PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[SeekingJana]

Even without worrying about a ticket, it would be impossible to go through Bellefonte at high enough speeds to make it, effectively, ten miles in nine minutes.

Assume that RFG is the one who spoke on the phone at 11:03 AM; assume that it is precisely at 11:03:00. He hangs up, at precisely 11:03:13 AM, leaves the house, locking the door behind him, and runs to an unlocked Mini, gets in and starts the engine. That would still take some time, even if he running. He still has to put the car in gear and it will take a second to get the Mini up to full speed.

After he gets the Mini up to full, in order to get out of Bellefonte, RFG would have to make a series 90 degree turns. Most of the blocks are rectangular. A stunt driver would have extreme difficulty doing that, without wreaking the car at a speed of greater than 60 MPH.

Now, there is a witness that saw RFG turning onto Route 192 in Centre Hall. She was a county worker that recognized him, and she had either just used an ATM or had purchased something just before; she had a timestamped receipt. The siting was between 11:30 AM and 11:35 AM. So, for RFG to have placed the 11:12 AM call to PEF from Route 192, he would have to driven to Route 192, made the call, then turned around, driven back to Centre Hall, turned around again and turned onto 192 between 11:30 and 11:35.

So we have two possibilities. A. RFG drove impossibly fast to get to Route 192, called PEF at 11:12 AM, and then turned around twice so he could be spotted by the witness at 11:30-11:35 turning back onto 192; of course, he had no way of knowing the witness would be there. B. RFG took the call at 11:03 AM the house, and well before reaching Center Hall, called PEF at 11:12 AM, reached Centre Hall, and was seen by the witness turning onto Route 192at between 11:30 and 11:35 AM. Occam's razor says B, and A might be an impossibility.

OK, leave the speed alone. What if Patty's lied about things that would humiliate her even worse, or maybe introduce a criminal aspect?

 

[Quiet Time]

Ok...what all is going on here..lol

Are you saying that Patty knew RG was leaving/disappearing?

I do think he bought that little car knowing he would be leaving it for Patty when he disappeared......

jmo

 

[J. J. in Phila]

OK, leave the speed alone. What if Patty's lied about things that would humiliate her even worse, or maybe introduce a criminal aspect?

It would not make it worse. Nobody knew when RFG turned onto Route 192 until Monday, when the witness talked to the police. As far as PEF knew, RFG was on Route 192 when he made the call.

If it was a criminal aspect, why would she lie about the location? There are three way (with various permutations) to Lewisburg. I-80, Route 45, and Route 192. If she said, "He said he was heading toward Lewisburg," and didn't give a route, LE would have to focus on all three routes. While an accident would have been likely seen on the well traveled and well patrolled I-80, it might not have been spotted on the other two. It gives LE two routes to search primarily. That would have delayed the time to finding the Mini, especially if it was on a side street in Lewisburg.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok...what all is going on here..lol

Are you saying that Patty knew RG was leaving/disappearing?

I do think he bought that little car knowing he would be leaving it for Patty when he disappeared......

jmo

I'm not. She passed a polygraph, and, as indicated above, could have come up with something that would have delayed finding the Mini even more.

 

[SeekingJana]

Ok...what all is going on here..lol

Are you saying that Patty knew RG was leaving/disappearing?

I do think he bought that little car knowing he would be leaving it for Patty when he disappeared......

jmo

No, it's just that Patty is the only source for what Ray said on the cell phone call to the switchboard around 11 AM or so. He also seemed surprised that she answered the phone, but why?
Just little nit picky things that have no answer but come to mind from time to time. She was " the person closest to him", after all.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No, it's just that Patty is the only source for what Ray said on the cell phone call to the switchboard around 11 AM or so. He also seemed surprised that she answered the phone, but why?
Just little nit picky things that have no answer but come to mind from time to time. She was " the person closest to him", after all.

PEF was not on "phone duty" that morning. She was covering for another worker that is the restroom. That could be the reason for RFG sounding surprised.

There are several other possibilities. The call went through the switchboard. RFG may not heard it was transferred to the office and was surprised to hear anyone on the other end. PEF could have misread RFG's reaction.

As for the call, first, we know it happened, and when. We know it's length, one minute. We also know that PEF did not try to call him until 6:58 PM.

Here is the statement to LE about the call. It is part of her statement overall, but I am just including the reference to the call:

"He [RFG] called the office around 11:30am [sic] and I happened to answer the phone. He seemed surprised that I answered the phone. He said he was on [Route] 192 and wouldn't make it home to let Honey out and ask if I could. I said yes. He said, "I love you" and I said, "I love you, too." "

For the sake of argument, assume that PEF was not being truthful. Why lie about where the Mini Cooper was. It would make sense for someone to delay the finding of the Mini Cooper. Why not just tell the police that **Ray said he was out driving.** Suddenly, the police are not looking at Route 192 or Lewisburg. They are figuring out how far RFG could drive the Mini in 12-16 hours.

We do know that RFG did turn onto Route 192 about 18-23 minutes after making the call and it appears he was at the house about 9 minutes or less before making the call.

 

[minazoe]

"We do know that RFG did turn onto Route 192 about 18-23 minutes after making the call and it appears he was at the house about 9 minutes or less before making the call."

JJ.... doesn't this seem really shady to you? mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"We do know that RFG did turn onto Route 192 about 18-23 minutes after making the call and it appears he was at the house about 9 minutes or less before making the call."

JJ.... doesn't this seem really shady to you? mOO

Yes, and no.

At best, RFG was being a bit, but not very, selfish. He could have stayed home another hour and let Honey. He might have wanted to take some time to be by himself and go off on his pleasure drive. He gives PEF the impression that he's further from home than he is. This could be all that it is. Had he returned nobody would know about it.

The only thing that we can say about it is that it isn't PEF trying to hide what happened. It does look like RFG trying to hide exactly where he was.

Conversely, it could be exceptionally shady. It could have been a tip off that some final arrangement was being made for his departure. It could have been the last piece of news that sent RFG into a suicidal spin. It could be a lover (in the Courthouse) telling him that she will be free to be in Lewisburg. It could have been somebody relaying information, even unwittingly, about a clandestine meeting.

There are a lot of "coulds" in the three paragraphs above.

 

[Quiet Time]

No, it's just that Patty is the only source for what Ray said on the cell phone call to the switchboard around 11 AM or so. He also seemed surprised that she answered the phone, but why?
Just little nit picky things that have no answer but come to mind from time to time. She was " the person closest to him", after all.

Ok...I understand.
thx.

 

[minazoe]

question is, was JJ even trying to reach PF/ or someone else? someone who maybe wasn't taking his calls so he tried going through the switchboard and got busted by PF..

also we only have PF's version of the switchboard call..I can't stop having problems with the whole thing...because of little slippages of time and people not being able to verify when or how or who and its all just enough to muddy the water..

and the water is muddy.

timeline slippage
mystery woman
car moving
ciggy ash
hard drive
metallic car
switch board call
weird sightings
the bare bones estate
no body


This is my opinion ..

Ray could pull down high end rich girls , really even at his age he would be a catch
because he was somewhat good looking , brilliant and well positioned. But here we see him in this odd pairing, in what is practically a shack in terms of what he could afford in life.

And this I get..he could have a jesuit education etc..he can be giving money to charities instead of decor items, etc...okay...sure...but then lets find out why his coffers were so empty..

people say he was a ladies man..do they mean a cheater?

cheating has a way of working out badly for many people who test the wrong
partner.

all mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

question is, was JJ even trying to reach PF/ or someone else? someone who maybe wasn't taking his calls so he tried going through the switchboard and got busted by PF..

I've never tried to reach PEF. LOL.

also we only have PF's version of the switchboard call..I can't stop having problems with the whole thing...because of little slippages of time and people not being able to verify when or how or who and its all just enough to muddy the water..

and the water is muddy.

I don't agree that there was any time slippage. There is verification of the call was received at the house (11:03), when RFG called the Courthouse (11:12) and when the witness saw RFG turning onto Route 192 (11:30-11:35). We don't have third party verification of what was said in the call, but PEF's version does not lead LE away from where the Mini was found or from the way the witness says she saw RFG going to Lewisburg.

As for RFG cheating, it is certainly possible, but we can't say definitely one way or another. Certainly, he was involved with women when he was not in a relationship.

 

[minazoe]

I meant Ray LOLZ

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I took a look at Lewisburg again. More of the area has been cut back on the other side of the river. It is, slightly less likely that RFG could have crossed the river and killed himself.

Odds, as of today are:

Walkaway: 65%
Suicide: 14%
Homicide: 20%
Something Else: 1%

 

[minazoe]

you say the forested area where his body could have been hidden was cut back and Ray was not found, right?

didn't we have footage of ray in the store near the unidentified woman?

wife of a friend? wife of a colleague? I am in no way trying to downgrade the moral content of such an upstanding guy...but something crazy was going on..I don't get how people don't see this.

like you said maybe he wasn't that into pf..

today I feel like it was a bad break up...there is an untold secret and no one came forward...
so some kind of bad break up or a jealous husband...someone who is possibly a psychopath..
I feel like Ray was despondent and in turmoil and then went through some actions away from home to destroy any evidence of it.

I dont see him killing himself just because of a mood or retirement. I don't see the Sandusky angle...the timing is too off..between one old case and what ensued later..you know what I mean? Sandusky got off, how much of a threat was he under at the time Ray went missing?

feels like a bad romance.

maybe ray would say bs..there was no romance, no anything.

could ray have had undocumented mania? because it looks and feels like mania too...
how convenient.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just think that in the instant, RFG, at best, didn't want to be bothered taking the dog out. He could have just as easily been going to a clandestine meeting.

Yes, I'm referring to the wooded areas across the river from Lewisburg. On the north side, there gaps where you can look through from Route 45 to Old Route 45; it use to be a solid line of trees. Some woodlots are now fields with crops. If looks like there may be new restaurant south of May's Drive-in.

 

[SeekingJana]

I took a look at Lewisburg again. More of the area has been cut back on the other side of the river. It is, slightly less likely that RFG could have crossed the river and killed himself.

Odds, as of today are:

Walkaway: 65%
Suicide: 14%
Homicide: 20%
Something Else: 1%

You added a new category: " Something else". Would that be like a natural death concealed by another person?

A Casual Rebuttal

He'd driven some miles. He'd had time to think, which statistically makes a person who's having impulsive suicide thoughts slow down and change course.
I use the term impulsive because he apparently didn't take any weapons or rope for a fast death.

I reject drowning as a COD.
Drowning in waist to chest high water when you're a poor swimmer would be stupid and probably impossible, as the human reflexes to struggle, to stay afloat, to breathe would kick in, AND all he or any other nearly non- swimmer had to do was touch the bottom of the riverbed and walk back to the river's edge! This is SO not true for the way people drown. I reject it utterly, and not knowing if you are a good swimmer, believe you will reject it as well if you can and do swim. Even a non-swimmer can float on his or her back all day long and moving the arms towards and away from the body will get the floater to the shore. People figure it out really quickly.

Also, I've said it 101 times, but if someone is depressed and suicidal, they don't GO SHOPPING almost 50 miles from " home'. The depressed person will find their place of solitude and comfort in their own home and get over the blues, or a friend or family member will get them to mental health care, or if ignored, they might progress in the depression to suicidal ideation.

Unless they are Lupe Velez, the depressed and suicidal sad person will take an OD of medication, or string a rope up from the attic rafters, or IDK, stick their head in the gas oven, if gas is present. It will be the easiest and least painful method possible and they will likely not be dressed for a casual outing, but in PJs, a robe, not worried about appearance. This is human nature, and if I didn't know, I wouldn't say how stupid it would be to consider a pleasant drive to a PLACE Ray liked, the SoS, to kill himself nearby. And, " nearby" meaning exactly " where"?

It would be like me taking off for Disney World to walk around in my ears for the day, playing on the rides, dining and refreshing during the day, then killing myself in my parked rental car with a knife, pills, almost anything undetectable from the exterior of the car. Actually, just to SIT in the car for an hour would possibly cause hyperthermia to the point of death, ha ha. I LOVE Disney World but 7th circle of hell heat and humidity. Somewhere along the timeline of that day, I'd have decided I wanted to live to come back to Disney! Also, there's the energy factor again. Suicidal people do not have the energy to go to the corner store, much less out of town.

There's absolutely no evidence pointing to suicide or murder or this case likely would have had a finite ending or at least be a " Whodunnit?" since April 15, 2005.

It's only when " Walkaway" is added that the case begins to make complete sense. If Ray died at his hands or the hands of some hostile faction, then I apologize to those left behind who loved him as their father or grandfather, although never meeting, I guess. I don't have blinders on, but nothing else makes sense with the scant facts available.

What we know is that he was mobile and communicative until he reached Lewisburg, was seen normally mobile in Lewisburg at several places including a restaurant and an open park, not having any visible distress, and he did spend time in the SoS, which may also have been the rendezvous designation for a helper to get out of Lewisburg. Possibly the MW, or possibly she was the decoy. We don't know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I should said Foul Play instead of homicide. That is inclusive of abuse of corpse and would include disposing of a body that died of accidental or natural causes. It is a criminal act involving RFG's death, though not necessarily homicide.

Something Else are things like falling into the water and drowning, having a coronary, falling, hitting his head and having amnesia, some sort of dissociative condition where he wondered away.

As to drowning, it is possible to drown in a mud puddle, so it is possible to drown in a high, cold, fast moving river. RFG could have jumped from the bridge, hit the water in such a way that he was incapacitated, and drowned. He could have suffered hypothermia as well, cramped up and drowned. That does not explain the absence of the body.

In terms of suicide, drowning would not be the only method. He could purchased a pocket knife at some point, gone into the woods and slit his wrists. He could have purchased a bottle of vodka and over the counter sleeping pills, gone into the woods, consumed both and died on a fairly cold night. That does not explain the absence of the body, especially in the areas where wooded areas have been cleared.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There were some interesting things in the contents of the of RK's document download, involving Penn State.

1. On Friday, 4/8/05, RFG's calendar lists "PSU-mtg 1:30."

2. On Tuesday, 4/12/05, an abstract of his e-mail shows that he "left for PSU." The same day shows that he called a campus number (I recognize the prefix) at 1:54 PM and spoke for a minute on his cell phone. At 1:56 PM, he got a call on his cell phone from an unknown number; he call lasted for one minute.

Ironically, though RK's latest podcast speculated on a Sandusky connection, she did not mention these.

Keep several things in mind, however.

1. PSU campus is a venue for conferences. Also, at times, local leaders will be invited to speak in classes.

2. RFG's ex-wife was a full professor at Penn State.

3. There are crimes that occur under PSU's jurisdiction that are not related to Sandusky.

It is not conclusive, by any means, but it is interesting.

 

[minazoe]

how would murdering the prosecutor help Sandusky? a new prosecutor would inherit the caseload...doesn't seem too logical unless you go along with the idea that Ray was going rogue and was doing his own investigation and surveillance including interviewing victims...even so, then why would he want to destroy his hard drive?

if he so wanted Sandusky persecuted? why would Ray tell PFG where he was going?

just so she could find that car?
he was seen all over the place..he left a trail..he was even seen disposing of the hard drive..

hmpf.

 

[minazoe]

I'll say it again..it does remind me a little bit of the case of John Wheeler..

did they ever search the landfill for Ray?

mOO