg at the request of LE to meet with someone, possibly as part of a sting. Someone could have offered him a bribe, and he reported it. LE would want to catch the person offering the bribe in the act.

Okay, that could be a possibility, but he would, obviously, tell LE that he was going down there so they could catch the briber in the act. He would be communitating with them. They would have a record and if RFG didn't show up after that meeting, LE would have a prime suspect. The agency (PA OAG with the PSP) would be that agency.

 

[MissJ]

Yes we do know. The Sandusky case was investigated by the PSP and the PA OAG. An analysis of that investigation, an "investigation of the investigation," was conducted and published. There are records of who investigators talked to and when. So, if someone from one of these offices was meeting with RFG on 4/15/05, there would be a record.

We can rule out the Witness Security Program for several reasons. First, it would be foolish for the WSP not to indicate that this is what happened because of all of the publicity; they surely would not RFG face to appear on numerous television shows, newspapers and on the Internet (see my signature). Second, they inform one family member, so there would be no declaration of death. Third, the person in WSP can take his money with him. Fourth, RFG would have been a witness in the Sandusky trial; if he were out there, it could create a mistrial if the prosecution did not produce him.

I object to the characterization that walking away is "cold blooded." If this is the explanation for RFG's disappearance, there are obvious financial reasons to do that, just like there are financial reasons for RFG to commit suicide. His heirs receive more money in either case. There could be additional financial reasons.

So are you saying that you know everything about this case (RFG's not Sandusky) that any LE knows? You can certainly have the opinion that there are financial reasons to walk away or to kill ones self. I can see that suicide is an option for someone who wants the hurting to stop. I get that. RFG might have been going through that. It is my opinion that it is cold to walk away from your family (and cause them grief) so they can have your money. RFG could have just deposited his retirement check in his and his daughter's bank account and let her use all she wanted. I haven't seriously thought witness protection for a long long time in this case. JMO nothing much has been ruled out here.

 

[MissJ]

My experience only:

Most of the child abduction cases do not end well. Either found deceased or the case goes cold 90% of the time. Lost children with mental issues tend to fare better in outdoor SAR situations that normal kids as they tend not to travel far and stay put when they stop.

The adult cases tend to run suicide and walkaway. Homicide is a low percentage. Of the walkaway's, they tend to be split between mental issues, death by misadventure or starting a new life. Of those, it tends to run money, sick of current life and/or job and found a new love.

Well that certainly makes sense to me. what percentage are suicide and what walkaway would you say? IF RFG had a big nest egg some where I could see it, maybe. Or a woman even.

 

[MissJ]

By the way I don't think RFG's disappearance is necessarily connected to Sandusky. JMO

 

[MissJ]

My experience only:

Most of the child abduction cases do not end well. Either found deceased or the case goes cold 90% of the time. Lost children with mental issues tend to fare better in outdoor SAR situations that normal kids as they tend not to travel far and stay put when they stop.

The adult cases tend to run suicide and walkaway. Homicide is a low percentage. Of the walkaway's, they tend to be split between mental issues, death by misadventure or starting a new life. Of those, it tends to run money, sick of current life and/or job and found a new love.

OT a moment but did you follow the McStay case?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So are you saying that you know everything about this case (RFG's not Sandusky) that any LE knows? You can certainly have the opinion that there are financial reasons to walk away or to kill ones self. I can see that suicide is an option for someone who wants the hurting to stop. I get that. RFG might have been going through that. It is my opinion that it is cold to walk away from your family (and cause them grief) so they can have your money. RFG could have just deposited his retirement check in his and his daughter's bank account and let her use all she wanted. I haven't seriously thought witness protection for a long long time in this case. JMO nothing much has been ruled out here.

No, I am saying that LE would be handling this very differently if this was WSP.

No, RFG could not have just deposited check. We are talking about substantially more money by being dead prior to retirement.

 

[BigCat]

Well we don't know if anyone has such a record or not. He may have been meeting someone for any number of reasons. JMO but someone out there knows something about RFG they are not telling. I'd believe any numbers of reasons that RFG is not around anymore but cold blooded walkaway. Witness protection, homicide or suicide. To me, and it's JMO that a loving father would not give up seeing his daughter get married and have children just to walk away into the sunset. Suicide if life is intolerable, yes.

A daughter's perspective of what constitutes a loving father might be different than a father's. Shakespeare, the father of two daughters, wrote his masterpiece, King Lear, specifically about how a father can be driven mad over his love for his daughters. A man is particularly vulnerable during pending retirement because he's experiencing feelings of insecurity, neediness, and worthlessness. Do the women in his life really love him? As the Beatles once asked, "will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?"

As it relates to RFG, he was twice divorced from professional women. How did that affect him? Was his experience with marriage the reason why he didn't marry his long-time, live-in girlfriend (who, interestingly, was a clerk in his office when he met her)?

We don't know is my point. Love is complex, as much about neediness as it is about self-sacrifice, and completely irrational, so I would not say that RFG was not a loving father if he walked away for some reason. Quite a few men believe being a "loving father" means to provide for their children and never to be a burden to them. if RFG did walk away, his actions could be consistent with that belief.

I would also disagree with the calling his possible walk away "cold blooded". Yes, he may have planned his departure methodically; however, there is substantial evidence that he was troubled before his disappearance, which could mean that he agonized over his decision.

JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

By the way I don't think RFG's disappearance is necessarily connected to Sandusky. JMO

I use the Sandusky investigation only to illustrate how PA OAG and the PSP conduct these investigations.

I would not rule out a Sandusky connection either for voluntary departure or foul play. 1998 looms large.

 

[MissJ]

A daughter's perspective of what constitutes a loving father might be different than a father's. Shakespeare, the father of two daughters, wrote his masterpiece, King Lear, specifically about how a father can be driven mad over his love for his daughters. A man is particularly vulnerable during pending retirement because he's experiencing feelings of insecurity, neediness, and worthlessness. Do the women in his life really love him? As the Beatles once asked, "will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?"

As it relates to RFG, he was twice divorced from professional women. How did that affect him? Was his experience with marriage the reason why he didn't marry his long-time, live-in girlfriend (who, interestingly, was a clerk in his office when he met her)?

We don't know is my point. Love is complex, as much about neediness as it is about self-sacrifice, and completely irrational, so I would not say that RFG was not a loving father if he walked away for some reason. Quite a few men believe being a "loving father" means to provide for their children and never to be a burden to them. if RFG did walk away, his actions could be consistent with that belief.

I would also disagree with the calling his possible walk away "cold blooded". Yes, he may have planned his departure methodically; however, there is substantial evidence that he was troubled before his disappearance, which could mean that he agonized over his decision.

JMO

I suppose that you may be correct. My father is gone and left me money. He died and I'd give it all back just to have him with me. If my Dad walked away I wouldn't like him very much money or no. And I'd think he was cold blooded.

 

[MissJ]

I use the Sandusky investigation only to illustrate how PA OAG and the PSP conduct these investigations.

I would not rule out a Sandusky connection either for voluntary departure or foul play. 1998 looms large.

I don't rule it out either but I haven't ruled out much of anything.

 

[MissJ]

No, I am saying that LE would be handling this very differently if this was WSP.

No, RFG could not have just deposited check. We are talking about substantially more money by being dead prior to retirement.

How much? My defined pension plan doesn't make any difference if I die now or twenty years from now. My beneficiary gets the same amount. Not saying his is the same though.