PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[Sutton]

It occurred to me that I should read readily available articles, blog posts, and forum comments on Ray Gricar's disappearance before deciding upon a likely explanation or posting ideas that have comprehensively discussed (but I'm sure I'll do that, regardless).
This was a wretched notion. I am now lost on cases I've followed for months, and am neglecting other things as well!
Here is what I've done so far:
Halfway through WS thread 6
Halfway through JJinPhila's Sporadic Comments blogposts on Centre Daily Times (1)
Completed Gricar related blogs by Slamdunks (2)
Completed J. Karen Arnold's website (3)
Completed, WS poster, txsleuth's website (4)
Competed FBI document (background/clearance check) on Ray (5)
Read Bill Keisling's Gricar articles at yardbird.com (6)
Completed the chapter in Jeremy Renner's book, the Serial Killer's Apprentice
Watched Disappeared, A Haunting, Greta, Nancy (in the past, but I will try to locate and re-watch)
Clicked on and read every link I've come across in the process
Plan to look at the Collegian Archive, but it isn't phone friendly, and I always forget when I'm on a laptop. (7)
Plan to read the Unexplained Mysteries board started after the Court TV boards shut down, lots of unrelated posts, though. (8)
Many links no longer work, especially from Centre Daily Times (tried to sign up for online subscription, but it would not work correctly, so I moved on). I cannot locate frequently referenced blogposts by Pete Bosak (idk if JJ took over, or if this is totally separate blog).
Questions:
1. Is there any major source I'm missing?
2. Is content from the Court TV message boards available? (searched quickly on Wayback, but could not access them, may be my error)
3. Is there different info at NewspaperArchives.com that would be worth getting a subscription? A
Sorry for the l-o-n-g post. I want to list what I've read and hope someone can point me in a different direction if necessary. Also want to give links that are still active and contain lots of info for current WS posters.
Here are links to what I've mentioned (not to the articles, though, too many). Hope all of these are okay to post here...if not, I think they'll just show up as asterisks:
(1) http://www.centredaily.com/694/index-p2.html
(2) http://theslamdunktrove.blogspot.com/search/label/Ray Gricar?m=1
(3) https://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/
(4) https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/home
(5) http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/262175443
(6) http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_2.htm
(7) http://digitalnewspapers.libraries....asp?skin=collegian&AW=1431466654118&AppName=2
(8) http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=254389&st=0

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BP had a separate blog, and a lot of mine are available via Wayback only.

The Harrisburg Patriot News became a major website after the Sandusky disclosure. I think it is fair to say it has eclipsed the CDT.

http://www.pennlive.com/#/0

State College.Com is also giving good coverage: http://www.statecollege.com/

So far as I know, the Court TV message board is unavailable.

Some of the CDT archives are quite good, when looking for details.

There was old Q and A forum on the CDT site as well, which is in some archives. http://web.archive.org/web/20051215...ews/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

 

[Sutton]

BP had a separate blog, and a lot of mine are available via Wayback only.

I will try to search for yours via Wayback. They were originally on Centre Times?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I will try to search for yours via Wayback. They were originally on Centre Times?

Yes. The blog ended in September. BP's ran from September/October 2008 until February or March of 2009. His was called "Just Gricar." He also had a prior blog that was general in nature.

 

[SuperSmith]

CourtTV stuff is completely gone unfortunately. It is no secret I started the Unexplained thread on Gricar after the TruTv closed us down without much warning. Although there may be some unrelated posts on Unexplained site I highly recommend as it has posters who are very close to the investigation and a few have been around since day one. JJ can't even lay claim to that. For a good reference point here is a link with some good info and this individual also posts with us there.

https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/home

 

[Sutton]

CourtTV stuff is completely gone unfortunately. It is no secret I started the Unexplained thread on Gricar after the TruTv closed us down without much warning. Although there may be some unrelated posts on Unexplained site I highly recommend as it has posters who are very close to the investigation and a few have been around since day one. JJ can't even lay claim to that. For a good reference point here is a link with some good info and this individual also posts with us there.

https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/home

Oh, I guess it was just a secret from me Maybe just the page I clicked on that had some unrelated posts. Regardless, I am looking forward to reading through the thread.
I have read the sites.google.com/site/raygricar website. It is organized & easy to navigate. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[SuperSmith]

Did anyone know that Patty and Ray were engaged to be married?

 

[SuperSmith]

So I've been working on a possible theory as to why Gricars money appeared to be on the low end.

With the amount money Ray and his ex-wife were making I have to assume they had to pay for Lara's education out of pocket. That's a lot of money even IF it was a shared cost.

Also in 2001 Lara had a bad snowboarding accident. There is no indication whether she had insurance and hospital bills are outrageous even if shared.

Also Lara was into horses which is an expensive hobby as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So I've been working on a possible theory as to why Gricars money appeared to be on the low end.

With the amount money Ray and his ex-wife were making I have to assume they had to pay for Lara's education out of pocket. That's a lot of money even IF it was a shared cost.

Also in 2001 Lara had a bad snowboarding accident. There is no indication whether she had insurance and hospital bills are outrageous even if shared.

Also Lara was into horses which is an expensive hobby as well.

You have include Barbara Gray in that equation, and when you do, the money remains too low.

 

[SuperSmith]

I did account for that as indicated in my post. The problem is we don't know what ratio they shared of the costs. Gray may not have paid much of anything.

The money being low is your opinion that is not shared by LE

 

[Trackergd]

Did anyone know that Patty and Ray were engaged to be married?

No, I was not aware of that. Of course that could work two ways depending on what scenario one favors. Thanks!

 

[Trackergd]

So I've been working on a possible theory as to why Gricars money appeared to be on the low end.

With the amount money Ray and his ex-wife were making I have to assume they had to pay for Lara's education out of pocket. That's a lot of money even IF it was a shared cost.

Also in 2001 Lara had a bad snowboarding accident. There is no indication whether she had insurance and hospital bills are outrageous even if shared.

Also Lara was into horses which is an expensive hobby as well.

Thank you for that information. I will add this to the information the accountant is working with. I have seen lower income folks go broke trying to maintain one or more horses for a daughter. One would be amazed at the amount of hay, straw and feed theft that goes on in boarding stables.

 

[Trackergd]

I did account for that as indicated in my post. The problem is we don't know what ratio they shared of the costs. Gray may not have paid much of anything.

The money being low is your opinion that is not shared by LE

I honestly don't know what the money means. I just add anything that you or others come up with about where the money "could" have gone in the hopes that either it all adds up or we spot a glaring hole for something like extortion or where ever it leads us.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did account for that as indicated in my post. The problem is we don't know what ratio they shared of the costs. Gray may not have paid much of anything.

The money being low is your opinion that is not shared by LE

LE never did a forensic audit.

Looking at just average salaries of professors, she would be making more that RFG in any given year. She was making enough that, as an entry level position, they could live on her salary alone.

She also did outside consulting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did anyone know that Patty and Ray were engaged to be married?

I'm not sure that this is accurate. DZ called PEF his "fiancee" but he might have referring to something he thought would occur in distant future.

 

[SuperSmith]

Well if DZ referred to PF as Rays fiancé then that makes two. Rays and then Lara's family attorney (Goodall) was quoted as to Patty being Rays fiancé in the 10th year edition of PennLive. Thank you for telling me about DZ that adds more support of my post.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/04/ten_years_later_ray_gricars_di.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, that is interesting. I have never heard her described as such. I wonder if that has something to do with the estate.

 

[wijg]

JJ... you mentioned few pages back that the Fenton sighting could have been mistaken as being on the 14th. She mentioned that she left early after a trial ended.

"I thought, 'Well, even the district attorney is taking the rest of the day off, so I don't feel so bad now,' " Fenton said.

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html#storylink=cpy

If she thought that to herself, it's very clear she believed 100% that it was him. Also, anyone who has ever worked anywhere knows that skipping out early on a Friday is much more likely than skipping out on a Thursday, so I'm inclined to believe her story.

I don't think you've ever stated before that security footage ruled this out. You've generally just said LE dismissed it because it didn't meet the timeline. That's the first I've heard of security footage. Do you have a link to a source?

Also, someone with access to PA courts database (not sure if its free or if you have to pay) should check Judge Grine's docket on 4/15/2005, and see if he was presiding over a case that day. If he wasn't, then we can definitely rule out the Fenton sighting, as she alleges she went home from work early only AFTER a trial ended early.

 

[wijg]

Later in the article, it says:

Surveillance footage shows Fenton leaving the courthouse at the time she remembers, but cameras did not pan wide enough to catch the car she said was driven by Gricar.

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html#storylink=cpy

That's not even close to being able to rule out Fenton's sighting. In fact, it may only corroborate it, if she can pinpoint where the car was without knowledge of the scope of the view of the security footage.

 

[wijg]

For those curious, here was JJ's exact quote from page 9 of this thread: "When RFG or the car did not appear on the tape, it was discounted by the BPD."

That is not true at all. The camera did not pan wide enough. It was discounted for the simple fact that it didn't fit their established timeline. A timeline that is part of a premise which may have to be completely revisited. Logic and reasoning dictate that contradictions of fact cannot exist. When they do, you must check your premise. I'm not the only one that believes that the Fenton sighting should have made LE revisit their entire premise. In my opinion, the most solid evidence we have are the cell phone records (which have been curiously inconsistent) and the Fenton sighting. Those are the only two things that would be admitted in a court of law (factual records and a highly credible eye witness account). Everything else - even the laptop - establish nothing. The laptop itself would have a hard time being admitted as evidence and would only probably be admitted inasmuch as it is another item of Ray's property ending up in the same town (the other being the Mini and the cell phone).