PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[Trackergd]

Hello fellow Websleuthers:

If you have been wondering where JJ is, he is currently in the hospital. However, he is OK and is recovering and he will be back soon to continue the discussion.

Thanks Snoop! I tried calling him as I was concerned about his absence.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

Yes, when he didn't respond to phone calls, many people were concerned. We had to do some sleuthing to find out his whereabouts. Thank goodness he is OK.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, in no more than 5 or 6 sentences (to keep it clear): Why are you SURE that RG closed the case before Lauro did the report? Links, please.

I have linked the conversation previously, and won't relink at the present time. According to Lauro, he made his decision not to prosecute Sandusky after the interview with Sandusky on 6/1/98. Schreffler reported to Sandusky that there would be no prosecution at the same meeting. Schreffler could only recommend charges to Gricar, so Gricar had to have made that decision prior to the 6/1/98 meeting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, in no more than 5 or 6 sentences (to keep it clear): Why are you SURE that RG closed the case before Lauro did the report? Links, please.

This isn't the summary, but it does give the links with quotes:


RFG made his decision sometime before the final interview with Sandusky on June 1, 1998. Lauro made his decision at or after that interview.

Schreffler testified that after that interview, he called RFG again and suggested charges.

His testimony is this:

Prosecutor (McGettegan, I think): Okay. Now, after this conversation [with Sandusky on 6/1/98] with this defendant, did you have further consultation with Ms. Arnold from the District Attorney's Office or Mr. Gricar?

A (Schreffler). Mr. Gricar.

Q. Okay. And were any charges lodged as a result of that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. At any point did you either draft a document or make a recommendation the
charges be lodged, if you recall?

A. I felt there should be some charges, something, but the DA didn't feel there should be.

P. 68, ll. 4-16. http://co.centre.pa.us/centreco/medi...1412_ JT.pdf

Also see pp. 63-4.

Now this is not Blehar saying it, it is Schreffler's testimony. I cannot tell you if Blehar looked at this or not.

It is also consistent with Lauro's statement: "All he [Schreffler] said was, ‘There’s nothing to it — we’re going to close our case.’ And I said, ‘That’s fine, I’m going to close my case, too.’ “

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...enn_state.html

Both of their stories are consistent. And that story is that Ray Gricar decided not to prosecute Jerry Sandusky before DPW made its decision.

There was a police report and a recommendation from the police investigating Sandusky that charges be filed.

Please forgive my rather terse answer previously; I was not attempting to blow you off with my prior response. I am still recovering and was a bit weak. I definitely do not wish to give you the impression that I was. Even though we often disagree, I value your input greatly.

I would also suggest that you might look under the PSU/Sandusky board. There is a thread on the 1998 investigation. I think my surprise at the testimony is evident.

 

[Trackergd]

Glad to see you back J.J. Hope you are feeling better!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

OK, I have gotten through the entire thing.

Honestly, I am stuck on the credibility of Blehar. If what he is saying is true, it is probably one of the most massive cover-ups in history, rivaling the Kennedy assassination, the Kecksburg incident and Roswell.

The bottom line is either Blehar is a nut job and we move on, or he's on the mark and we have a massive child sex ring running in PA that involves big and powerful people with lots of disposable income. We have seen this in other parts of the country and within the Catholic Church, so it's not a big surprise.

Where does RG fall into this? I could see all of this playing into any of the three scenario's. Suicide due to guilt over the victims, payed a ton of cash to vanish somewhere else in the world or killed to protect powerful people in high positions within and outside of government.

J.J, what is your opinon on Blehar? Just curious.

I am reminded of an old adage. "In every rumor, there is a grain of truth".

No blogger gets it correct 100% of the time, and Blehar is no exception (neither am I). When he realizes he made a factual mistake, he usually does correct it. He has made some. One example was not realizing the janitors were subcontractors when Calhoun saw Sandusky in 2000. He tried to make out that they were not working at PSU; they were not, at that time, directly employed by PSU, but they were working there. IIRC, he corrected that.

I think his research is not as good as it could be. I would not hold him out as an expert on the 1998 incident, or RFG, in part because he said that he really was not familiar with that aspect.

As for the pedo ring, I heard that some in LE take it seriously. I would not dismiss it out of hand.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We have talked about the possibility of suicide as an explanation of RFG. There are several indicators, such as a family history of depression, which raise the likelihood of suicide. There is another one, profession.

I found this article that indicates attorneys have a substantially higher rate of suicide. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

 

[Ozoner]

JJ has noted that no female has been reported as missing during the time frame. I would counter that it cannot be assumed a woman would have been from the area.

I agree. Also, many people are not in close contact with family members and never get reported missing when something (like ending up drowned inside a car) happens to them.
Incidentally, I find any connection to Sandusky implausuble.
The more I learn how frequently drowning victims are never found, the more I think suicide is the most likely explanation. It's possible that he chose to start a new life, but it seems like he would have resurfaced by now.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree. Also, many people are not in close contact with family members and never get reported missing when something (like ending up drowned inside a car) happens to them.
Incidentally, I find any connection to Sandusky implausuble.
The more I learn how frequently drowning victims are never found, the more I think suicide is the most likely explanation. It's possible that he chose to start a new life, but it seems like he would have resurfaced by now.

One thing the BPD did was check out other missing people. At one point they were considering a missing woman from the Midwest (Iowa, I think) could be involved. Nobody with any known connection to RFG is missing; in this case, any electronic footprint would include a "known connection."

Since RFG went missing, there have been several people drowned it that branch on the Susquehanna. All bodies were covered.

I have only heard of one case, prior to RFG's disappearance, of a body not being recovered. It was of a man whose car went into the river, but his body was never recovered. It was the "North Branch" of the Susquehanna; Lewisburg is on the West Branch, which meets the North Branch south of Lewisburg.

It is unlikely, though not impossible, that RFG drowned in the river and his body was just never recovered.

At this point, I do not see a Sandusky/PSU connection.

 

[Ozoner]

Since RFG went missing, there have been several people drowned it that branch on the Susquehanna. All bodies were recovered.

I have only heard of one case, prior to RFG's disappearance, of a body not being recovered. It was of a man whose car went into the river, but his body was never recovered. It was the "North Branch" of the Susquehanna; Lewisburg is on the West Branch, which meets the North Branch south of Lewisburg.

This case is definitely one of the more perplexing ones I've seen. I come to a different conclusion every time I review the evidence.
Maybe LE dismissed the Hell's Angel's story too quickly. While Gricar may not have prosecuted the suspect personally, Gricar was recognizable as a prosecutor in the area. Someone wanting to lash out against the government could have recognized him and killed him. A Hell's Angel would be exactly the type to do something like that.
On another note, Gricar had shown interest in Mel Wiley, the police chief who took a powder, so it's possible that Ray decided to kill himself in a way that would create a mystery. For instance, he may have wanted people to think that he had run off, when in reality he crawled into a mine shaft or manhole somewhere & slashed his wrists.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This case is definitely one of the more perplexing ones I've seen. I come to a different conclusion every time I review the evidence.
Maybe LE dismissed the Hell's Angel's story too quickly. While Gricar may not have prosecuted the suspect personally, Gricar was recognizable as a prosecutor in the area. Someone wanting to lash out against the government could have recognized him and killed him. A Hell's Angel would be exactly the type to do something like that.

The Hell's Angel theory, in particular, has far too many problems with it, including that one of the claimed sites does not exist. That doesn't preclude other foul play scenarios.

The general "revenge" possibilities have several problems, including how would a murderer know RFG was in Lewisburg, and why would he/she attempt this is a well populated area, as opposed rural area. One possibility is that RFG was lured to Lewisburg, but how?

On another note, Gricar had shown interest in Mel Wiley, the police chief who took a powder, so it's possible that Ray decided to kill himself in a way that would create a mystery. For instance, he may have wanted people to think that he had run off, when in reality he crawled into a mine shaft or manhole somewhere & slashed his wrists.

I give suicide about a 10% chance, but most of that does not involve RFG drowning in the Susquehanna.

There are wooded areas and wetland area across the river from Lewisburg, all within easy walking distance from where the Mini was found. As far as I know, there was never a systematic search of the areas east of the Susquehanna. While it is not a mine shaft or a manhole, it may actually fit that scenario better.

Wiley would also point to voluntary departure, but it does point away from foul play.

 

[Ozoner]

The Hell's Angel theory, in particular, has far too many problems with it, including that one of the claimed sites does not exist. That doesn't preclude other foul play scenarios.

The Hell's Angel scenario cannot be ruled out just because some of the informant's information was wrong. If he got the information 2nd- or 3rd-hand. I would expect some errors--but the crux of the story may be true.

The general "revenge" possibilities have several problems, including how would a murderer know RFG was in Lewisburg, and why would he/she attempt this is a well populated area, as opposed rural area. One possibility is that RFG was lured to Lewisburg, but how?

Revenge doesn't assume pre-planning. Revenge can be the motive in a crime of opportunity. The revenge wouldn't have had to relate to his job. Ray had a reputation as a ladies' man. Had he ever fooled around with a married woman? That would give someone a strong motive for murder.

I give suicide about a 10% chance, but most of that does not involve RFG drowning in the Susquehanna.

There are wooded areas and wetland area across the river from Lewisburg, all within easy walking distance from where the Mini was found. As far as I know, there was never a systematic search of the areas east of the Susquehanna. While it is not a mine shaft or a manhole, it may actually fit that scenario

I would not be at all surprised if Ray is back in one of those wetland areas, regardless of whether he killed himself or was murdered.

Wiley would also point to voluntary departure, but it does point away from foul play.

Every theory seems to have evidence that points away from it. I used to lean towards voluntary disappearance, but I don't think he would have or could have kept it up this long.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think RFG could stay hidden for a while, if he went to a foreign country. That is a very real possibility.

A lot of the HA information was wrong, plus it doesn't explain how they knew RFG would be in Lewisburg. A group of HA's happening to run into him Lewisburg, taking and killing him, and hiding the body so it would never be found is stretching.

The "ladies' man" aspect is possible, though perhaps during a "lover's quarrel" more than anything preplanned. Some of the witnesses placed RFG in Lewisburg on Saturday morning (4/16/05). I can think of several reasons why RFG would need to spend the night in Lewisburg:
1. Not feeling well and wanting to lay down.
2, Tired and wanting to rest before going home.
3. Have a bit too much to drink, and deciding he didn't want to drive buzzed.
4. In theory, a car problem (but none were known).

In all of those, RFG could call PEF, either that night or in the morning, just to check in.

The one instance where I could see RFG not phoning home would be if he was with a woman.

That is consistent with the the eyewitness reports, but there is no physical evidence,

 

[Ozoner]

The "ladies' man" aspect is possible, though perhaps during a "lover's quarrel" more than anything preplanned.
...
The one instance where I could see RFG not phoning home would be if he was with a woman.

I wasn't thinking lover's quarrel so much as I was thinking lover's long-haul-trucker husband came home a day early and didn't want to share.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wasn't thinking lover's quarrel so much as I was thinking lover's long-haul-trucker husband came home a day early and didn't want to share.

Also possible, but the woman would have to be aware of it. That makes it a bit more problematic. Would the hypothetical "other woman" be willing to cover up for her husband for more than a decade? Would the hypothetical cuckold be willing to leave his wife alive with the knowledge that he killed a high profile member of law enforcement?

Even if the "other woman" did not witness nor was involved in the actual killing, she'd have to know that RFG was in Lewisburg to see her. If RFG vanishes after that, she can put two and two together.

Also, if the witnesses are correct, RFG was in Lewisburg on Saturday morning and was with an unknown woman in the evening of 4/15/05.

I'll give the current foul play scenario that I rank as most likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The current foul play scenario that I think is most likely is this:

RFG was planning to meet a woman, a lover, in Lewisburg, and spend the night with her; he will meet her in the late afternoon or early evening. She may have been married or someone involved in a case, e.g. a defendant, or a relative/S.O., or both. For whatever reason either she or RFG or both don't want to be seen with each other in Centre County.

Prior to 4/15/05 it is known that RFG wanted to get rid of the data on his laptop. He arrives in Lewisburg around 12:30 PM, earlier than the scheduled meeting with the woman. There, he disposes of the laptop and meets the woman in the late afternoon.

RFG meets the other woman, and spends the night. After that, he sees her on Saturday as well. They are at "her place."

At some point, one of these things happen:

A. RFG has an accident, or health crisis, that is fatal.
B. They get into an argument and RFG is killed, possibly accidentally.

The woman doesn't want, in any case, a dead district attorney to be found in her place, and hides the body. The reasons being that she might have been connected to a defendant and/or she doesn't want her S.O. to find out.

That is consistent with some of the evidence.

 

[Ozoner]

The current foul play scenario that I think is most likely is this:

RFG was planning to meet a woman, a lover, in Lewisburg, and spend the night with her; he will meet her in the late afternoon or early evening. She may have been married or someone involved in a case, e.g. a defendant, or a relative/S.O., or both. For whatever reason either she or RFG or both don't want to be seen with each other in Centre County.

Prior to 4/15/05 it is known that RFG wanted to get rid of the data on his laptop. He arrives in Lewisburg around 12:30 PM, earlier than the scheduled meeting with the woman. There, he disposes of the laptop and meets the woman in the late afternoon.

RFG meets the other woman, and spends the night. After that, he sees her on Saturday as well. They are at "her place."

At some point, one of these things happen:

A. RFG has an accident, or health crisis, that is fatal.
B. They get into an argument and RFG is killed, possibly accidentally.

The woman doesn't want, in any case, a dead district attorney to be found in her place, and hides the body. The reasons being that she might have been connected to a defendant and/or she doesn't want her S.O. to find out.

That is consistent with some of the evidence.

I've considered the health crisis angle; it would be consistent with Gricar's tiredness, which could suggest burgeoning heart failure. (We talked about that before, with a comparison to Nelson Rockefeller.)
I don't know about the argument angle; if it was just a fling, it doesn't seem like either of them would have had enough invested in the relationship for them to have had the kind of argument that would lead to someone getting killed.
I wasn't aware that there were credible Saturday morning sightings; I'm not sure how much stock to put in those.

 

[Trackergd]

The Hell's Angel scenario cannot be ruled out just because some of the informant's information was wrong. If he got the information 2nd- or 3rd-hand. I would expect some errors--but the crux of the story may be true.

The HA's and other 1%'rs/OMC's very rarely take out high profile targets without a really, really good reason as it brings a lot of unwanted attention to their operations. I seriously doubt anything RG or his staff did would rise to that level.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've considered the health crisis angle; it would be consistent with Gricar's tiredness, which could suggest burgeoning heart failure. (We talked about that before, with a comparison to Nelson Rockefeller.)
I don't know about the argument angle; if it was just a fling, it doesn't seem like either of them would have had enough invested in the relationship for them to have had the kind of argument that would lead to someone getting killed.
I wasn't aware that there were credible Saturday morning sightings; I'm not sure how much stock to put in those.

Witness sighting are problematic. A local businessman that owned the SoS, Bennett saw him Saturday and told LE Saturday night. Two other saw him at about the same time. It could have been him, or not.

At least some in LE, DZ, Buehner, have said publicly that they think it was RFG on 4/16. That doesn't mean that it was RFG.

It might have been more than just a fling. Driving to Lewisburg is a bit much for a one night stand.

As for health, RFG was at the right age for these kinds of problems.

 

[Ozoner]

The HA's and other 1%'rs/OMC's very rarely take out high profile targets without a really, really good reason as it brings a lot of unwanted attention to their operations. I seriously doubt anything RG or his staff did would rise to that level.

I was thinking in terms of a lone-wolf HA who later enlisted the help of a couple of other bikers to dispose of the body, not an organized HA hit. There's no way HA officers would have approved going after Gricar; that's a given.