PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[SeekingJana]

Just to add a point, RFG had relatives in Slovenia, that he did visit, I think, on at least two occasions. I have heard that some of the family photos in his office were these cousins.

RFG was originally a Russian history major, so he had a passing interest in Slavic culture, at least. He was known to have been interested in Slovenia. It would have been virtually impossible for him not to have known that he was eligible for Slovenian citizenship and that being an American would not be a barrier to him. (People interested in this might want to google "Judge Joseph O'Kicki.")

That does not mean that RFG is in Slovenia, but it would not be too alien an environment. There were circulars on him in Slovenia, in Slovenian, but I don't think they were issued until 2007, and I don't know how widely they were circulated.

Just wanted to say how much I love this post. Thanks for putting the finer points on the prospect.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ex-Alabama trooper shot and killed after shooting prosecutor in the face, cops say

I'm posting this because it is a rare attack on a prosecutor, but I'm also posting it because of the MO.

There have been killings of prosecutors over the years, but it is less than 2 dozen in the last century. In several, the prosecutor was the victim of a random crime. A few were shot in court,and were not the specific target. Most of them were like this one, someone approached the prosecutor, and shot him. The prosecutor was either going though his daily routine or was at home when the killer came to the door. There was no attempt to hide the body.

If someone wanted to kill RFG because of a grudge, I think it would be unlikely that the lured RFG to Lewisburg.

The would be killer in this case was an ex-state policeman (and yes Jana, I thought of you). In the previous case, the killer was an ex-justice of the peace.
Kaufman County murders - Wikipedia

 

[SeekingJana]

Ex-Alabama trooper shot and killed after shooting prosecutor in the face, cops say

I'm posting this because it is a rare attack on a prosecutor, but I'm also posting it because of the MO.

There have been killings of prosecutors over the years, but it is less than 2 dozen in the last century. In several, the prosecutor was the victim of a random crime. A few were shot in court,and were not the specific target. Most of them were like this one, someone approached the prosecutor, and shot him. The prosecutor was either going though his daily routine or was at home when the killer came to the door. There was no attempt to hide the body.

If someone wanted to kill RFG because of a grudge, I think it would be unlikely that the lured RFG to Lewisburg.

The would be killer in this case was an ex-state policeman (and yes Jana, I thought of you). In the previous case, the killer was an ex-justice of the peace.
Kaufman County murders - Wikipedia

I just knew you would see this case and think of me and my collection of past posts about DAs and former DAs in just my media areas now or in the past encountering violent former LE personnel who would like to kill them or did kill them. That's why I didn't post it already.

In the Alabama case, it was, again, close to my former" home", just like the Kaufman Co. Texas triple murders were. Add in an Atlanta area DA and we'd have a gruesome hat trick. ( I actually think there was an assistant DA gunned down in the Atlanta area by a LEO when I lived there but I don' t recall the names).

I checked with friends in AL, and the DA who was shot in or near Demopolis, Alabama, should be OK, and is improving and very glad to be alive.
I can't ever say how grateful I am for every sunrise I awake to see and every sunset I'm blessed to be alive to witness. I know Greg Griggers feels the same way tonight. The shooter and former State Policeman who had the grudge against him was named Steve Smith. He had been investigated for involvement in a robbery years ago, and never faced trial, as I understand it from Alabama news reports about Mr. Griggers' condition.

Did Ray encounter a psychopath LE officer or former LE officer in Lewisburg? What is the probability he crossed paths with someone who worked in LE at some point in his career in PA who held a grudge against him from years and years before? I think it's an angle which LE is extremely resistant to pursue, but should be one of the first " outer circle" types of perps. they do consider as an assailant because of their almost unlimited level of access to every person they come in contact with. Rule it out and then go on to the next layer of the circle. But, they don't.

I'm thankful for the good LE personnel, of course. I tend to think that Ray Gricar had been around the court house and in court with LE giving testimony and such long enough to know the professionals from the ones gone bad much easier than the general public can easily discern.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity only

Did Ray encounter a psychopath LE officer or former LE officer in Lewisburg? What is the probability he crossed paths with someone who worked in LE at some point in his career in PA who held a grudge against him from years and years before?

I am looking at the statistics and modus operandi.

Since 1912, there have been 14-16 prosecutors know to have been killed. Several were killed in a courtroom and were not necessarily an intended target. 2-3 were the victims of street crimes, where the killer didn't know

Prosecutor's Memorial: Memorial for Prosecutors Killed in the Line of Duty

Confronting evil: A history of prosecutor deaths in the United States

There are several not on the list, e.g. the unsolved very definite murder of Thomas Wales in WA in 2001, which may or may not be job related, or a hit and run death of a prosecutor with the AG's office in Harrisburg.

Assuming that there was an average of 20,000 per year since 1980 (there were 40,000 in 2013), the murder rate for prosecutors was about 1.5/100,000. The murder rate for the US in 2017 was 5.3/100,000. The annual murder between 1980 and 2017 was 10.2/100,000 (1980) to 4.4/100,000 (2014). Even if the number of prosecutor murdered were doubled, it would still be below the average US murder rate.

In terms of MO, all were either killed at home, while following their daily activities, victims of street crimes. Except for one, who was blown up in his car, all were shot. Absolutely none of their remains were hidden.

If RFG was the victim of a targeted murder, it would be unique event in the US during slightly more than the last century.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped for brevity only



I am looking at the statistics and modus operandi.

Since 1912, there have been 14-16 prosecutors know to have been killed. Several were killed in a courtroom and were not necessarily an intended target. 2-3 were the victims of street crimes, where the killer didn't know

Prosecutor's Memorial: Memorial for Prosecutors Killed in the Line of Duty

Confronting evil: A history of prosecutor deaths in the United States

There are several not on the list, e.g. the unsolved very definite murder of Thomas Wales in WA in 2001, which may or may not be job related, or a hit and run death of a prosecutor with the AG's office in Harrisburg.

Assuming that there was an average of 20,000 per year since 1980 (there were 40,000 in 2013), the murder rate for prosecutors was about 1.5/100,000. The murder rate for the US in 2017 was 5.3/100,000. The annual murder between 1980 and 2017 was 10.2/100,000 (1980) to 4.4/100,000 (2014). Even if the number of prosecutor murdered were doubled, it would still be below the average US murder rate.

In terms of MO, all were either killed at home, while following their daily activities, victims of street crimes. Except for one, who was blown up in his car, all were shot. Absolutely none of their remains were hidden.

If RFG was the victim of a targeted murder, it would be unique event in the US during slightly more than the last century.

I agree with you. The lack of a body or some remains somewhere is the deal breaker here for me. Having been forced to deal with stalking, then its escalation to overt violence clouds my perception sometimes.

I still believe he left Lewisburg alive, and on his own.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree with you. The lack of a body or some remains somewhere is the deal breaker here for me. Having been forced to deal with stalking, then its escalation to overt violence clouds my perception sometimes.

I still believe he left Lewisburg alive, and on his own.

Well, that means that if RFG was murdered, he probably wasn't murdered that way, i.e. someone tailing him. That does not mean he wasn't murdered.

The thing that makes the most sense, in terms of foul play, is a clandestine meeting. In other words, he might have left Lewisburg alive, but didn't stay alive.

 

[SeekingJana]

Well, that means that if RFG was murdered, he probably wasn't murdered that way, i.e. someone tailing him. That does not mean he wasn't murdered.

The thing that makes the most sense, in terms of foul play, is a clandestine meeting. In other words, he might have left Lewisburg alive, but didn't stay alive.

Anything could have happened. I think he left Lewisburg alive and well and wasn't harmed or a victim of foul play, is what I meant. I should have specified, I'm sorry.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'll stick with my original statement. That is the possibility that haunts me.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'll stick with my original statement. That is the possibility that haunts me.

I understand. It means he could have been followed and murdered anywhere. I'd hope remains would be found, and identified since there is DNA in CODIS for him.
Try to hold on to that when you feel haunted. His DNA has been in CODIS for the duration of him being missing. We have no way of knowing how many people die and their bones are in woods or water or other places, but surely it's not that many? Do you have any idea from any reliable source? I know you have mad source statistics for almost everything connected to the case.
Still, putting myself in that position of being murdered and dumped, I have a hard time thinking of a dumping place where at least bones wouldn't be found by hunters or herb gatherers. ( whatever the New Age people are looking for- ginger, ginseng, IDK).
If a body goes into a body of water, usually you get floating after a few days if the ambient temperature is high enough.

I can't end my post on those thoughts, so let's agree that walkaway is a more likely outcome than foul play and try to be positive. 13 and a half years is a long time, either way.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Nothing on the bones as of yet.

 

[Trackergd]

If RFG was a victim of Homicide, I would be at 95% that it occurred away from the park. The problem I have with it occurring during a clandestine meeting with a lover is that disposing of the body would be difficult as many a convicted murderer will verify.

 

[Trackergd]

And now also a member of an ASTM Committee on Forensics!

Hopefully being on the SAR and Forensics Committees will introduce me to some cutting edge technology (or stuff that we just are not normally privy to) that could help us with the cases we are working on.

 

[GarAndTeed]

And now also a member of an ASTM Committee on Forensics!

Hopefully being on the SAR and Forensics Committees will introduce me to some cutting edge technology (or stuff that we just are not normally privy to) that could help us with the cases we are working on.

Congrats- good for you! Best wishes...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If RFG was a victim of Homicide, I would be at 95% that it occurred away from the park. The problem I have with it occurring during a clandestine meeting with a lover is that disposing of the body would be difficult as many a convicted murderer will verify.

Playing devil's advocate, how likely, in your view, would it be for RFG to have forced into another car, driven out of Lewisburg and then murdered? Assume, for this question, that it was definitely premeditated murder and not one of the other scenarios.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If RFG was a victim of Homicide, I would be at 95% that it occurred away from the park. The problem I have with it occurring during a clandestine meeting with a lover is that disposing of the body would be difficult as many a convicted murderer will verify.

I wanted to handle this separately, because it deals with the disposal of the body.

It would be impossible to have killed RFG along the street or in the parking lot, and them move the body without leaving a lot of evidence (even drag marks) or without being seen.

If RFG had been inside a building, it becomes possible. I am playing devil's advocate here.

If it would be in a residence, it could become a lot more likely. There are several ways to do it, even in Lewisburg. One way would be using an airtight container. Here is an example from near me: Source: Man used Lyft to take Temple student's body 100 miles to grandma's house

The killer, K, could have buried the remains later. This would require the killer to move a 180 pound body, which is easier said than done.

A second, in town, method would be if the was a residence with a dirt basement. The body could be buried there, assuming it is K's residence. That requires that there be such a residence.

Tossing the body in the river has the same problem as the airtight container and also increase the likelihood witnesses. An the body could be recovered.

In a rural area, a vacation cabin, for example, there could be few more options. The disused well, or cistern, is a pre-dug hole, and it is unlikely that anyone would look for drag marks; either could be closed off later.

The body could also be put in a shallow grave, because it would be unlikely that anyone would notice the digging. K could go back the next week or later, if necessary, and dig a deeper grave. Likewise, the remains could be kept in an airtight container or deep freeze until K could come back and dig a grave.

It is more possible in a rural area, where there probably won't be witnesses, than in a town.

 

[Trackergd]

Playing devil's advocate, how likely, in your view, would it be for RFG to have forced into another car, driven out of Lewisburg and then murdered? Assume, for this question, that it was definitely premeditated murder and not one of the other scenarios.

It is possible, and to the point, more probable than being murdered in Lewisburg and then being transported out. Unless the lover had associates willing to take a big risk, she would not be moving a body alone.

 

[Trackergd]

I wanted to handle this separately, because it deals with the disposal of the body.

It would be impossible to have killed RFG along the street or in the parking lot, and them move the body without leaving a lot of evidence (even drag marks) or without being seen.

If RFG had been inside a building, it becomes possible. I am playing devil's advocate here.

If it would be in a residence, it could become a lot more likely. There are several ways to do it, even in Lewisburg. One way would be using an airtight container. Here is an example from near me: Source: Man used Lyft to take Temple student's body 100 miles to grandma's house

The killer, K, could have buried the remains later. This would require the killer to move a 180 pound body, which is easier said than done.

A second, in town, method would be if the was a residence with a dirt basement. The body could be buried there, assuming it is K's residence. That requires that there be such a residence.

Tossing the body in the river has the same problem as the airtight container and also increase the likelihood witnesses. An the body could be recovered.

In a rural area, a vacation cabin, for example, there could be few more options. The disused well, or cistern, is a pre-dug hole, and it is unlikely that anyone would look for drag marks; either could be closed off later.

The body could also be put in a shallow grave, because it would be unlikely that anyone would notice the digging. K could go back the next week or later, if necessary, and dig a deeper grave. Likewise, the remains could be kept in an airtight container or deep freeze until K could come back and dig a grave.

It is more possible in a rural area, where there probably won't be witnesses, than in a town.

Sealed container has potential, but again has to be moved. Buried under a dirt basement floor is not out of the question, however decomposition gases are nasty and the pressure would eventually find a leak point and rise up into the house.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Sealed container has potential, but again has to be moved. Buried under a dirt basement floor is not out of the question, however decomposition gases are nasty and the pressure would eventually find a leak point and rise up into the house.

Assuming it was a female killer, she could use a dolly to move the container.

RFG weighed about 180, and I don't know too many women that could carry that. However, I do know a number of women who can flip a body over and could slide 180 pounds. They are called "nurses."

I'm being a bit facetious, but I know a number of nurses that can maneuver even a taller, 250 pound man on to a table or gurney. Jana might to chime in on this. The problem would be wheeling the dolly, or sliding the container, down the street in Lewisburg. It will attract attention.

As to the dirt floor, I was thinking about putting in a concrete floor afterward. The problem with this, and hiding the body in Lewisburg in general, is that there will probably be a lot of cleanup.

 

[SeekingJana]

Assuming it was a female killer, she could use a dolly to move the container.

RFG weighed about 180, and I don't know too many women that could carry that. However, I do know a number of women who can flip a body over and could slide 180 pounds. They are called "nurses."

I'm being a bit facetious, but I know a number of nurses that can maneuver even a taller, 250 pound man on to a table or gurney. Jana might to chime in on this. The problem would be wheeling the dolly, or sliding the container, down the street in Lewisburg. It will attract attention.

As to the dirt floor, I was thinking about putting in a concrete floor afterward. The problem with this, and hiding the body in Lewisburg in general, is that there will probably be a lot of cleanup.

Yep, we nurses are a homicidal group. When we aren't busy saving lives, we're busy killing people.

We spend 4-8 years in college ( depending on degree level obtained) to learn how to slide deceased adult men into hiding places or hoist them up into vehicle trunks, etc.
Also, we are such gloomy Gertrudes that we take rejection very badly, hatchet at the ready, slick leaf bag sized Steel Sak sliding garbage bags in the glove box. ( One would hold an adult male).

My turn to be facetious. Just as in every profession under the sun, there have been killer nurses and doctors, but overwhelmingly, the healing professionals do their very best to keep people alive and actively help them get well.

I have had nurse co-worker friends who were murdered by their ex husbands and the case here on WS of my nurse friend who was murdered by her drug- addled boyfriend 3 years ago, but I've never known any nurse who killed anyone on or off the job.

Have you?

 

[Trackergd]

I know a Senior CSP Manager and Scrub Nurse who threatens to use a cranial trephine on me once in a while....