PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

[christine2448]

Until we have something concrete, any idea is plausible. We can't prove he is alive or dead.

I agree with this statement...I am not at all for the WPP theory, but, having to disappear and assume a new identity, to protect his family, friends, etc...possible...just run away, found love, felt to closed in with Patti, not believable to me....murdered, very possible.

 

[christine2448]

I just can't buy into the witness protection program theory without some evidence that he was a witness to something big.

I agree with you...I'm not one that is leaning towards this scenario.

I wish I had more time to read, research...it's frustrating when you want so badly to learn information but just don't have the time!

 

[Louisa]

I agree with you...I'm not one that is leaning towards this scenario.

I wish I had more time to read, research...it's frustrating when you want so badly to learn information but just don't have the time!

On the other hand, if you have the time to research, you'll find that your frustration will grow for other reasons! The minute details--at least the ones you'll be able to gather from the available media--will literally drive you crazy in this case.

Why is there one interview with Det. Z in which he says Ray went to Huntingdon to Lake Raystown on Thursday afternoon, April 14, yet we see that account nowhere else in any press? (Did Ray "play hooky" from work that afternoon or not? That's important.)

Why do some accounts of the cigarette ash say there were such trace amounts that someone might have brought them in on a shoe and that there was a faint smell of smoke in the car, yet another account says the Mini smelled of smoke so much that initially LE thought Ray might have gone off for the weekend on a sort of party/bender?

Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary significantly? Sometimes Ray is asleep when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Sometimes they go through their "morning routine together" and discuss the dog care in a conversation.

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?

Those are just four right off the top of my head to illustrate that having the time will only drive you crazier, LOL!

 

[luthersmama]

)


<snip>

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?

Those are just four right off the top of my head to illustrate that having the time will only drive you crazier, LOL!

For me, if this financial information is true, it suggests that he had set up an alternate identity long ago and had decided that it was time to take off.
He probably moved money to off-shore accounts over years and years and is now sitting on a beach, far far away from his old life.

 

[christine2448]

For me, if this financial information is true, it suggests that he had set up an alternate identity long ago and had decided that it was time to take off.
He probably moved money to off-shore accounts over years and years and is now sitting on a beach, far far away from his old life.

As much as I don't want to believe it, it really does make so much more sense then anything else we have come up with so far...IMO anyway.

 

[Hbgchick]

Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary significantly? Sometimes Ray is asleep when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Sometimes they go through their "morning routine together" and discuss the dog care in a conversation.

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?

These are the two that get me. Which version of PF's story is true? Where is all of his money?

This question may have been asked, but does anyone know if PF ever smoked? I know she didn't normally, and she also says that Ray would NEVER, EVER, EVER (she stresses this almost too much, if you ask me) let someone smoke in his car. However, as a reformed smoker myself, I know that sometimes ex-smokers can light up again in times of stress (or maybe panic). And if a person did happen to slip up, perhaps it would be prudent to for that person to be sure that LE knew that they knew that smoking was not permitted in Ray's car, as in "certainly I would never think to smoke in it".?

Louisa - we haven't thought of that one yet! Lol. Just throwing ideas out there, but the smoke thing bothers me too.

 

[Hbgchick]

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14836948.htm


Gricar probe files turned over to state police

By Mike Joseph

[email protected]

BELLEFONTE -- Borough police this week turned over all their files on missing prosecutor Ray Gricar to a state police team that will investigate their investigation.

The state police Criminal Investigative Analysis team for western Pennsylvania, based in Bedford, took possession of a banker's box full of Bellefonte police paperwork at 9 a.m. Thursday to begin a six-week study of the entire case, police chief Shawn Weaver said Friday.

At the end of July, the state police team will have prepared a PowerPoint presentation and will use it as the basis for question-and-answer session with Bellefonte police and all other Gricar investigators, Weaver said.

"They could give us some possible avenues (of further investigation) or some insight," Weaver said.

Gricar, Centre County's district attorney for 20 years, vanished on April 15, 2005, eight months before he planned to retire, and hasn't been heard from since.

Weaver and detective Darrel Zaccagni said Friday that police in Minnesota and Michigan investigated two supposed sightings of Gricar last month -- a month of extensive national coverage of the disappearance -- to no avail.

In Minnesota on Mother's Day, May 14, a woman thought she saw Gricar dining in a restaurant with a woman, but the man turned out to be a dentist who has been well known to the community for 20 years, Weaver said.

In Grand Rapids, Mich., the following week, someone mistook a greeter in a Wal-Mart store for Gricar and called Bellefonte police. "It was a person that matched Ray's description, but he had been working there several years," Weaver said.

In both cases, Weaver said, Bellefonte took the initial reports from witnesses and relayed the information to Minnesota and Michigan authorities, who found and spoke to the targeted man and came away satisfied he wasn't Gricar.

"It comes and goes in spurts," Weaver said. "It seems that every time there's national coverage, it tends to generate a lot of interest and calls. Unfortunately, they haven't panned out."

 

[altruist1000]

History rewritten?

Dateline Report indicated that Ray Gricar had been living with his GF for 3 years. My recollection is that this "couple" was dating for 3 years & had been living together for 14 months.

Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him" a few seconds pause "Now I don't know where he is" Really?

Was DNA extracted from the 2 cigarette butts outside the mini van? Were all possibilities considered or only KNOWN criminals?

 

[Louisa]

History rewritten?

Dateline Report indicated that Ray Gricar had been living with his GF for 3 years. My recollection is that this "couple" was dating for 3 years & had been living together for 14 months.

Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him" a few seconds pause "Now I don't know where he is" Really?

Was DNA extracted from the 2 cigarette butts outside the mini van? Were all possibilities considered or only KNOWN criminals?

Hi Altruist,

When I was digging around trying to firm up for myself the PF/RG timeline, I kept getting August 2001 as a start point for their dating relationship. May or may not be accurate, but I haven't heard any real dispute on that as a starting point. The "living together" timeline seems more fluid and disputable. I've read in an article somewhere (can't remember offhand) that RG had moved in with PF by February (?) 2002. The month may not be exact, but it was late winter 2002. Elsewhere I've heard from posters they lived together 18 months, now from you 14 months. Some of that discrepancy may be that the nature of "living together" can evolve slowly over time as opposed to "getting married" which has a specific date of occurrence. Who knows?

What we do know is that their relationship was less than 4 years old on the day he disappeared.

Per your post above: Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him"

I caught this replayed on Dan Abrams the other night--had just flipped channels and didn't even realize they were replaying. Dang it! But hearing that statement, something in the tone and emphasis of words really struck me. Wish I had that clip on tape to replay and listen to again. . . . Good catch, altruist. What do you make of it?

 

[altruist1000]

Hi Altruist,

When I was digging around trying to firm up for myself the PF/RG timeline, I kept getting August 2001 as a start point for their dating relationship. May or may not be accurate, but I haven't heard any real dispute on that as a starting point. The "living together" timeline seems more fluid and disputable. I've read in an article somewhere (can't remember offhand) that RG had moved in with PF by February (?) 2002. The month may not be exact, but it was late winter 2002. Elsewhere I've heard from posters they lived together 18 months, now from you 14 months. Some of that discrepancy may be that the nature of "living together" can evolve slowly over time as opposed to "getting married" which has a specific date of occurrence. Who knows?

What we do know is that their relationship was less than 4 years old on the day he disappeared.

Per your post above: Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him"

I caught this replayed on Dan Abrams the other night--had just flipped channels and didn't even realize they were replaying. Dang it! But hearing that statement, something in the tone and emphasis of words really struck me. Wish I had that clip on tape to replay and listen to again. . . . Good catch, altruist. What do you make of it?

My initial suspicions pointed in the domestic violence direction & continue to. There is something very wrong in this case & the investigation that ensued. To me this disappearance speaks volumes of vindictiveness. It may be too late but I do have hope that now that outsider's of the area are reviewing the case that the obvious is properly investigated. The person most likely to have committed foul play against Mr. Gricar was very close but due to their employment history & connections was dismissed as the viable suspect, then 3 months later was requested to take a lie detector test. This was a large error as there was time to prepare & as we all know these tests can be fooled even when administered in a timely manner, by a personality that is able to detach & has assistance. My suspicions are based on personal observation of human behavior & there are some personalities that after previous rejections commit to never suffer another one & that is what I believe happened in this case. It is much more appealing to be a victim of suspected crime than a rejected partner & who knows this better than a former victim's advocate. There are some in our society that interpret a mismatch improperly as a statement of personal failings rather than what it is a mismatch. There are many amongst us who have instability issues that go undiagnosed for the ability of those suffering to mask their personal demons.

I will also admit that a personal relationship, IMO should have prevented the transfer into the SO's Department of Responsibility & to me signifies disrespect for Mr. Gricar & importance of self interest to control & be ever present.

All of the above represents my personal opinion & is also contingent upon my belief that the investigation was absent of objectivity by what was released to the public by the investigating authority of Bellefonte.

 

[christine2448]

OK...I have been thinking today about Ray...and a few things are in my mind..I have an awful memory, can someone help me with this?


1. Still no sunglasses or Keys found right?
2. Did we ever find out about the cup of flowers found near his car..I don't remember?
3. What about the cassette tape that was found? What came of that?
4. Who all had LDT tests relating to this?
Edit to Add
5. They found a cell phone in the car, county issued...did he have a personal cell phone, if so, still missing?

 

[Louisa]

OK...I have been thinking today about Ray...and a few things are in my mind..I have an awful memory, can someone help me with this?


1. Still no sunglasses or Keys found right?
2. Did we ever find out about the cup of flowers found near his car..I don't remember?
3. What about the cassette tape that was found? What came of that?
4. Who all had LDT tests relating to this?
Edit to Add
5. They found a cell phone in the car, county issued...did he have a personal cell phone, if so, still missing?

Hi Christine,

I can't get my mind off Ray today either. Here's what I think I know about your questions:

1. Right--still no sunglasses or keys. (Even early on, that kind of tipped me toward a maybe-not-suicide theory, since it seemed less likely Ray would take his keys and wear his sunglasses to go off and commit suicide. With 14 months and no body/no suicide note found, that seems even more likely to be so.)

2. From a poster on another board with pretty clear evidence he's "inside" the investigation--LE determined the flowers were apparently placed there by a woman Ray had helped in remembrance of him.

3. Can't provide a link for you, but I remember reading in the media that the cassette was determined to have no connection to the Gricar case. I forget what was on it, but media reports at the time were that it was a "nothing."

4. I believe the only polygraphs (at least the only ones we know of in the public) are PF and LG.

5. Help me out here, Christine. I don't remember that it was determined the cell phone was county-issued, but you could be right on that. Is that verified? It would make sense. I do remember PF saying that RG didn't always take it with him physically if they were travelling and stopped somewhere, as in, if they stopped at a restaurant, he might not take it inside and would leave the cell phone in the car while they ate. This was in conjunction with explaining that it wasn't all that odd that the cell phone remained in the Mini when it was found. So, bottom line--I can't answer your question #5!

On a side note, I pulled into a Sheetz market tonight to pick up some milk, and there was a red and white Mini-Cooper parked in front! What a spooky feeling looking at it shine under the lights in front of the store. . . . I almost half expected Ray to get out of it. If only it were that easy.

 

[izzyB]

Hi Christine,

2. From a poster on another board with pretty clear evidence he's "inside" the investigation--LE determined the flowers were apparently placed there by a woman Ray had helped in remembrance of him.

this almost certainly cannot be,as those flowers were found within 24 hours of the mini-cooper if memory serves and i will try and go back to our very first thread a year ago. these flowers in a glass "juice jar" were found down by the river the very weekend he disappeared and still looked fairly fresh.

so i doubt that many would even be aware that he was missing by the time these flowers were found by LE, let alone needing a "memorial tribute" b/c early on no one knew how long this would last let alone the outcome.

 

[christine2448]

Pa. state police start their examination of Gricar case


Borough police have turned over all their files on missing former prosecutor Ray Gricar to a state police team that will probe their investigation.
The state police's criminal investigative analysis team for western Pennsylvania, based in Bedford, took possession of a banker's box full of Bellefonte police paperwork at 9 a.m. Thursday to begin a six-week study of the case, Bellefonte police chief Shawn Weaver said Friday.

At the end of July, state police will discuss their findings with Bellefonte authorities and other Gricar investigators, Weaver said.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14843462.htm

 

[Louisa]

this almost certainly cannot be,as those flowers were found within 24 hours of the mini-cooper if memory serves and i will try and go back to our very first thread a year ago. these flowers in a glass "juice jar" were found down by the river the very weekend he disappeared and still looked fairly fresh.

so i doubt that many would even be aware that he was missing by the time these flowers were found by LE, let alone needing a "memorial tribute" b/c early on no one knew how long this would last let alone the outcome.

Izzy,

Good catch! I was just reporting what this "insider" said regarding LE's take on the flowers. I should clarify, though, that it wasn't necessarily a "memorial" as in "we know Ray's dead" or anything. Maybe "tribute" would have been a more accurate word for me to use. I know that media reports were everywhere by Monday, April 17 that Ray was missing. Do you know for certain that the flowers were placed there that weekend? Does anyone know when the earliest public report of his disappearance was?

Of course, word must have spread via word-of-mouth pretty quickly even without published reports, I would think, from the inner circle outward. If the flowers were truly as LE said, from a woman that Ray helped in a professional capacity, I can envision that word of his disappearance might have reached her ears via the grapevine even before media made the disappearance public. It's not as if Bellefonte is a big city or anything . . .

Just my speculation . . .

 

[Hbgchick]

Was the juice glass dusted for fingerprints?

Who would put them there? RG himself? If it were him, that would certainly point to suicide or voluntary disappearance, right? Was it a particular sort of flower that could have been a "sign" or "signal" to PF or LG?

Could PF or LG have put them there? Maybe, but if it were either of them why wouldn't they just say so?

Was it simply a tribute from someone who knew RG?

I wonder if somebody did come to LE (when it was reported that the flowers were found) and said "hey, that was me. I put them there as a tribute to RG". That's what I'd do, if I had put a tribute there and LE was wondering why they were there I'd just tell them it was me, you know?

 

[izzyB]

i had a long and busy day and was not able to get to the first archived thread as i had hoped. i believe these flowers were down by the river that very weekend he went missing. i think (???) that LE discounted these from the beginning, so they were probably not dusted for finger prints. if patti got the car back in barely a week, i doubt they went to much trouble with this jar of fresh flowers. i will try and research this tomorrow. izzyB

 

[izzyB]

OK. i went back to our very first thread. post no. 23 gives a link to a newspaper article no longer available. in my post, no. 24, i mention the yellow flowers that had been mentioned in that article. websleuths dates this post as 4/18, which is 3 days after ray went missing. for the article to have been published in the paper on that day, the 18th let's say, the reporter would have at least have to have had the info by the 17th.

i will contend that 2 days is too early for any "friend" of ray to put flowers by a river where no one even knows for sure he was at, and just b/c the car was found on the day of the 16th, two blocks from the river, you still will never convince me that those flowers found at the latest on the 17th were from a friend of ray's as a "rememberance tribute".

no, they were probably from a picnic, innocent, or involving ray. my opinions only of course.

 

[izzyB]

overnight i thought more about the flowers and i now believe this was mentioned in that article published on or before 4/18/05, as something the police came up on when they first searched the river right after ray was reported missing. so those flowers were there even before the police first were on the scene there, and one has to think that very little publicity had gone out about the case.

at the time we wondered if perhaps ray had took some flowers there himself and sat for a while before jumping to his death.

for LE to dismiss this as a friend of ray's if wrong IMHO. it makes more sense that it was someone's picnic.

but the other thing i find interesting is the car that was stolen from the dealership, was it the saturday (24 hours) after ray's disappearance. was that ever solved? i remember that car theft was unusual in that area.

 

[christine2448]

overnight i thought more about the flowers and i now believe this was mentioned in that article published on or before 4/18/05, as something the police came up on when they first searched the river right after ray was reported missing. so those flowers were there even before the police first were on the scene there, and one has to think that very little publicity had gone out about the case.

at the time we wondered if perhaps ray had took some flowers there himself and sat for a while before jumping to his death.

for LE to dismiss this as a friend of ray's if wrong IMHO. it makes more sense that it was someone's picnic.

but the other thing i find interesting is the car that was stolen from the dealership, was it the saturday (24 hours) after ray's disappearance. was that ever solved? i remember that car theft was unusual in that area.

Ok, Izzy, you are rereading I was the other day, LOL....and I remembered the flowers, but forgot what the outcome was...so we never had an outcome on the flowers on WS? If so, I couldn't find it.

I am going to research this some more, maybe check the Q&A on Center Daily and if can't find there I 'll send this question in.

I remember the car theft too, isn't it amazing, we are on one thing, then move on and forgot about the other things, like the flowers, the car....I guess the cassette tape was resolved....so much information!!!!!