PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

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  • #361
Snipped for emphasis.

how would murdering the prosecutor help Sandusky? a new prosecutor would inherit the caseload...doesn't seem too logical unless you go along with the idea that Ray was going rogue and was doing his own investigation and surveillance including interviewing victims...even so, then why would he want to destroy his hard drive?

He wouldn't. He would have a copy of the case file. He kept a copy of recommendation letter for Petito from about 1990 in his desk. That Sandusky report wasn't in the office.
 
  • #362
What landfill?
 
  • #363
The podcast is getting increasingly ridiculous. She's claiming that only "the government" could have "disappeared him"

LOL. When did "the government" ever kill someone and hide the body where no one could find it? The are plenty of ordinary murderers who managed to hide a body, I'm not sure why she thinks only "the government" could do that
 
  • #364
RG's odd and out-of-character behavior that day is what leads me away from suspecting foul play. I wonder what LE thinks all these years later?
 
  • #365
RG's odd and out-of-character behavior that day is what leads me away from suspecting foul play. I wonder what LE thinks all these years later?


Today, I don't know. The former BPD chief, Dixon has said that he thought it suicide. One former DA, Madeira, said walkaway. The former DA, Parks-Miller, said "homicide is the least likely," though she backed off a bit later.

While I thing there is more evidence for walkaway, 65% is not enough for me to say, "Case closed! Everybody go home."
 
  • #366
You added a new category: " Something else". Would that be like a natural death concealed by another person?

A Casual Rebuttal

He'd driven some miles. He'd had time to think, which statistically makes a person who's having impulsive suicide thoughts slow down and change course.
I use the term impulsive because he apparently didn't take any weapons or rope for a fast death.

I reject drowning as a COD.
Drowning in waist to chest high water when you're a poor swimmer would be stupid and probably impossible, as the human reflexes to struggle, to stay afloat, to breathe would kick in, AND all he or any other nearly non- swimmer had to do was touch the bottom of the riverbed and walk back to the river's edge! This is SO not true for the way people drown. I reject it utterly, and not knowing if you are a good swimmer, believe you will reject it as well if you can and do swim. Even a non-swimmer can float on his or her back all day long and moving the arms towards and away from the body will get the floater to the shore. People figure it out really quickly. :)

Also, I've said it 101 times, but if someone is depressed and suicidal, they don't GO SHOPPING almost 50 miles from " home'. The depressed person will find their place of solitude and comfort in their own home and get over the blues, or a friend or family member will get them to mental health care, or if ignored, they might progress in the depression to suicidal ideation.

Unless they are Lupe Velez, the depressed and suicidal sad person will take an OD of medication, or string a rope up from the attic rafters, or IDK, stick their head in the gas oven, if gas is present. It will be the easiest and least painful method possible and they will likely not be dressed for a casual outing, but in PJs, a robe, not worried about appearance. This is human nature, and if I didn't know, I wouldn't say how stupid it would be to consider a pleasant drive to a PLACE Ray liked, the SoS, to kill himself nearby. And, " nearby" meaning exactly " where"?

It would be like me taking off for Disney World to walk around in my ears for the day, playing on the rides, dining and refreshing during the day, then killing myself in my parked rental car with a knife, pills, almost anything undetectable from the exterior of the car. Actually, just to SIT in the car for an hour would possibly cause hyperthermia to the point of death, ha ha. I LOVE Disney World but 7th circle of hell heat and humidity. Somewhere along the timeline of that day, I'd have decided I wanted to live to come back to Disney! Also, there's the energy factor again. Suicidal people do not have the energy to go to the corner store, much less out of town.

There's absolutely no evidence pointing to suicide or murder or this case likely would have had a finite ending or at least be a " Whodunnit?" since April 15, 2005.

It's only when " Walkaway" is added that the case begins to make complete sense. If Ray died at his hands or the hands of some hostile faction, then I apologize to those left behind who loved him as their father or grandfather, although never meeting, I guess. I don't have blinders on, but nothing else makes sense with the scant facts available.

What we know is that he was mobile and communicative until he reached Lewisburg, was seen normally mobile in Lewisburg at several places including a restaurant and an open park, not having any visible distress, and he did spend time in the SoS, which may also have been the rendezvous designation for a helper to get out of Lewisburg. Possibly the MW, or possibly she was the decoy. We don't know.

While I don't necessarily feel strongly that RG committed suicide, there are a lot of things in your posts which you say are absolutes that are not necessarily true. A lot of suicidal and depressed people do a lot of ordinary things before committing suicide. Not all suicidal people commit suicide at home; some choose a favorite wooded area to spare their families from the trauma of finding their bodies. And perhaps there is some sort of seeking solace moment that occurs in nature. And some people choose a method of suicide that you and I, in our logical and not suicidal state of mind, would never dream of, one of which includes drowning. There have been several suicides which involve a person simply walking into a relatively shallow body of water to drown. Another is setting themselves on fire! it's not super common but it's not unheard of either. My point here is simply to say that suicide is irrational, and you cannot expect there always to be logical actions preceding it, and trying to say someone could be or not suicidal based on their actions is probably not an absolute thing.

I have to say, I have been leaning stronger and stronger towards walkaway based on information that has come out more recently.
 
  • #367
There have been several suicides which involve a person simply walking into a relatively shallow body of water to drown. Another is setting themselves on fire! it's not super common but it's not unheard of either. My point here is simply to say that suicide is irrational, and you cannot expect there always to be logical actions preceding it, and trying to say someone could be or not suicidal based on their actions is probably not an absolute thing.

I have to say, I have been leaning stronger and stronger towards walkaway based on information that has come out more recently.

Edited to add: I snipped this because the Mods want us to do so.

I'm not going to make this personal as there is no reason to insinuate anything about another poster or their beliefs if they are sincere. I was sincere. The human body has reflexes which prevent drowning in many situations. They are easy to find on the Internet if a person wants to know why most non-swimmers don't drown in a pool, bathtub or other body of water.

Medically speaking, a person can drown in a bowl of soup. Maybe Ray had the soup du jour at Packwood House and drowned in the bisque.
The final question is still the same- " Where did the body go"?

I have cared about what happened to Ray Gricar since Thread 1 of his Missing discussion. If it can happen on this planet, I've considered that happenstance as a possibility, weighed the probability with my 40 years of observing and caring for the human mind and body as an ICU R.N, then a Behavioral Psychologist at the Dr. level of study and practice, and used common sense and science as my guide.
 
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  • #368
they never re-opened this case, they never released new info and there was no forensic accounting of Ray's money.

this is going to sound bad..but I have this weird feeling that Ray, for whatever reason was in a personal drama with PEF.. I feel like he was trying to avoid her when he went through the switchboard.

so now PEF knows where he's going....did Ray move his car because he didn't want to be found? was he afraid of people that might act on PEF's behalf ?

He would not marry her and buying her that car seems like he would be able to get out more easily by giving her a car etc in exchange for her years in the relationship.
She was the last person to talk to Ray..Ray kinda lied about his whereabouts supposedly and also supposedly said I love you or something...I don't buy this story. the metallic car, the ash,
the woman, etc...all of these things are suspect in my mind and where is Ray's money????

maybe Ray was gonna walk out and leave PEF with basically nothing and she wasn't liking that. Ray was super attractive and gave her a career and an identity..a break up would be publicly humiliating..

Ray definitely had some major BS going on and I think the case should be completely re-opened...let's get to the bottom of this.

mOO
 
  • #369
also I know many consider her a victim, but was she questioned as to Rays financial situation? the man was seriously broke for someone with such a high profile career and a two income household.

mOO
 
  • #370
side note..I have known some covert narcissists in my time , ones that don't wear make up or flattering hairstyles..ones that play shy and unassuming behind their glasses and measured voices ..

also as a side..

perhaps Ray sensed someone had looked at his computer or was going to find out about something extra curricular...maybe he sensed that PEF may out something on that computer
and he actually didn't know the hounds were already upon him.

the other party may not ever come forward out of fear. would you? I'm sure you think I'm whack for saying this..but Ive known some old school political families in my time and they are freaking connected...they just are and some have kids that are BAD EGGS, really bad..

they grow up thinking they have that extraness..that protection..permission...even to be violent and definitely to have revenge on perceived enemies or those that betray..

mOO
 
  • #371
@minazoe
I am building upon your last post, in a way.

I have known people who were in a profession or occupation which gave them more knowledge in a field than others have. Let's go with " Criminology".

Ray had YEARS of law school, then practice as an ADA, then D.A. to learn about the actions of criminals, how people become victims, how to avoid being a victim, and how to avoid becoming a target of the special type of angry former court defendant whom his office or he personally had prosecuted.

I have wondered so many times if his years of experience either 1) Gave him a huge advantage if he did decide to disappear. Or 2) Maybe gave a false sense of security when out and about. Maybe not thinking he'd ever been " hard" on a criminal in his courts.

Most of the time, I believe both #1 and #2 were probably parts of his thinking and belief system outside his office.

If he was a victim of crime, apparently no one saw or heard any semblance of disorder in Lewisburg.
If he left voluntarily, I'm not a bit surprised no one has ever had a clue as to where he went or anything else ( except J. and Tracker did find great financial info).

Did you hear about the jar of flowers left outdoors somewhere in the park, near where he'd likely have been at some point? I've never known if the story is true, and if the flowers could have anything to do with him or some couple picking wildflowers in love, that sort of thing.
 
  • #372
no I never heard of a jar of flowers. I don't trust the status of this case because I don't trust the way it was investigated... the case should be reopened with a new investigation from square one. Give it a lot of media attention and ask people to come forward. Too many pieces are missing or unaccounted.

mOO
 
  • #373
I'll add a small piece, that I have hinted it, but never said directly.

One of the people that RFG talked to about how to get rid of material on the laptop was Deborah Lux, the chief public defender. When I have spoken about shedding more light on the case, it about her that I was referring. "Lux" is Latin for "light." Some of you had figured it out. :)

Talking to the public defender about how to get rid of the data on the laptop totally precludes that this request might have been case related.
 
  • #374
Snipped for brevity.

this is going to sound bad..but I have this weird feeling that Ray, for whatever reason was in a personal drama with PEF.. I feel like he was trying to avoid her when he went through the switchboard.

so now PEF knows where he's going....did Ray move his car because he didn't want to be found? was he afraid of people that might act on PEF's behalf ?

All calls to the office went through the switchboard at the Courthouse. That would not be unusual. If PEF had not answered, he could have left a message.

That 11:03 AM call to the house phone is interesting and does open the possibility that he was responding to it. I would be very interested in what calls came into the Courthouse after the 11:03 AM call. Where their any from RFG's potential route or from the Lewisburg area?
 
  • #375
isn't it true that 90 percent of the time (or something like this) someone goes missing or is murdered ..it's someone close to that individual that is the cause? I wonder if any of the investigators had any nagging feelings about this case..mOO
 
  • #376
isn't it true that 90 percent of the time (or something like this) someone goes missing or is murdered ..it's someone close to that individual that is the cause? I wonder if any of the investigators had any nagging feelings about this case..mOO

No, in terms of missing person cases. Most missing persons cases are voluntary.
 
  • #377
Talking to the public defender about how to get rid of the data on the laptop totally precludes that this request might have been case related.

Snipped for space

Thanks for shedding your light on this tidbit, finally.

Agree that it changes perspective entirely re personal vs. professional info on the HD of the laptop, but for me, it emphasizes how he apparently thought long and hard about the topic since we have been told it was brought up with at least part of his staffers.

It's one of the few walkaway pieces that seem, in retrospect, like he was talking about a part of his plans rather casually and often, instead of just thinking about them . That's the main takeaway for me- that he mentioned a computer HD so often. It's really very childish in tone to me that an adult his age couldn't just go do it instead of obsessing about it, then apparently leaving the task undone until the very last moment.

Also, the fact that he didn't wipe his home desk PC HD with a software program, leaving searches available on that exact subject. It always makes me giggle that he was so focused, yet missed the search history on at least one computer.
 
  • #378
seriously who does this walk away thing? In my whole life I have never known anyone out of a gazzilion people who have vanished period..let alone..walked away..to where? He had a daughter and an esteemed career with what should have been a fab retirement. He was still very good looking and would have been grown up enough to end his relationship with PF like an adult.

only a freaking sadist would just disappear off the planet like to go to Slovenia.
Someone who has many friends. Why would he need to lie and dissapear to accomplish this? It makes no sense..

no no, something was going on, no one knew about it except those involved.something was definitely wrong and everybody needs a new interview..the only way I will accept a walk away is if Ray was in harms way and took off to protect his family. Or if he had a secret life..? why would it have to be secret? Ray didn't need a secret life.. he wasn't even married..

he absolutely could have been cheating..and if the other woman was married it is possible she will never speak of it....and he could be dead as a result of that.

I do still get that mania vibe though..if he lost it and is a hobo somewhere that would be crazy.
If Ray was losing it, he could have called a college friend , frat brother or even childhood friend
to pick him up in Lewisberg and drop him in Manhattan.. Mental illness can run in families.

mOO
 
  • #379
Many people do. I've cited two cases. Jay Carsey a fairly well regarded community college president: Jay Carsey - Wikipedia Mel Wiley a small town chief of police: Post Page Ironically, RFG knew about Wiley. Neither of these men had any real reason to leave, at lease apparently.

Then you do have people that flee from a crime, like Judge Joseph O'Kicki (who I met once). A CASE OF MISSING JUDGES WORTHY OF 'PERRY MASON' OR, WHY DID THESE JURISTS END UP ABSENT FROM EASTON? I have zero doubt that RFG knew who O'Kicki was.
 
  • #380
seriously who does this walk away thing? In my whole life I have never known anyone out of a gazzilion people who have vanished period..let alone..walked away..to where? He had a daughter and an esteemed career with what should have been a fab retirement. He was still very good looking and would have been grown up enough to end his relationship with PF like an adult.

only a freaking sadist would just disappear off the planet like to go to Slovenia.
Someone who has many friends. Why would he need to lie and dissapear to accomplish this? It makes no sense..

no no, something was going on, no one knew about it except those involved.something was definitely wrong and everybody needs a new interview..the only way I will accept a walk away is if Ray was in harms way and took off to protect his family. Or if he had a secret life..? why would it have to be secret? Ray didn't need a secret life.. he wasn't even married..

he absolutely could have been cheating..and if the other woman was married it is possible she will never speak of it....and he could be dead as a result of that.

I do still get that mania vibe though..if he lost it and is a hobo somewhere that would be crazy.
If Ray was losing it, he could have called a college friend , frat brother or even childhood friend
to pick him up in Lewisberg and drop him in Manhattan.. Mental illness can run in families.

mOO
Nicholas Francisco.
 
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