PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[cloudbuster05]

CB, you don't get it.

Assuming that both men were murdered, was there anything similar in their murders? Did the killer use a similar MO?

I think most people are going to answer no.

BTW, EMae responded to me noting different MO's and different jurisdictions.

Not every mystery is related.

We don't have Ray's body so how do we know if anything is similar? If there is a killer we don't know if the MO is simlilar yet. You closed the door on this which Im unwilling to follow suit. Everything is on the table, thats good investagation technique. To follow only one path as you have done is not what I would expect from someone representing the CDT blog.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We don't have Ray's body so how do we know if anything is similar? If there is a killer we don't know if the MO is simlilar yet. You closed the door on this which Im unwilling to follow suit. Everything is on the table, thats good investagation technique. To follow only one path as you have done is not what I would expect from someone representing the CDT blog.

We obviously do know things like time of day, contact from the road, and blood in the car and, oh, a body.

That isn't "good investagation technique." It is trying to come up with a theory that doesn't match the evidence. Even if both were murder, the way the each was committed does not match the other.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Thank you, J.J.
All I can say is , wow!
No mention of the night before?
He is cutting back-yet-hasn’t it been reported that he often worked nights?
Hasn’t it been reported that PF had called a family member BEFORE 911?
Was it usual for Mr. Gricar to just take off to ballgames? Or was this something that he had done only with his ex-wife and only when “times were bad”?
It took LE 36 hours to find his vehicle that was parked only 50 miles from home? ---
no forensic evidence ---speaks of professionals
I believe these two cases are way too similar.
He was tired? Slept at lunch-is so contradictory to the fact that Mr. Gricar often worked nights.
There were many many sightings –yet it took them 36 hours to find the car (hmm)
The dogs lose scent in the parking lot-speaks volumes.
8:07 pm –would it have been dark at 9:06?-
HE GOOGLE mapped Lewisburg to Belefonte? No way. What day/time was that search made? Who else was in the office then?
They found nothing unusual about his finances.
July 30, 2005 –laptop was found (minus hard drive)-close to where the car was parked. But remember he didn’t go all the way to the river. (according to the dogs)
hard drive found 100 yards up river –behind the antique shop-(interesting)
What time was Mr. Gricar seen with the “other woman” in the antique mall?
Does a prosecutor use the words (fry a hard drive) –what date/time were these searches made?
This makes me feel very sad for Lara, Tony, Chris , Patty and everyone that loved him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you, J.J.
All I can say is , wow!
No mention of the night before?
He is cutting back-yet-hasn’t it been reported that he often worked nights?
Hasn’t it been reported that PF had called a family member BEFORE 911?

She called her brother sometime around 8:00 PM

Was it usual for Mr. Gricar to just take off to ballgames? Or was this something that he had done only with his ex-wife and only when “times were bad”?

That is the only incident that I've heard of.

It took LE 36 hours to find his vehicle that was parked only 50 miles from home? ---

19 hours from the report.

no forensic evidence ---speaks of professionals
I believe these two cases are way too similar.

Which to cases. JPL's car was full of blood and his body was next to it.

He was tired? Slept at lunch-is so contradictory to the fact that Mr. Gricar often worked nights.
There were many many sightings –yet it took them 36 hours to find the car (hmm)

19 hours and LE had only announced it to the press about 1-2 hours before; it wasn't covered in the media market Lewisburg is in until the next day. The first witness didn't report until the Mini was found.

The dogs lose scent in the parking lot-speaks volumes.
8:07 pm –would it have been dark at 9:06?-

Sunset was about 7:50 with the end of twilight at about 8:20.

HE GOOGLE mapped Lewisburg to Belefonte? No way. What day/time was that search made? Who else was in the office then?

Never released.

They found nothing unusual about his finances.

FBI checked only recent transfers and monitors his credit cards.

July 30, 2005 –laptop was found (minus hard drive)-close to where the car was parked. But remember he didn’t go all the way to the river. (according to the dogs)
hard drive found 100 yards up river –behind the antique shop-(interesting)
What time was Mr. Gricar seen with the “other woman” in the antique mall?

Laptop was found on the north side of the bridge. The drive was found along the river bank in the park.

Does a prosecutor use the words (fry a hard drive) –what date/time were these searches made?

In the 30 days prior to his disappearance. Yes, if you found the terms used while doing a search. You see others using the term and you copy it.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Thank you, J.J. You are very knowledgable about this case!! Some of that was just my thinking out loud,, and saving my computer screen from a brick ...

Just in case someone is reading in LE

To me it seems that there are many clues and none of them point anywhere specific. Many similiarities to Roy Gricar's suicide. But also reminds me in ways of Mr. Luna's. While PF claims that he was tired in the days leading up to his "vanishing" -he was in his office the night before he vanished. What did he do while he was in his office? What did the computer show? Who did he call? And who called him? Who had access to his office computer and his home computer? The dates /times of the searches and things mentioned should also be examined to make sure that it was indeed, Mr. Gricar that made those searches. I trust the dogs. I don't believe Mr. Gricar tossed the computer or the hard drive. The woman they are describing sounds like his gf. I think that this was someone that "knew him" either professionally (good or bad) or this was personal. There are too many coincidences in this case, and I have been taught-there are no coincidences in crime. Someone out there knows more than they are saying. My heart breaks for Tony and Chris Gricar, who seem to have lost so much in their lives. I hope that they are both doing well. And Lara Gricar, I can't imagine how much she suffered. I am positive he didn't do this on purpose. Who could be so CRUEL? This would go against everything this man has proven himself to be.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

To me it seems that there are many clues and none of them point anywhere specific. Many similiarities to Roy Gricar's suicide. But also reminds me in ways of Mr. Luna's.

I'm seeing zero resemblance to Luna and only the proximity of the river. Even with that, RFG parked closer to the river at first.

While PF claims that he was tired in the days leading up to his "vanishing" -he was in his office the night before he vanished.

There was a wide consensus that he was acting oddly 1-4 prior to his disappearance.

The courthouse phone had a trunk line with just one central number and an operator at the time.

LE has not been forthcoming with the other records.

I think he tossed the drive.

His office computer was password protected.

 

[cloudbuster05]

We obviously do know things like time of day, contact from the road, and blood in the car and, oh, a body.

That isn't "good investagation technique." It is trying to come up with a theory that doesn't match the evidence. Even if both were murder, the way the each was committed does not match the other.

Thats the problem JJ we don't know what happened to Ray yet.:rollercoaster:

Again your assuming there is no comparison and Im not willing to say that as factual. How do you make these asumptions without Ray's body?

 

[cloudbuster05]

I'm seeing zero resemblance to Luna and only the proximity of the river. Even with that, RFG parked closer to the river at first.



There was a wide consensus that he was acting oddly 1-4 prior to his disappearance.

The courthouse phone had a trunk line with just one central number and an operator at the time.

LE has not been forthcoming with the other records.

I think he tossed the drive.

His office computer was password protected.

JJ how do you know Ray parked closer to the river at first? Im just curious.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thats the problem JJ we don't know what happened to Ray yet.:rollercoaster:

Again your assuming there is no comparison and Im not willing to say that as factual. How do you make these asumptions without Ray's body?

We do know he was not subject to repeated stab wounds in his car.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ how do you know Ray parked closer to the river at first? Im just curious.

3-4 people saw him (and the Mini) there.

 

[cloudbuster05]

JJ how do you know Ray parked closer to the river at first? Im just curious.

Maybe I shouldn't have asked this sorry about that. I was just curious.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe I shouldn't have asked this sorry about that. I was just curious.

Well, CB, we have discussed this, and it was mentioned the link to the episode of disappeared. One of the witnesses even talked to the press; Synder was her last name.

I think that when you do challenge things that are documented, it strongly damages the public perception that RFG might have been murdered, especially in Centre County. Coming up with a murder theory that runs counter to the evidence tends to convince the public up there that if that is the best murder theory out there, RFG must have walked away.

I've heard more than a few "Ray Gricar Jokes" and comments about how he's out there to know that, even if there is evidence of murder, it will be difficult to convince people. I'm not thrilled with that, because I'm not convinced he walked away.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Well, CB, we have discussed this, and it was mentioned the link to the episode of disappeared. One of the witnesses even talked to the press; Synder was her last name.

I think that when you do challenge things that are documented, it strongly damages the public perception that RFG might have been murdered, especially in Centre County. Coming up with a murder theory that runs counter to the evidence tends to convince the public up there that if that is the best murder theory out there, RFG must have walked away.

I've heard more than a few "Ray Gricar Jokes" and comments about how he's out there to know that, even if there is evidence of murder, it will be difficult to convince people. I'm not thrilled with that, because I'm not convinced he walked away.

What??? Also what evidence? Yes I do challenge things that are not factual and thats good investagtive practice. I have presented what exactly? The Ray Gricar jokes are just that a joke once again not real evidence. If your not convinced he walked away why do you go out of your way to push it? So much is lost when you close all those doors when thats not what this case needs. It needs equal opportunity of both theories. I will not defend myself against the obvious, I don't need to, it wastes more time and allows for distractions.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

I'm seeing zero resemblance to Luna and only the proximity of the river. Even with that, RFG parked closer to the river at first.



There was a wide consensus that he was acting oddly 1-4 prior to his disappearance.

The courthouse phone had a trunk line with just one central number and an operator at the time.

LE has not been forthcoming with the other records.

I think he tossed the drive.


His office computer was password protected.

My puter is password protected, but when I get up to go to the restroom or to lunch-sometimes, I forget to turn it off. If Mr. Gricar trusted his staff, he wouldn't much worry about turning it off, would he?

There was an operator that worked nites in the Centre County Courthouse? If so, she is who we need to talk to.

I think its time, LE comes forward with what they have, I mean whats the use in keeping things quiet after this long? It sure isn't solving the case?

This case could drive a sane person, crazy!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My puter is password protected, but when I get up to go to the restroom or to lunch-sometimes, I forget to turn it off. If Mr. Gricar trusted his staff, he wouldn't much worry about turning it off, would he?

The computer was in his office, which, while probably locked, might have been a bit conspicuous to enter.

I've kind have gotten the impression that he didn't keep his door open.

There was an operator that worked nites in the Centre County Courthouse? If so, she is who we need to talk to.

Possibly, but I doubt if the operator would log calls.

I think its time, LE comes forward with what they have, I mean whats the use in keeping things quiet after this long? It sure isn't solving the case?

This case could drive a sane person, crazy!!

I said that in 2009, 2010, and I think 2011. Disappeared was the greatest release of information since 2006, so we've gotten something. (There was some newer things in the blog as well.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What??? Also what evidence? Yes I do challenge things that are not factual and thats good investagtive practice. I have presented what exactly? The Ray Gricar jokes are just that a joke once again not real evidence. If your not convinced he walked away why do you go out of your way to push it? So much is lost when you close all those doors when thats not what this case needs. It needs equal opportunity of both theories. I will not defend myself against the obvious, I don't need to, it wastes more time and allows for distractions.

Well, the obvious is that RFG did not bleed in his car and that his body was next to it. That is factually the situation surrounding Mr. Luna. It is fact that they did not have overlapping jurisdictions.

According to JKA, who was in the office when Luna died, the topic didn't even come up. She first heard about the case after RFG disappeared, more than 18 months later. That isn't evidence that RFG ever heard of Luna.

Some posters here insisted that RFG couldn't have money to finance a new life, yet, LE is looking at that. I'm not claiming that he did have money, only that he could have.

Jokes reflect the public attitude to the case. If everyone thinks he walked, why bother looking for him (well, that is how the thought goes)? I've pointed out that it isn't illegal to walk away.

The only thing I'm pushing is resolution to the case (and possibly sanity).

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Sorry to be so lazy, but it's late; please allow me to intersperse my response to these points:

I frankly doubt if you can be a "hands on parent" when you are 2000 miles away.

that probably would have been tough 25 years ago, but today with cell phones (cheap long distance) and email (and now texts and Facebook and Skype) it is much easier to stay in emotional and psychological contact. Especially for grown children, physical proximity is not as imperative as being only a phone call away.

Ah, let's be clear; RFG did not "fake his death." If he had wished to, he could have left a suicide note and walked away.

I said faking his death or disappearing. Frankly, this is to me a distinction without a difference, given that he is now legally dead.

Well, first of all, RFG was a lawyer, and a good one. He looking at the world for a third of century legalistically, just by the nature of what he did. So now we have some factors.

1. RFG has a daughter, but she is out of the area and an independent adult. He does not have to look out for her.

2. RFG, legalistically, sees that, if he retires and gets hit by a bus in 2006, his daughter will not inherit as much. If he dies in 2005, she will get more.

3. RFG, knows that his daughter will, eventually, have to testify that she has not heard from him. Legalistically, he knows that if he tells her, she either can't declare him dead or commits perjury. The simplest solution is not telling her.

I know a lot of lawyers and none of them who would abandon their adult kids for these "legalistic" reasons. RG might or might not have been aware of the estate implications of his pension; I couldn't tell you for sure what mine are and I am nearing retirement. The estate part doesn't matter because I will need the money to live on. Second, it is not a "legalistic" point to say that because a child is an adult, it is fine to abandon her and put her through horrible pain and suffering but she will get a few extra bucks sooner than if he retired. What kind of person thinks like this?

RFG obviously does not have to be there physically for LG; he hasn't been there in her day to day life for years. His absence does not change that.
He can contribute greater assets to her, by not being there. He knows that in 2006, by not being there, LG will not get the greater assets.

At what expense to her emotional and psychological well-being? What kind of father would think this way, as if his absence would not matter. My father died 20 years ago, and I still miss him. Every day. I know kids who long for their drug-addicted fathers who abandoned them at birth to show up for just one birthday. This reasoning only works if RG was entirely consumed by money and its importance, which of course can't be true because he walked away from everything he had in the bank and his pension. So this notion is too much of a contradiction to stand, in my view.

If he did walk away, he knows that by not telling LG, he protects her from committing perjury.

We know that 1 and 2 are there; those are the effects, but don't know the intent. On 3, I can very easily see any moderately good father saying, "I don't want my daughter convicted of a felony and ending up in a cell with Large Marge."

A man who would abandon his child and his other family members cannot be considered a 'moderately good father." He would be at best a horrifically failed father and perhaps a soul-sucking narcissist. And why would he care if she committed perjury? He was walking away from her, from walking her down the aisle at her wedding, from her career successes, from her children, from any health problems she would have in the future. And it isn't perjury unless she is under oath in court. She can lie like a rug to LE and for that matter, lie in court and unless he turns up, how would anyone know?


Well, because, this way, she'd get more. One published account was that RFG pension was worth more than $300 K. Had he died, or vanished, after retirement, it would have been less.

That's a startling statement, assuming as it does that all that would matter to RG is money and he assumed that all that would matter to his daughter would be money.

The emotional/moral argument really is flimsy.

The argument for or against what? I don't know RG, and I don't know whether he walked away or not. Because I am an adult who has raised children who are not my own biologically,and because I have worked with kids and adults who were abandoned by parents at various ages, I am acutely aware of the psychological and emotional damage it does. That is just a fact, like normal rabbits have ears. So I know that an educated man who has raised a daughter to adulthood, who cared enough to have her calls put through at any time, would have to know that what he was doing would be very damaging. Thus, if he walked away,either RG was physically or psychological not well or he was very selfish, at best. From everything I've read about him, that does not seem to be the case.

And yes, I know texting was not available when RG was among us and FB was an infant, probably. That's why they are in parentheses.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I don't think whether RG took his phone and Luna left his or any fact of that ilk points either for or against a connection between their deaths. The biggest connection to my mind is that both cases have good unsolved, which strikes me as odd considering they were both prosecutors.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Pittsburghgirl I know where your coming from, I raised a boy who wasn't my own and Im still very close to him. It would be monsterous to just up and never speak to that child again, even a adult child. Nobody but a shelfish narcissist could accomplish that outcome. I've heard the same as you that Ray had his staff forward all Lara's calls no matter what.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry to be so lazy, but it's late; please allow me to intersperse my response to these points:

I won't be quite so "lazy."

that probably would have been tough 25 years ago, but today with cell phones (cheap long distance) and email (and now texts and Facebook and Skype) it is much easier to stay in emotional and psychological contact. Especially for grown children, physical proximity is not as imperative as being only a phone call away.

RFG left was not in his daughter's household 20 years ago. Ten years ago, they were not even the same state. I was always one phone call, an less than 100 miles, from my father while in college. We became less involved in each other's lives, simply because we were not in the same household. We we no longer interacting on a daily basis. We didn't have a fight or anything, we just were not there in the same household. It is the same for other adult children of friends and my college classmates.

I said faking his death or disappearing. Frankly, this is to me a distinction without a difference, given that he is now legally dead.

RFG didn't fake his disappearance, he did disappear, obviously. It is a huge distinction between "faking his death," and simply leaving without telling anyone.

I know a lot of lawyers and none of them who would abandon their adult kids for these "legalistic" reasons. RG might or might not have been aware of the estate implications of his pension; I couldn't tell you for sure what mine are and I am nearing retirement. The estate part doesn't matter because I will need the money to live on.

RFG had indicated he planned to retire 2001 and announced it in January 2004. It is impossible to believe he didn't know the estate implications. He had five years and was not an idiot.

Second, it is not a "legalistic" point to say that because a child is an adult, it is fine to abandon her and put her through horrible pain and suffering but she will get a few extra bucks sooner than if he retired. What kind of person thinks like this?

It could substantially more than "a few extra bucks." People that like this are called, well, estate planners. Many people realize that they won't be there one day. Possibly, RFG made that choice before the Grim Reaper did.

At what expense to her emotional and psychological well-being? What kind of father would think this way, as if his absence would not matter. My father died 20 years ago, and I still miss him. Every day. I know kids who long for their drug-addicted fathers who abandoned them at birth to show up for just one birthday. This reasoning only works if RG was entirely consumed by money and its importance, which of course can't be true because he walked away from everything he had in the bank and his pension. So this notion is too much of a contradiction to stand, in my view.

Most people that things like buy life insurance have the same underling motive. Why do you think people pay the premiums? They generally will never see a penny of it.

Further, why would you assume anything about LG's" emotional and psychological well-being?" It is not pleasant not knowing, but it won't be pleasant losing a parent at some point, and that would likely happen. Having her parents' marriage break up could cause "emotional and psychological" problems for LG, especially at 12 years old. That didn't prevent the marriage from breaking up.

A man who would abandon his child and his other family members cannot be considered a 'moderately good father." He would be at best a horrifically failed father and perhaps a soul-sucking narcissist.

First of all LG is no "child." She was 27 years old on the day he vanished, with a college degree, a fiancee, and life 2000 miles away. She was, and is, an independent adult. He could have very easily thought that he didn't need to be there for her and that she would be in a better financial position. Now, that's an argument for suicide as well, so I'll ask if would want to make the same comments about Roy Gricar?

And why would he care if she committed perjury?

Maybe he doesn't want her to go to jail; could that be a possibility?

And it isn't perjury unless she is under oath in court.

Ah, she had to, and did, testify in court for the hearing; we'll she phoned in her testimony. You might not have seen that is an eventuality, but some of us did. A moderately bright lawyer would, as well.

BTW, in 2005, LG was polygraphed and passed. I'm fairly sure LE didn't think she pushed RFG into the Susquehanna all the way from Seattle. Her arms are not 2000 miles long.

That's a startling statement, assuming as it does that all that would matter to RG is money and he assumed that all that would matter to his daughter would be money.

I've looked at some of his comments about his salary, and money was important to RFG. He might not have been an investor, but he was interested. The comments are public, in the press. Some of it were issues in his campaigns.

That is daughter would financially gain from his departure might not be the sole motivation, but it would 300,000+ reasons to consider not coming home on 4/15/05.

The argument for or against what? I don't know RG, and I don't know whether he walked away or not. Because I am an adult who has raised children who are not my own biologically,and because I have worked with kids and adults who were abandoned by parents at various ages, I am acutely aware of the psychological and emotional damage it does.

Again, we are not talking about "children" or being "abandon by parents." RFG was an adult and so was LG. I would agree that this would be different if LG 4, or 6, or even 17, but those days were long gone by the time we got to 2005.

And yes, I know texting was not available when RG was among us and FB was an infant, probably. That's why they are in parentheses.

FB was limited to colleges, and when RFG first ceased to be a part of LG's daily life, there was no e-mail outside of academia and the military.