PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

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  • #161
If you needed to get rid of your own laptop how would you do it? I would be afraid to throw it in a river, as I don't think that is thorough enough. I would set it on fire, then put it in a public dumpster.
But if I needed to get rid of someone else's laptop quickly, I can see myself tossing it into a river. I wouldn't care if it was found or if the data was recoverable. I would just be trying to separate myself from the laptop.
Don't really know where I'm going with this...no theory as to Ray's disappearance. Just wondering if y'all have similar reasoning?
 
  • #162
If you needed to get rid of your own laptop how would you do it? I would be afraid to throw it in a river, as I don't think that is thorough enough. I would set it on fire, then put it in a public dumpster.
But if I needed to get rid of someone else's laptop quickly, I can see myself tossing it into a river. I wouldn't care if it was found or if the data was recoverable. I would just be trying to separate myself from the laptop.
Don't really know where I'm going with this...no theory as to Ray's disappearance. Just wondering if y'all have similar reasoning?


The drive was removed prior to each being tossed. How does that play into it.
 
  • #163
I like your reasoning. Gricar was smarter then throwing the laptop in the river, near the car, etc. good post
 
  • #164
I like your reasoning. Gricar was smarter then throwing the laptop in the river, near the car, etc. good post

Well, he would be counting on the drive being unreadable. He could pretty much count on that.
 
  • #165
Ask yourself why there was a need to toss the laptop at all if the hard drive was separated prior.

It would've been a better move on his part or on a killers part if the intention was to destroy data to just take the hard drive and leave the laptop in the closet.

As I keep saying I believe those two pieces are either a diversion, a stage prop, or were dipsosed of with haste after the crime was committed by the perp(s).
 
  • #166
RSBM

Ask yourself why there was a need to toss the laptop at all if the hard drive was separated prior.

I think that is answered for all scenarios. It would take additional time to find the drive. Nobody was looking for the laptop until it was discovered missing. No one was looking for the drive, which is much smaller, until the laptop was found. Removing the drive increased the chances that it would remain in the water longer.

It would've been a better move on his part or on a killers part if the intention was to destroy data to just take the hard drive and leave the laptop in the closet.

A presumed killer would need have access to the closet, and know where the laptop was. As noted a witness saw him with the laptop in Lewisburg.

A killer, if he wanted to destroy some data, has an immediate problem. How would he know that RFG didn't copy the data to another computer (he had access to two), have it saved to a removable device, stored online (there were Internet data storage sites at the time), or printed or some combination of these? RFG, however, knew what was on the laptop.
 
  • #167
I'm starting to believe that Gricar was either never in Lewisburg, or was only there briefly (perhaps to meet someone and get into a different vehicle, which is consistent with what the dogs smelled).

- The eyewitness accounts, in my opinion, are extremely unreliable. Ray Gricar was a very plain looking man. 6' tall, 172ish pounds. White, middle aged male. How many of those are in any given city or town in Pennsylvania? Did anyone ever describe what he was wearing?
- The laptop and hard drive appear to be staged. Even if Ray thought it was the best way to get rid of the information, why pick an area so close to where people walk, fish, and boat? It was inevitably going to be found. Why not ditch it in some remote pond or lake? Hell, why not put it in a bucket or cooler full of water in his basement for a few days, and then ditch it in a dumpster? If one was really worried about someone finding info on it to the point of purchasing data erasing software AND damaging it with water, they would likely also be worried about it ever being found. There was a lot of effort apparently put into wiping data, but none put it ensuring the machine itself wouldn't be found. A reasonable person could conclude that this was staged to make it appear he was in Lewisburg.
- I find the sighting near the courthouse (silver car I believe) much more credible since the eyewitness knew him. Like I mentioned, Ray was a very plain looking man. Those who knew him would be much more likely to distinguish him from every other plain looking middle-aged white 6' 172 pound male in PA.

I'm still sticking with my witness protection theory.
1. Ray meets with witness protection at a remote area around Raystown Lake the day before to plan things out. The decision is made Lewisburg the staging area, since nothing would seem odd to PF about him traveling there.
2. On the next day, Ray goes to great lengths to ensure the trail leads to Lewisburg, even telling PF what route he was taking, and waiting to call her until his signal would bounce off the cell towers on said route.
3A: When he gets to Lewisburg, he gets into a different vehicle and leaves. Meanwhile, a computer forensics guy, probably a smoker, gets in Ray's car, and fidgets around with Ray's laptop. He either clones the data to a different hard drive or writes it to a CD/DVD. Ray is already on the road to somewhere by the time the tech guy finishes cloning the data. The tech guy then dumps the computer and hard drive into the river as instructed.
3B: Ray gets into the other car and takes the laptop with him (it's evidence for whatever case the feds are building). A couple days later, it's reported that LE has realized that Ray's county issued laptop is gone. Witness protection guys decide to take the hard drive out, clone its data, and go back to Lewisburg at night and ditch it in the river. Or, they keep the actual hard drive, and throw an entirely different hard drive (same model as the one used in his laptop) into the river, in an area where it is certain to be found. The pieces are put in two different areas to increase their likelihood of one or both being found.
4. After he is transferred to the other car, he realizes there is something else important in his office that he needs. The Marshals drive him back to Centre County and retrieve whatever it is in his office while he waits in the car. It is at this point which he is spotted by an acquaintance. Then, he is gone, disappearing into the program.
5. Due to the unique nature of the case (a sitting DA going into witness protection), no family is informed, as it may put them in danger. Months or years later, when things have died down a little, Lara Gricar - and only Lara Gricar - is informed.
6. Whatever case he is working on has become a Pandora's Box. Every door opened leads to another. It has taken years to build a rock solid case. Whatever it is, it definitely deals with public corruption (the FBI office that specializes in public corruption cases is located in Detroit... this would explain the Southfield sighting). The Sandusky matter - whether it was directly related, or related inasmuch as it dealt with politically connected people involved in The Second Mile - further complicated things, as it threatened to kill the entire case Ray was helping build as those targeted by Ray's theoretical investigation began to change the way they were going about their business.
7. The Feds have gone to great lengths to push the idea of walk-away or homicide, to the point of planting disinformation on the web. JJ himself may actually be a federal agent, or doing their bidding as an independent contractor. Karen Arnold once noted JJ's extremely strong insistence on "walk away" was curious on her extended blog post about the entire Ray Gricar case.... I mean, it's probably 99% likely that JJ is not here to plant disinformation, but in my opinion it's as plausible a scenario as any. Because if I wanted to help someone disappear and ensure they would not be found, I would do the exact same thing.

I just try to go by what is plausible and which eyewitness and info is credible. To me, the eyewitnesses in Lewisburg are not credible at all. So I go by what is plausible - even if it is not likely - based on what information is credible. Ray was at Raystown Lake the day before. Ray called PF when he was already en route to Lewisburg, 15-20 minutes into his trip, and curiously told her what route he was taking (as if she needed to know). Ray parked in Lewisburg. His scent ends just feet away from his car, making it likely he entered a different car. He is spotted back in Centre County an hour or two later, in a different car. By an acquaintance. Perhaps the most credible eyewitness in the entire matter, yet it gets completely dismissed. I choose to believe it. Which changes everything, including the timeline. But if you subscribe tot he theory that Ray drove to Lewisburg, wasted no time at all, got in a different car and left, then it fits THAT timeline completely.
 
  • #168
Convenice and the low probability of discovery could have why RFG tossed the drive and laptop in those locations.

I''m definitely not a federal agent or contractor, but I'm open to offers. :)
 
  • #169
Wijg, amazing post!!!
 
  • #170
I know J.J. personally. While we do not always agree on every point, he is nothing short of dedicated to helping solve this case. We long ago came to the understanding that we can disagree and respect each others opinions. Frankly some of her comments were very inappropriate.
 
  • #171
The drive was removed prior to each being tossed. How does that play into it.

The drive being manually removed, combined with the internet queries for water damage to a laptop, point back to Ray being the person who tossed the laptop in the river. That's different than I would have done it, but within the realm of what a reasonable person might do to get rid of a laptop.
So what could have been on there that he wanted to hide? Something tying him to illegal activities (participation in or knowledge of), something indicating where he was going, something that might embarrass him, or just client info that he wanted to protect from public view.
Can any of these be ruled out?
 
  • #172
I know his daughter had Ray declared legally dead. But has she voiced her opinion on how or if this is truly what she believes? Has the gf voiced an opinion? I mean afterwards, not in the weeks following the disappearance.
How actively was he searched for? I mean, this case should have exhausted all resources, used many different agencies, there should have been a hardcore recovery effort. Was there?
 
  • #173
The drive being manually removed, combined with the internet queries for water damage to a laptop, point back to Ray being the person who tossed the laptop in the river. That's different than I would have done it, but within the realm of what a reasonable person might do to get rid of a laptop.
So what could have been on there that he wanted to hide? Something tying him to illegal activities (participation in or knowledge of), something indicating where he was going, something that might embarrass him, or just client info that he wanted to protect from public view.
Can any of these be ruled out?

What I am curious about is if anything was found on his desktop home computer that was questionable.
 
  • #174
SuperSmith, I am curious as to your opinion of the Fenton sighting of RG at the courthouse in Bellefonte about 3 p.m on the 15th?
 
  • #175
I had started to form a theory that RG drove to Lewisburg, possibly drove a little North of town to get a cup of coffee, wiped the hard drive with the window washer software, removed the drive, tossed the drive and software disc into the river from the bank, went back to the Mini, decided to toss the laptop as well (hard to explain how the drive was missing) knowing he had to return the laptop when he retired, walked onto the bridge and tossed the laptop (easier to explain how he had lost the entire computer and pay for it), returned to the lot and got into another car (lack of scent trail detection from tracking dog) and returned to Bellefonte where he was spotted by Fenton and went missing from that point. My problem with the scenario is the smell of smoke and ashes in the Mini. If he hated the smell of smoke as much as I, he would have objected to anyone leaning into the car while smoking. So in a way, SuperSmith may be correct in that he did not go missing from Lewisburg, but rather from Bellefonte. I also agree that while the laptop "may" be a "plant", it probably did contain something RG never wanted anyone to see. Seems to be a huge elaborate ruse to dispose of a laptop, and that is as big a mystery as what was on the computer drive. So if he went missing shortly after 3 PM on April 15th from Bellefonte, we are looking in the wrong place for RG.
 
  • #176
The drive being manually removed, combined with the internet queries for water damage to a laptop, point back to Ray being the person who tossed the laptop in the river. That's different than I would have done it, but within the realm of what a reasonable person might do to get rid of a laptop.
So what could have been on there that he wanted to hide? Something tying him to illegal activities (participation in or knowledge of), something indicating where he was going, something that might embarrass him, or just client info that he wanted to protect from public view.
Can any of these be ruled out?

About the only thing we could rule out is "client information." RFG didn't have any clients. It could be case related information, however.

There is also the possibility that he transferred everything on the laptop to his home desktop.
 
  • #177
I know his daughter had Ray declared legally dead. But has she voiced her opinion on how or if this is truly what she believes? Has the gf voiced an opinion? I mean afterwards, not in the weeks following the disappearance.
How actively was he searched for? I mean, this case should have exhausted all resources, used many different agencies, there should have been a hardcore recovery effort. Was there?

She testified in court that she thought he was dead.

In terms of the Susquehanna, there was possibly the most extensive search of that branch, certainly in the last ten years.
 
  • #178
Tracker, the Fenton sighting if accurate would blow up the Lewisburg portion of this case but I concede also if her sighting is accurate that seeing Ray driving an Unidentified vehicle that it points more to walkaway or witness protection. It would also point to him having a helper. Theory being you can't be in two places at once. Interesting in PennLives 10 year story that they have file photos of Pattys house and low and behold sits a silver metallic vehicle. What did Ray drive prior to the Mini being that the Mini was said to be a gift to her?
 
  • #179
Tracker, the Fenton sighting if accurate would blow up the Lewisburg portion of this case but I concede also if her sighting is accurate that seeing Ray driving an Unidentified vehicle that it points more to walkaway or witness protection. It would also point to him having a helper. Theory being you can't be in two places at once. Interesting in PennLives 10 year story that they have file photos of Pattys house and low and behold sits a silver metallic vehicle. What did Ray drive prior to the Mini being that the Mini was said to be a gift to her?

A slight variation is that RG drove to Center Hall and swapped vehicles with a helper, made the phone call and did "something" and returned to Bellefonte where was spotted by Fenton. I wonder how much the sightings of RG in Lewisburg were more a sighting of the Mini than of RG and the assumption it was RG.

Two variations of the same scenario.

As to the silver car parked at the house, I have to go back and see what kind of car Fenton saw RG in. If the picture was taken after RG went missing, it may be that PF got rid of the car as it held a bad memory and purchased the silver one.
 
  • #180
Good post but my biggest problem with the Fenton sighting is if he truly intended to do a Houdini then he took a HUGE risk by returning to the courthouse albeit in a different vehicle. What would he have returned to the parking lot for?? Obviously he did not enter the building or he would've been caught on tape. So what was the draw to the parking lot?
 
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