Partially Wrapped Gifts

[JMO8778]

coloradokares,
I agree nother sinister may have been intended, I'm not suggesting there was a plan to kill JonBenet just to keep her close by someones side, considering that she was killed suggests something went badly wrong, how many children have fatal accidents on xmas day?


.

I'm not suggesting it was planned,either,only that if something was going on that was amiss in the house,(like molestation),then it could be understandable that someone or someones wanted to keep the others away.What if JB had inadvertently said something that let the cat out of the bag,so to speak? As it appears she did when she made the 'I don't feel pretty' comment at the party on the 23rd.Others staying several days in the house where things amiss had happened might have made the offender feel too uneasy,even if JB wasn't being molested during the time others were there.
IF that was the case,then I can only piece together that the house in MI was a much 'safer' place for them,;ie-JB had not been previously molested in that house.

 

[JMO8778]

coloradokares,
I agree nother sinister may have been intended, I'm not suggesting there was a plan to kill JonBenet just to keep her close by someones side, considering that she was killed suggests something went badly wrong, how many children have fatal accidents on xmas day?


.

on that note,how many think it's likely JB wouldn't have been killed,(at least not on C-mas night),had the others been there?
IMO,someone(s) would have made sure they themselves were on their best behavior!!

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,
I agree nother sinister may have been intended, I'm not suggesting there was a plan to kill JonBenet just to keep her close by someones side, considering that she was killed suggests something went badly wrong, how many children have fatal accidents on xmas day?


.

Chistmas is a huge time of year for abuse actually. Let me share one or two scenarios. One of the parents was Bipolar and we all Know Christmas would be a strong reason for mania, the hype and thrill or even the shopping shopping shopping. Or some cases huge overwhelming depression. Loved ones that are no longer living, how about $$ issues overspending and we know they overspend like crazy. Patsy may have lost it for what goes up must come down and the most vulnerable time is their not wantig to loose the Jazzed feeling or high of the mania. I am sure you have situations you can envision that may have created the very situation that put things over the brink. They may be different than mine but we have discussed what the epslosive consequences could have been before.

 

[JMO8778]

great post CK,and I don't know for sure if Patsy had been abused in some form or fashion growing up,but often with someone like Patsy,who displays obvious signs of BPD,in order to keep the excitement going...if there isn't a crisis going at the moment...then they will create one ! Life for them is just too dull at times not to do so.
Sometimes that can involve overspending in order to create a crisis,other times, a relationship crisis with a significant other,inc. their own children.Many times that involves putting the other person into a no-win situation,IOW,whatever they do isn't good enough,including having standards that are far too high for most children to be able to meet.

 

[UKGuy]

great post CK,and I don't know for sure if Patsy had been abused in some form or fashion growing up,but often with someone like Patsy,who displays obvious signs of BPD,in order to keep the excitement going...if there isn't a crisis going at the moment...then they will create one ! Life for them is just too dull at times not to do so.
Sometimes that can involve overspending in order to create a crisis,other times, a relationship crisis with a significant other,inc. their own children.Many times that involves putting the other person into a no-win situation,IOW,whatever they do isn't good enough,including having standards that are far too high for most children to be able to meet.

JMO8778
If she was as bipolar as you suggest maybe the exciting diversions were created to mask things that she might think indicated a deficiency in her personality?


.

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778
If she was as bipolar as you suggest maybe the exciting diversions were created to mask things that she might think indicated a deficiency in her personality?



.

That is sort of a given. Everything has to be over the top perfect and over done to the max. Everything must show case that perfection. If one thing was off even if it was what you and I would consider very nice the rage left in the wake of not meeting that perfection is not describable. it is easily recognized As you read or speak with those who knew Patsy. If you have ever been around that level of dysfunction and mania/depression it was for me at least not possible to not see at every level of Patsys larger than life and I am in control I will handle this personality and of course that is a recipe for disaster. What is important not to ignore is how that effects the rest of the family as well . Patsys steam roller personality is easily seen and of course so are the signs of chaos and clutter that hallmark this mental disorder or illness. This is the conclusion I have reached and it is my opinion and I am not a professional but I have lived with it in my own family and it stands out like a 800 lb gorilla in the room.

 

[JMO8778]

That is sort of a given. Everything has to be over the top perfect and over done to the max. Everything must show case that perfection. If one thing was off even if it was what you and I would consider very nice the rage left in the wake of not meeting that perfection is not describable. it is easily recognized As you read or speak with those who knew Patsy. If you have ever been around that level of dysfunction and mania/depression it was for me at least not possible to not see at every level of Patsys larger than life and I am in control I will handle this personality and of course that is a recipe for disaster. What is important not to ignore is how that effects the rest of the family as well . Patsys steam roller personality is easily seen and of course so are the signs of chaos and clutter that hallmark this mental disorder or illness. This is the conclusion I have reached and it is my opinion and I am not a professional but I have lived with it in my own family and it stands out like a 800 lb gorilla in the room.

UK,yes,it's a given,I agree w. CK.We've both experienced family members with it and I know that to us,it's unmistakable.
Personality disorders can sometimes be a co-dx and can come into play as well,but Patsy's behavior was pretty typical of someone with bpd.There is really nothing they think they can't accomplish,and yes,they expect perfection,and that's possibly one reason the C-mas morning video disappeared,as I've mentioned before.

 

[UKGuy]

UK,yes,it's a given,I agree w. CK.We've both experienced family members with it and I know that to us,it's unmistakable.
Personality disorders can sometimes be a co-dx and can come into play as well,but Patsy's behavior was pretty typical of someone with bpd.There is really nothing they think they can't accomplish,and yes,they expect perfection,and that's possibly one reason the C-mas morning video disappeared,as I've mentioned before.

JMO8778,
Yes the xmas-video just what sins did it display? I have experience of people with bpd and paranoid schitzophrenia, a mild form of the latter can be confused with the former. Curiously I've observed that its the hiding of self-percieved flaws that generates the external drive for perfection, possibly a consequence of abuse?


.

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,
Yes the xmas-video just what sins did it display? I have experience of people with bpd and paranoid schitzophrenia, a mild form of the latter can be confused with the former. Curiously I've observed that its the hiding of self-percieved flaws that generates the external drive for perfection, possibly a consequence of abuse?


.

True Bipolar is brain chemistry. However the personality disorder associated such as Borderline personality Distorder, Schizoeffective etc are usually subdiagnosed. As JMO said codependency etc. I have seen what you describe but in my situation its more apt to be they think they are perfect and that is the thing right there no one ever is. But at long as that is the public perception. Another would be they voluteer for everything really cannot achieve it and again no one can I will let JMo review what she feels the reason the video disappeared I feel it was JonBenet not caring for the MY TWIN Doll and words and acting out that related to that.

 

[Blondieskatz]

Wonder what happened to that video? Do we know there was really a video made? I've read the LE interviews where JR says the batteries were dead. If there is a video and JB is acting out about the My Twin Doll why hide that. In reality we all know that kids are not angels and aren't always appreciative of their gifts. But then again this would paint a black mark on the one big happy family persona.

 

[UKGuy]

True Bipolar is brain chemistry. However the personality disorder associated such as Borderline personality Distorder, Schizoeffective etc are usually subdiagnosed. As JMO said codependency etc. I have seen what you describe but in my situation its more apt to be they think they are perfect and that is the thing right there no one ever is. But at long as that is the public perception. Another would be they voluteer for everything really cannot achieve it and again no one can I will let JMo review what she feels the reason the video disappeared I feel it was JonBenet not caring for the MY TWIN Doll and words and acting out that related to that.

coloradokares,
Could be that MyTwinn Doll, my guess is that Patsy hit JonBenet otherwise why bother hiding it? Then of course there is the conspiracy theory, maybe there was the xmas-tape, and on the end JonBenet posing illegally, so that has to vanish?


.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,
Could be that MyTwinn Doll, my guess is that Patsy hit JonBenet otherwise why bother hiding it? Then of course there is the conspiracy theory, maybe there was the xmas-tape, and on the end JonBenet posing illegally, so that has to vanish?


.

I dont think Patsy would have hit JonBenet with the video tape rolling. I doubt that she made a habit of hitting JonnieB at all But there could have been words over the my My Twinn doll. You do know that JonBenet was getting sassy not only with Patsy through this time but had been seen kicking Patsy at a Pagent. She developing a precocious tude, What was it John called it she could be quite a spark plug or somethin like that. That could have the potential if something like that occured to have festered and quite the scene could have developed with another Potty accident or another thought I have harbored is Patsy wanted her and JonBenet to look alike and JonBenet threw a fit on that maybe it was one thing after another all day long. Of course JonBenet was just precious little girl, Maybe with all the travel and Holiday rush Patsy just ignited. Its also a possibility that Burke who they say was the quiet kid may have triggered an event somehow. I have never totally dismissed that as a random possibility. There is something about his age and how things were just dropped legally..... but I think there was ample evidence to suggest that was staging. Why you ask it was like everything else overdone. It left a back door to have the charges dropped all they would have to say is we were protecting Burke it was always from that moment on all about Burke. One thing is certain they got out of it somehow and I dont believe there ever was an intruder. Even if that is what most would want to believe.

 

[DeeDee249]

PR has already been recorded as saying she and JBR "disagreed" over what JBR would wear to the White's Christmas Day, with PR wanting them to wear matching red turtlenecks and black velvet jeans. JBR supposedly refused to wear the red turtleneck, according to PR, and wanted to wear the white Gap top and black velvet jeans and vest. It is still really not clear to many of us exactly which shirt JBR wore that day. PR said she wore the white shirt she was found dead in, ST had first said she wore the red turtkeneck, then I believe he said it was the white Gap shirt. He saw the photos from the Whites so he knows which shirt it really was. PR did wear the red turtleneck, black velvet jeans, with a red/black/white fleece jacket she described as "Christmasy". This is the jacket which fibers were found on the inside of the tape from JBR's mouth and entwined in the garrote.
PR also claimed that Pricilla White had the same jacket- that she admired hers, and so got one for herself. I have never seen where any one asked Pricilla White to turn over her jacket for testing, or even if she still had that fleece jacket. But to me, this was one more way that the Rs tried to frame the White's (or at least cast suspicion in their direction).

 

[JMO8778]

yes,I think it was the doll as well,and or perhaps Patsy was seen taking meds in the background,or a bottle of pills was out.But my guess is the doll triggered some rage in her.She's holding JB's arm tightly in the photo,yet appears to be trying to smile,as if it's not really working.
Patsy got the doll so JB could dress like her,I take that to mean so JB in turn would want to dress like her mother.And that didn't happen on both counts that day.
It can really be all the little triggers that add up in someone with bpd,Patsy seemed one to take things personally,rather than just seeing JB as a normal 6 yo who doesn't always want to do what her mother wants her to do!

 

[UKGuy]

PR has already been recorded as saying she and JBR "disagreed" over what JBR would wear to the White's Christmas Day, with PR wanting them to wear matching red turtlenecks and black velvet jeans. JBR supposedly refused to wear the red turtleneck, according to PR, and wanted to wear the white Gap top and black velvet jeans and vest. It is still really not clear to many of us exactly which shirt JBR wore that day. PR said she wore the white shirt she was found dead in, ST had first said she wore the red turtkeneck, then I believe he said it was the white Gap shirt. He saw the photos from the Whites so he knows which shirt it really was. PR did wear the red turtleneck, black velvet jeans, with a red/black/white fleece jacket she described as "Christmasy". This is the jacket which fibers were found on the inside of the tape from JBR's mouth and entwined in the garrote.
PR also claimed that Pricilla White had the same jacket- that she admired hers, and so got one for herself. I have never seen where any one asked Pricilla White to turn over her jacket for testing, or even if she still had that fleece jacket. But to me, this was one more way that the Rs tried to frame the White's (or at least cast suspicion in their direction).

DeeDee249,
Steve Thomas states in his book that photographs of JonBenet at the White's party show her wearing the white-gap top. Patsy's story regarding the red turtleneck may be contrived to explain away how it arrived in the bathroom all balled up?

A PDI that has Patsy and JonBenet fighting over her being forced to wear it on return from the White's, resulting in the head injury, say by the turtleneck being pulled over her head, then her blindly falling, seems more credible than any Toilet Rage scenario.

For me the curious clue is why was Patsy still wearing her jacket after returning home, then continuing to wear it throughout the staging, including her appearance at the front door the next morning?

.

 

[UKGuy]

yes,I think it was the doll as well,and or perhaps Patsy was seen taking meds in the background,or a bottle of pills was out.But my guess is the doll triggered some rage in her.She's holding JB's arm tightly in the photo,yet appears to be trying to smile,as if it's not really working.
Patsy got the doll so JB could dress like her,I take that to mean so JB in turn would want to dress like her mother.And that didn't happen on both counts that day.
It can really be all the little triggers that add up in someone with bpd,Patsy seemed one to take things personally,rather than just seeing JB as a normal 6 yo who doesn't always want to do what her mother wants her to do!

JMO8778,
Well it seems there is something on that missing tape that connects with her death, otherwise why make it vanish? Patsy should have just had a My Twinn doll made in her likeness so JonBenet could be in no doubt as to who the star of the show was, and who the pupil was?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Well it seems there is something on that missing tape that connects with her death, otherwise why make it vanish? Patsy should have just had a My Twinn doll made in her likeness so JonBenet could be in no doubt as to who the star of the show was, and who the pupil was?


.

right on all counts,and I hadn't thought of that before.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've always felt that the missing tape showed that JAR or Grandpa Paugh (or both) were there, when they claimed they were not. I don't know whether JR would have kept the tape rolling for a PR/JBR meltdown. So in my mind there had to be something else.

 

[UKGuy]

I've always felt that the missing tape showed that JAR or Grandpa Paugh (or both) were there, when they claimed they were not. I don't know whether JR would have kept the tape rolling for a PR/JBR meltdown. So in my mind there had to be something else.

DeeDee249,

If the tape had shown that JAR or Grandpa Paugh (or both) were there, then all bets are off as to who killed JonBenet!



.

 

[rashomon]

[DeeDee]:
It is still really not clear to many of us exactly which shirt JBR wore that day. PR said she wore the white shirt she was found dead in, ST had first said she wore the red turtkeneck, then I believe he said it was the white Gap shirt. He saw the photos from the Whites so he knows which shirt it really was.

DeeDee249,
Steve Thomas states in his book that photographs of JonBenet at the White's party show her wearing the white-gap top. Patsy's story regarding the red turtleneck may be contrived to explain away how it arrived in the bathroom all balled up?

A PDI that has Patsy and JonBenet fighting over her being forced to wear it on return from the White's, resulting in the head injury, say by the turtleneck being pulled over her head, then her blindly falling, seems more credible than any Toilet Rage scenario.

For me the curious clue is why was Patsy still wearing her jacket after returning home, then continuing to wear it throughout the staging, including her appearance at the front door the next morning?

Not only did Steve Thomas say so in his book, he later said verbatim in a chat room discussion that JonBenet did NOT wear the red turtleneck to the Whites' party, only the white gap top.

In the interview, Patsy became pretty upset when shown a picture of the red turtleneck. She even started to cry (allegedly when seeing a pageant crown in the same picture, but imo it was crocodile tears because Patsy wanted to 'flee' from more questions regarding the turtleneck).
Too bad the interviewers fell for her ruse and politely asked her if she wanted to take a break.
Of course, that was exactly what Patsy wanted: take a break from these questions to get the time to think of an answer.
And it gets worse: when Patsy returned from her break, one expected the interviewers at least to pick up right where they left off.
But no – the critical subject was simply DROPPED altogether and they asked her about something else.

Again, another opportunity to get Patsy with her back up against the wall was missed forever. :banghead:

Those wishy-washy interviews of the Ramseys were mostly just plain pitiful. They were a guilty suspects' dream. :furious:

I too think the red turtleneck may have played a role in the tragic events of that night. For a rage attack by Patsy needn't necessarily have been a 'toilet' rage attack.