PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[SeekingJana]

Snipped for brevity.



My understanding that this was pretty much PEF. That is just how she does things.

The dog was old and did die within the year.

This, then, strengthens my belief very strongly that he walked away.
She was likely obsessive and their lives were so intertwined, she would not have let go of him, no matter where he went, if she knew how to find him.

I'd bet all the money in my bank accounts that his leave-taking was because of her clinging and outright dumbness, IMO.
Sometimes, a relationship gets so smothering that one person with a strong mind and will HAS TO GET AWAY AND STAY AWAY.

Leaving just before he retired was his main way of throwing her off base without committing a crime ( leaving one shoe at a large body of water, cutting himself to bleed a bit in the parked Mini, just anything that pointed straight to foul play, which I understand is a crime to fake).

This is a jolt to me, actually but follows the above thought: I've never really thought about this much, but what if his plan was NOT to retire after all?
What if he was in talks with the FBI or other covert ops LE of that level and had to leave just like he did leave to make a clean break, did do so, and has had a great second career ( and possibly 3rd marriage , maybe with someone in the intelligence community who was pretty, very smart and feminine who is the mother of their son, perhaps)?

He had to be point by point legal with what movements he made so no crime was committed in the leave- taking!
We really don't talk about this scenario much, maybe because we don't understand what " covert ops" do, being covert, maybe because some posters think he was " too old".
He was not too old to be a division chief or another type of mostly desk work person. He was too old to jump across roofs to catch an international jewel thief.

He could not have gone on to do great things under a new ID ( and no photos of the real Ray) if he committed a crime during the " disappearing" process.
To become " Richard Smith" or " Jim Cunningham" or another false name which was processed to become his legal name? ( I used two deceased boyfriends' names as examples).

 

[minazoe]

Enigma man... his whole scene is just hard to make sense of...did Ray have a Jesuit education...? he seems like he was practically living in poverty..was he giving it away to charities? did he pay cash for his daughter's education? Ray is a sophisticated man so this
makes little sense..I mean you can piss your money away but there is no evidence of this... there is no spending....

I cannot figure Ray out...Surely PEF must have had some idea living with Ray...and certainly in his position his finances would be vetted and scrutinized to some degree...yes? no?

you don't make 6 figures and only spend 16k over several years for expenses outside of the household..and PEF had income..I would think he had a nest egg or a whole lot of nice furniture and property..like VERY NICE. did he have a summer place?

ok watching more...I cant ever give up on the RG case. ..what happened to Ray?

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Enigma man... his whole scene is just hard to make sense of...did Ray have a Jesuit education...? he seems like he was practically living in poverty..was he giving it away to charities? did he pay cash for his daughter's education? Ray is a sophisticated man so this
makes little sense..I mean you can piss your money away but there is no evidence of this... there is no spending....

I cannot figure Ray out...Surely PEF must have had some idea living with Ray...and certainly in his position his finances would be vetted and scrutinized to some degree...yes? no?

you don't make 6 figures and only spend 16k over several years for expenses outside of the household..and PEF had income..I would think he had a nest egg or a whole lot of nice furniture and property..like VERY NICE. did he have a summer place?

ok watching more...I cant ever give up on the RG case. ..what happened to Ray?

mOO

Not the Jesuits.

I don't know how much RFG contributed, but Lara's mother, BG, was a full professor and department head at PSU and probably was making more than RFG ever did. This is a rough estimate is that between RFG and BG, they were grossing more than $250,000 per year.

 

[SeekingJana]

Not the Jesuits.

I don't know how much RFG contributed, but Lara's mother, BG, was a full professor and department head at PSU and probably was making more than RFG ever did. This is a rough estimate is that between RFG and BG, they were grossing more than $250,000 per year.

This would have been sometime during the 90's, as well, right? Not sure how to adjust for today's currency rate if you didn't, but knowing you, you already did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This would have been sometime during the 90's, as well, right? Not sure how to adjust for today's currency rate if you didn't, but knowing you, you already did.

About 2004. It would be about $348,000 minimum.

BG, in addition being a full professor, was a department head, wrote textbooks in her field, and did consulting. My numbers are at the low end.

 

[SeekingJana]

About 2004. It would be about $348,000 minimum.

BG, in addition being a full professor, was a department head, wrote textbooks in her field, and did consulting. My numbers are at the low end.

She showed a lot of personal integrity when she showed up at the press conference where Lara and Patty asked Ray to " come home", I thought. I also admire her for her excellent advanced work in educational pursuits.
Both Ray and Barbara were outstanding together.

The other 2 women I know about, nope, he traded down. ( Except EG was " pretty", in a way, when they first married). Beauty fades, as hers did, but those who are high achievers like B and Ray maintain that standard.

 

[minazoe]

did he invest with Bernie or something? nothing makes sense... Ray had secrets. mOO

 

[minazoe]

do you really feel like PEF was so clingy Ray ran away from home? when you say Ray traded down, what do you mean?

Do we know anything about PEF's background? what is her family like? is she so clingy she would put an end to Ray rather than lose him? did he get rid of that laptop because he suspected maybe PEF had been digging around? was he caught at something?

was Ray scared of PEF?

I can't help it..I have always suspected PEF. ( to me, she is suspicious). mOO

 

[SeekingJana]

do you really feel like PEF was so clingy Ray ran away from home? when you say Ray traded down, what do you mean?

Do we know anything about PEF's background? what is her family like? is she so clingy she would put an end to Ray rather than lose him? did he get rid of that laptop because he suspected maybe PEF had been digging around? was he caught at something?

was Ray scared of PEF?

I can't help it..I have always suspected PEF. ( to me, she is suspicious). mOO

NO, I didn't say Patty was so clingy that Ray ran away.
I said their lives were so intertwined, and she was insecure and clinging that he left surreptitiously.

I've done it, a lot of people have. If you know you're with a borderline " Stalker for LOVE" then you leave silently and quickly if you are extremely prepared and smart.
You can't leave a trail.
I have done it, and would do it tomorrow to go to a happier situation.
It all depends on the personalities and intellects of the people involved, and the ability to make plans covertly.

I think Patty was not smart at all. Ray got her the job at the CCCH. She inherited her old house. He bought a car for her ( the Mini Cooper).
I saw photos of her house when she had it listed on Realtor.com and IMO, both the contents and the old house should have been a controlled burn by the Bellefonte FD. She had a very low standard of living after Ray left. I cannot address what their standard of living might have been as a cohabitating couple, but I don't think he was that into her at any time.

My feeling is that she wormed her way into his life via her family connections and having mutual friends at the court house. He was not committed to her- he'd not been divorced long from Emma when he took up with Patty.

All I can really figure is that she was a good cook and good at doing laundry. Things girls learn at age 10-12. She seemed about that immature to me.

" A note with hearts" about the old dog is a good example, plus the "call me if you aren't coming in to work"... Not her business because their arrangement, while tawdry in my belief system, was extremely tenuous. NO commitments existed except maybe in Patty's mind. His life, his business.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

do you really feel like PEF was so clingy Ray ran away from home? when you say Ray traded down, what do you mean?

Do we know anything about PEF's background? what is her family like? is she so clingy she would put an end to Ray rather than lose him? did he get rid of that laptop because he suspected maybe PEF had been digging around? was he caught at something?

was Ray scared of PEF?

I can't help it..I have always suspected PEF. ( to me, she is suspicious). mOO

BG has a Ph D and was a full professor. She taught internationally, and lived in fairly large cities.

PEF had a bachelor's and was a probation officer. She lived not only is the same town, but the same house, since birth. When she went away to school, she went 11 miles down the road. She was very insular and very tied into Bellefonte.

The Fornicola family is well established in Bellefonte. Here uncle, Gino, was Mayor of Bellefonte along with being prominent business owner; he was known as "Mr. Bellefonte" and led the redevelopment of the town. He was then elected County Treasurer; after he died, his son was elected. 7-10 members of the family are/were PSU alumni; in a prior generation, one was a star of the PSU wrestling team.

PEF's first husband was also a probation officer and the son of a judge in another county. The ex is alive and well.

 

[minazoe]

He bought her that car that she didn't drive...paying cash. ( this seems weird to me and a way for PEF to secure money/property out of the relationship.

so you think the arrangement was tawdry? why? because they weren't married?

so Ray got her a job and bought her a car...he lived in her house? is this right? no remodeling, no new furniture...no big investments.

so what if he didn't want to marry her but he bought her a car to soothe the situation?

did she have enough money to put a hit on Ray? was he trying to get out of the relationship?
was her family unhappy with her arrangement? would she kill him rather than be publicly humiliated and broken up with at her place of work? does she have a brother or protective family member who might hurt Ray?

a note with hearts about the dog seems rather normal to me..but what doesn't seem normal is so many notes around one specific day..notes that all seem to indemnify PEF..mOO

 

[minazoe]

ugh I hate myself for suspecting poor Patty...but I have always suspected her..just something not right...and I'm probably wrong...but it just niggles at me...could Patty be a bunny boiler?

I imagine they cleared the niece of Mayor Gino rather quickly.

mOO

 

[SeekingJana]

ugh I hate myself for suspecting poor Patty...but I have always suspected her..just something not right...and I'm probably wrong...but it just niggles at me...could Patty be a bunny boiler?

I imagine they cleared the niece of Mayor Gino rather quickly.

mOO

Well, IF Patty had been smart enough, I might consider that Ray's dead.
But, as J just posted, she lived her life in Bellefonte only, a very closed off kind of " one horse town" girl. She had no exposure to international culture, to travel, the finer things in life.

Her HAIR is cut exactly like Barbara Grey's was when Ray went missing and they held a press conference. They are both short and thin, to the point that they look androgynous, likely on purpose.
I thought Barbara and Patty were sisters, and it's such an odd look for a female ( to me) that it was doubly startling.
As J has said " Ray definitely had a type" physically. J likely has the photo in photo storage. I don't.
It is in the public domain, one reason I didn't save a copy.

Barbara is super smart, and speaks multiple languages fluently. She and Ray adopted Lara and raised her together. They had deep family bonds because they were married and had a child that's theirs together.

AFAIK, there's no rhyme or reason as to why Ray chose Patty except that she looks like his ex- wife's sister, IMO. I'm deadly serious.

I hope J can post the photo which shows them together.
I don't know if you are M or F, but I think women see the " sisters from different mothers" much more easily than men do.

Anyway, I don't think Ray died by any means. Patti couldn't kill a mouse with a mouse trap. She's weird, to me, from the early documentaries about Ray where she spoke like theirs was the great love of the 21st century but weren't making plans to marry or even commit to each other. Her harmless, childish demeanor, her " lovey dovey" delusions and 20 minutes of fame in the media do not make her a killer. They make her a sad character out of a Bronte' novel, only she wasn't truly a " spinster", having been married and divorced.

I do think Ray was going to leave, and did leave, but as I said above, I believe he joined a higher level of criminal justice secretly with their expert help to cap off his life's work. Maybe in the US, maybe outside the country where he had some family ties and was really needed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Gino was dead by 2005.

Respectfully snipped:

He bought her that car that she didn't drive...paying cash. ( this seems weird to me and a way for PEF to secure money/property out of the relationship.

so you think the arrangement was tawdry? why? because they weren't married?

so Ray got her a job and bought her a car...he lived in her house? is this right? no remodeling, no new furniture...no big investments.

This is incorrect. PEF had a job before she became involved with RFG. RFG did pay on her mortgage.

a note with hearts about the dog seems rather normal to me..but what doesn't seem normal is so many notes around one specific day..notes that all seem to indemnify PEF..mOO

As far as I know, that is the only note. It doesn't indemnify PEF as much witnesses seeing RFG heading toward Centre Hall, turning on 195, pulling in outside of the Packwood House, and late heading to the SoS, and parking Mini across the SoS.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a photo of them together. I thought that BG was PEF's aunt or mother when I saw that photo.

 

[SeekingJana]

Here is a photo of them together. I thought that BG was PEF's aunt or mother when I saw that photo.

Come here and pick me up out of the floor. ROFLOL as usual about that pic. I could not have picked out two more similar " distinctive looking" women not believed to be relatives if I searched for a year!!

It was truly an epic moment to see the ex and the gf staring at each other like " Huh?". Doubly happy you saw it too.

BTW, a minor point, perhaps, but for most of the time they were living together, didn't Ray and Patty take lunch breaks together and didn't she spend a great deal of time in his office area? I keep thinking that he got her a job she wanted that was " closer to him".
Am I wrong?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Come here and pick me up out of the floor. ROFLOL as usual about that pic. I could not have picked out two more similar " distinctive looking" women not believed to be relatives if I searched for a year!!

It was truly an epic moment to see the ex and the gf staring at each other like " Huh?". Doubly happy you saw it too.

BTW, a minor point, perhaps, but for most of the time they were living together, didn't Ray and Patty take lunch breaks together and didn't she spend a great deal of time in his office area? I keep thinking that he got her a job she wanted that was " closer to him".
Am I wrong?

I actually think she was in the office before they started dating. She was planning to retire with RFG. She was a Witness/Victim Advocate and took a demotion to stay on as clerk.

 

[minazoe]

bizzarro...for a ladies man these gals seem a bit shall I say...masculine? ...was PEF trying to emulate Barbara?

god this is going down the weirdo path....lolz...I mean that picture says a lot to me...like not nice things...and I am going straight to you know where in a hand basket...

you know short hair can be cute...but in this case...uh not so much...mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

bizzarro...for a ladies man these gals seem a bit shall I say...masculine? ...was PEF trying to emulate Barbara?

god this is going down the weirdo path....lolz...I mean that picture says a lot to me...like not nice things...and I am going straight to you know where in a hand basket...

you know short hair can be cute...but in this case...uh not so much...mOO

I doubt it that it is emulation. That is still what she looks like.

Without getting into too much detail, I know that PEF and RFG had something beyond a platonic relationship.
(I will point out that it is possible for a man and a woman to live together without anything beyond a platonic relationship.)

 

[SeekingJana]

I actually think she was in the office before they started dating. She was planning to retire with RFG. She was a Witness/Victim Advocate and took a demotion to stay on as clerk.

Darlin' J, has it occurred to you that she took a demotion to be close to Ray, as in working in the same ( or adjacent) building?