PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[SuperSmith]

She described a silver or gold metallic vehicle (don't know how u can't tell them apart). PF had a green honda

 

[Trackergd]

Good post but my biggest problem with the Fenton sighting is if he truly intended to do a Houdini then he took a HUGE risk by returning to the courthouse albeit in a different vehicle. What would he have returned to the parking lot for?? Obviously he did not enter the building or he would've been caught on tape. So what was the draw to the parking lot?

I agree that it was a HUGE risk. I would think that if we were to look at the pool of "witnesses" who claim to have seen RG, Fenton would be the most credible. It would also suggest RG knew where the camera was and how to stay out of it's field of view. It begs the question of why he did not leave the car a block or two away and avoid the courthouse, unless...his "helper" was/is a coworker that he had to drop off.

 

[Trackergd]

She described a silver or gold metallic vehicle (don't know how u can't tell them apart). PF had a green honda

Yea, it's not like gold and silver are that close in daylight...

 

[SuperSmith]

Further confusing the Fenton sighting is the Judge she worked for (Grine I think and Gricars former boss) who corroborated Fentons account seeing Gricar at the same time. He however was unsure whether it was Friday or Saturday. This was not in the link posted but was in other stories.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Further confusing the Fenton sighting is the Judge she worked for (Grine I think and Gricars former boss) who corroborated Fentons account seeing Gricar at the same time. He however was unsure whether it was Friday or Saturday. This was not in the link posted but was in other stories.

That is correct and it was Judge David Grine (Joathan Grine's father).

One possibility is that Fenton had the wrong day. Grine thought it could have Friday 4/15 or Thursday 4/14.

 

[Trackergd]

Further confusing the Fenton sighting is the Judge she worked for (Grine I think and Gricars former boss) who corroborated Fentons account seeing Gricar at the same time. He however was unsure whether it was Friday or Saturday. This was not in the link posted but was in other stories.

Saturday would make things even more interesting. Perhaps RG did not expect to run into anyone who knew him on a Saturday?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Saturday would make things even more interesting. Perhaps RG did not expect to run into anyone who knew him on a Saturday?

Saturday would probably eliminate suicide, and eliminate all but one murder scenario.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Saturday would probably eliminate suicide, and eliminate all but one murder scenario.

yea a female

 

[SuperSmith]

Thursday would eliminate Raystown Lake

 

[SuperSmith]

JJ corrected me as it was reported by Grine either Thursday or Friday. Friday is more likely and Saturday it is unlikely that Fenton and Grine were working

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thursday would eliminate Raystown Lake

No, it would not. The time of the Raystown Lake sighting 10:30-11:00 AM on 4/14/05. The time of the Fenton sighting was around 3:00 PM. Grine wasn't sure if it 3:00 PM Thursday (4/14) or 3:00 PM Friday (4/15). There was more than enough time to get back to Bellefonte to be seen behind the Courthouse on 4/14 at 3:00 PM.

Based on the witnesses reported (and I will add known to me) I cannot rule that it was RFG on 4/14 or 4/15. I can say that, in spite of looking, there was enough time between the out of town sighting on either day for RFG to have returned to Bellefonte, and, on 4/15, to then have gone back to Lewisburg.

I can you that the security camera tape did not show RFG behind the Courthouse on 4/15.

 

[SuperSmith]

Gotta keep everyone looking in Lewisburg right?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Gotta keep everyone looking in Lewisburg right?

I really don't know how anyone could possibly think that from that post, I can't rule out that RFG was in Bellefonte at 3:00 PM on 4/15/05.

 

[Trackergd]

We keep bantering back and forth about the 14th and 15th. Is it possible that this event occurred over two days? That would make it even more curious as I would wonder where RG spent the night, and considering the amount of media attention and searching, an innkeeper would most likely have reported having RG as a guest.

What is the consensus here based on what we "think" we know, one day or two?

I am leaning toward two, but could be swayed back to one.

 

[Trackergd]

Respectfully snipped for space.

I can [tell] you that the security camera tape did not show RFG behind the Courthouse on 4/15.

To me, Fenton and Grine are as good as a security camera as they would not mistake someone else for RG. At this juncture there appears to be no reason to suspect they are fabricating the sighting.

Again as SuperSmith noted, it would be a Huge risk to go back to the courthouse if he was attempting to create an elaborate misinformation scenario. If he was alone in the car as was reported (as in there was no one laying on the floor with a gun pointed at him), this may reduce the murder scenario just a bit.

What would make RG go back to the courthouse in Bellefonte where he could be (and was) sighted?

 

[Trackergd]

Gotta keep everyone looking in Lewisburg right?

To me, RG could have gone missing from any point between Bellefonte and Lewisburg. I think there is evidence to support both, but I am not sure in what combination yet. It's a bit more complex that I first thought.

 

[SuperSmith]

My gut tells me that whatever the scenario it was over for RG on Friday. Tracker, interesting you mention RG at gunpoint in the other car. It was an early theory of mine that someone forced RG in the Metallic colored car, made him drive it back to Bellefonte, where he was killed. Coincidentally a former perp that RG had run ins with committed suicide that very day (15th). Billy Jo Leathers I believe. Timeline matches up but LE say otherwise.

 

[Trackergd]

My gut tells me that whatever the scenario it was over for RG on Friday. Tracker, interesting you mention RG at gunpoint in the other car. It was an early theory of mine that someone forced RG in the Metallic colored car, made him drive it back to Bellefonte, where he was killed. Coincidentally a former perp that RG had run ins with committed suicide that very day (15th). Billy Jo Leathers I believe. Timeline matches up but LE say otherwise.

Interesting. Any report of what type of vehicles this individual owned? Without any detail, what does this individuals rap sheet look like as far as a yes or no for armed assaults or attempted murder?

If we end up liking an actor for this at some point, it could limit a potential search area for remains using the time and distance method.

 

[Trackergd]

BJL is listed with a date of death of 4-17-2005 in the Centre Daily Times. Charged with attempted murder in a domestic violence case. Was not convicted of the attempted murder. His car was found on South Eagle Valley Road. No description of the car that I could see. He is listed in MSM so I feel more comfortable in discussing him.

RFG had also busted a drug ring and a number of individuals were charged.

 

[Trackergd]

The "Rivers Edge" chapter of the Serial Killer's Apprentice is an interesting read as it applies to this case.