PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[MissJ]

We are back to what made him leave...no shrew wife and wayward children. So why go and live in poverty without one's pension. Sorry
I don't see him as this altruistic person who did it so his daughter could have his pension. She wasn't disabled and could earn her own way.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why would he leave a pension for that? He could have taken the pension with him.

1. His heirs get his pension, all of it, and that would be substantial.

2. You have to register your address for your pension and, without a court order, it is a matter of public record.

 

[MissJ]

1. His heirs get his pension, all of it, and that would be substantial.

2. You have to register your address for your pension and, without a court order, it is a matter of public record.

But why would he CARE about giving his address? Did he think PEF would stalk him to a foreign country? WHAT was he running from?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

But why would he CARE about giving his address? Did he think PEF would stalk him to a foreign country? WHAT was he running from?

Public record is public. It would be PEF, but someone who could be targeting him, which was the point that you raised.

 

[MissJ]

Public record is public. It would be PEF, but someone who could be targeting him, which was the point that you raised.

Yes I did in relation to homicide. Not as a reason for him to leave the country. I could believe walk away but there had to be a reason.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes I did in relation to homicide. Not as a reason for him to leave the country. I could believe walk away but there had to be a reason.

It would be a reason not to collect his pension, one of several.

 

[MissJ]

It would be a reason not to collect his pension, one of several.

I don't see that as a reason. Consequence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't see that as a reason. Consequence.

If RFG collected it, he would have reveal his address, and that would be a matter of public record. A hypothetical killer could figure out where he is via checking that.

 

[MissJ]

If RFG collected it, he would have reveal his address, and that would be a matter of public record. A hypothetical killer could figure out where he is via checking that.

I don't think RFG was running scared from a killer.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This point was made:

So RFG could have hidden a considerable sum and been saving for years in anticipation? One thing that has always concerned me though is that in my experience of working around criminals some of them will want to kill you. Sounds too simplistic I'm sure but it happens. I was threatened so often I quit telling anyone and brushed it off as part of the job. What if RFG did that?

Now, I would doubt that it was a realistic fear, but, in theory, RFG could have been worried that there was a hypothetical someone from his past that could come back and kill him.

 

[SeekingJana]

I highly doubt the DA of Kaufman County, Texas and one of his top Assistant DA's lived in fear for their lives either. Both the DA and the ADA were not that far from retirement age, having had long careers. But- they were gunned down in cold blood, one in the court house stairwell/ parking area, and the DA AND his wife inside their own homes on a quiet warm weekend evening as they returned from an outing.

I'm telling you- it's more of a risky job than we've likely ever had, and I imagine there are psychological dark places after 20+ years served putting really bad people in prison.
The ADA in TX had been threatened. He was carrying concealed. He was taking alternate routes, he was being cautious and also trying to find out who was behind the threats.

The Kaufman Co. Sheriff's office decided the DA and staff were being threatened by a white supremacy group out in CO or somewhere distant, that they were SAFE.. Just crackpots stirring up trouble from far away.
They didn't get armed escorts.The DA had asked for 24 hour armed guards and failed to get them because of the statements coming out of CO about the hate group, that they weren't on the move, weren't killers, etc. Then the ADA was killed as he was leaving the court house.. And the sheriff went on TV and strutted out a bunch of deputies and said " We don't let things like this happen to OUR men in Kaufman County. I'll get the white supremacist or die trying".
Luckily for him, personally, the psycho who killed the ADA went straight to the DA's house, knocked on the door, was invited in, and shot the DA and his wife in the head. At point blank range.
The killer never bothered the Sheriff's Dept. because he wasn't MAD at the Sheriff.
He was MAD at the DA and his staff.. The dude had been an appointed low level local judge and he was fired for a minor theft.. He murdered 3 people and his wife was also in on the killings.

Think about it. The victims knew this man, he was one of them, they had been in court with him. They didn't fire him personally, and the incident had happened more than a year before.
I'm relatively sure they still considered him to be a friend...
The truth is, we really don't know who might have threatened Ray, or what type of protection he might have asked for and failed to get either.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

An incident like Kauffman is still rather rare. We don't have a case in PA like it in more than a century.

 

[BigCat]

I went to the Kaufman County Murder thread on Websleuths and found one of my posts from 4 days after the murders:

It didn't take much sleuthing to figure out who this guy is. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to link anything here since he has not been publicly identified yet, so I won't post.

Let me say, however, it wouldn't surprise me if these murders were related to local corruption in Kaufman, TX and not to the Aryan Brotherhood or Mexican drug cartels.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...elland-wife-found-slain&p=9154390#post9154390

I had found a website that detailed some of the corruption in Kaufman County and named the DA's killer, Eric Williams, before he was arrested. (Williams was arrested two weeks later). It was pretty clear who killed the Kaufman County DA.

In the case of RFG, however, it's been over nine years since he's disappeared and there's nothing that points to foul play: no body, no crime scene, no motive, no suspect. No one seems willing to offer possible theories beyond "he could have been a victim of foul play." Sure, he could have been a victim of foul play. He also could have fallen, accidently, into the river when he was disposing of his hard drive. It just isn't very likely.

I'm not completely dismissing foul play. In fact, I would like to see more discussion on foul play, more theories, with possible suspects and motives. I want to keep an open mind but I need something to work with.

 

[Trackergd]

I may be 100% wrong, but with any scenario on the table right now, the computer plays a part. So what was on it was important to either RFG or to someone else.
a. Information about the hypothetical missing money - where it is and how much.
b. Escape Plans - itinerary, contacts, etc.
c. Information about one or more cases.
d. Something illegal
e. Something unethical
f. A combination of two or more of the above.

The average person does not go to so much trouble to solicit and online research that degree of information on how to destroy data on a hard drive. The hard drive was removed and destroyed per the game plan. The lap top was tossed because RFG was not going to return to Center County anyway...either by plan or misadventure. No reason to leave it in the Mini. Unlike the Mini, the plan was for it never to be found and/or tied to RFG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I may be 100% wrong, but with any scenario on the table right now, the computer plays a part. So what was on it was important to either RFG or to someone else.
a. Information about the hypothetical missing money - where it is and how much.
b. Escape Plans - itinerary, contacts, etc.
c. Information about one or more cases.
d. Something illegal
e. Something unethical
f. A combination of two or more of the above.

The average person does not go to so much trouble to solicit and online research that degree of information on how to destroy data on a hard drive. The hard drive was removed and destroyed per the game plan. The lap top was tossed because RFG was not going to return to Center County anyway...either by plan or misadventure. No reason to leave it in the Mini. Unlike the Mini, the plan was for it never to be found and/or tied to RFG.

I would add two other possibilities:

g. Something intensely private.
h. Something embarrassing, but quite legal and ethical.

For g., assume something like information on the birth parents of his daughter, or medical information on his brother.

For h., maybe they were into photography or taped themselves having sex. A lot of couples do that and don't want it spread all over the Internet.

Even if he was planning to walk away, he may not have wanted that to have these things laying around.

 

[SeekingJana]

I went to the Kaufman County Murder thread on Websleuths and found one of my posts from 4 days after the murders:



I had found a website that detailed some of the corruption in Kaufman County and named the DA's killer, Eric Williams, before he was arrested. (Williams was arrested two weeks later). It was pretty clear who killed the Kaufman County DA.

In the case of RFG, however, it's been over nine years since he's disappeared and there's nothing that points to foul play: no body, no crime scene, no motive, no suspect. No one seems willing to offer possible theories beyond "he could have been a victim of foul play." Sure, he could have been a victim of foul play. He also could have fallen, accidently, into the river when he was disposing of his hard drive. It just isn't very likely.

I'm not completely dismissing foul play. In fact, I would like to see more discussion on foul play, more theories, with possible suspects and motives. I want to keep an open mind but I need something to work with.

No, I'm not pushing foul play here. I'm saying that maybe Ray was threatened, and with maybe the financial incentive to go where his savings resided, he moved because of more than one factor. Usually, we only look at one thing.
Lots of major life decisions are made because of the weight of more than one thing.
Unlike the DA and ADA in Kaufman Co., Ray may not have told a soul about any vague threats. He'd been in office a long time and maybe he was just tired of doing what was right but looking over his shoulder.. AND there was the money in a foreign bank.
Two circumstances could have come together in such a way that they pushed him to make his move when he did... not after retirement.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit:

Lots of major life decisions are made because of the weight of more than one thing.
Unlike the DA and ADA in Kaufman Co., Ray may not have told a soul about any vague threats. He'd been in office a long time and maybe he was just tired of doing what was right but looking over his shoulder.. AND there was the money in a foreign bank.
Two circumstances could have come together in such a way that they pushed him to make his move when he did... not after retirement.

I think it could be more than two factors.

I look at a hypothetical threat through my own experience (and Miss J may want to chime in). 20 years ago, I was a welfare case worker. Could, hypothetically, someone out there whose benefits I closed out in 1994 be really mad at me still and want to kill me? Sure. Is it likely? No. Do I lose any sleep over it? No. I don't think RFG would be, but I will concede the possibility.

There are a number of potential motives for voluntary departure, together and in combination.

 

[BigCat]

No, I'm not pushing foul play here. I'm saying that maybe Ray was threatened, and with maybe the financial incentive to go where his savings resided, he moved because of more than one factor. Usually, we only look at one thing.
Lots of major life decisions are made because of the weight of more than one thing.
Unlike the DA and ADA in Kaufman Co., Ray may not have told a soul about any vague threats. He'd been in office a long time and maybe he was just tired of doing what was right but looking over his shoulder.. AND there was the money in a foreign bank.
Two circumstances could have come together in such a way that they pushed him to make his move when he did... not after retirement.

Yes, I agree. It's possible. It can't be ruled out. That's what makes this case so fascinating. There are many possible, even if they are not likely, scenarios to why and how RFG's disappeared. Just for comparison: I stopped checking the Kaufman Co DA thread just a couple of days after my first post. All the mystery was gone.

This thread, however, I just keep coming back for more. If this thread were movie, it would belong to the Criterian Collection. I'm talking about those kind of movies that don't have an ending that wraps everything up all nice and tidy. They make us think. :thinking:

 

[MissJ]

I may be 100% wrong, but with any scenario on the table right now, the computer plays a part. So what was on it was important to either RFG or to someone else.
a. Information about the hypothetical missing money - where it is and how much.
b. Escape Plans - itinerary, contacts, etc.
c. Information about one or more cases.
d. Something illegal
e. Something unethical
f. A combination of two or more of the above.

The average person does not go to so much trouble to solicit and online research that degree of information on how to destroy data on a hard drive. The hard drive was removed and destroyed per the game plan. The lap top was tossed because RFG was not going to return to Center County anyway...either by plan or misadventure. No reason to leave it in the Mini. Unlike the Mini, the plan was for it never to be found and/or tied to RFG.

I agree. There was something incriminating on the computer if RFG tossed it himself.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree. There was something incriminating on the computer if RFG tossed it himself.

Personally, I would not use the word "incriminating." It implies something criminal, and it might not have been.