Partially Wrapped Gifts

[rashomon]

[azwriter]:In reading your description of the "tube" of Bloomies, would that mean the panties were packaged inside in order of the days of the week? That would mean Wednesday's pair would be close to the middle of the tube, wouldn't it? If that is the case, since we know JonBenet was wearing size 12 Wednesday, then that particular pair must have been selected on purpose instead of just removing a pair from the "tube."
And, does anyone know if JonBenet was capable of reading the days of the week? If it's possible she could have put the larger size Wednesday panties herself. JMO

Good point about the Bloomies coming possibly packaged in a tube.
A poster (Jayelles who is well-known on the JBR forums, and who also did the experiment with the size 12s,) actually bought the same set when she was in NYC. I'll ask her.

Edited to add: here is a picture of how they were packed:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107

 

[UKGuy]

Good point about the Bloomies coming possibly packaged in a tube.
A poster (Jayelles who is well-known on the JBR forums, and who also did the experiment with the size 12s,) actually bought the same set when she was in NYC. I'll ask her.

Jmpo, but if John had killed JonBenet, the apple of her eye, I think Patsy would have killed him instead of staging the scene for him.

First of all, the offender's psychological state of mind is a strong factor in a such a horribly tragic homicide as it happened in the Ramsey home.
Therefore to assume that the stager of the scene was NOT panicked enough to have overlooked quite a few things would be ignorant.
Heck, Patsy was in such a panic that she left her own handwriting on her own paper when she wrote that inane note, obviously no aware of the fact that by doing this, she would direct the investigators' attention directly to the residents of the home as being involved! How much logic and analytical thinking do you expect from somoene who writes a note like that? From someone who tied a wrist ligature so ineptly that it came off?

No, Patsy's inept answers tell me that she had no idea that the size size 12s would become such a big issue and then tried to wriggle herself out of the mistake she made. That's why she gave such inept answers.

Imo there is far more evidence that John followed Pastsy's script than vice versa. For it was Patsy who was the main stager of the scene, not John.

rashomon,

Jmpo, but if John had killed JonBenet, the apple of her eye, I think Patsy would have killed him instead of staging the scene for him.

Well what you think does not explain the evidence e.g. both parents are linked to the crime-scene and so involved in the death of JonBenet.

First of all, the offender's psychological state of mind is a strong factor in a such a horribly tragic homicide as it happened in the Ramsey home.
Therefore to assume that the stager of the scene was NOT panicked enough to have overlooked quite a few things would be ignorant.
Heck, Patsy was in such a panic that she left her own handwriting on her own paper when she wrote that inane note, obviously no aware of the fact that by doing this, she would direct the investigators' attention directly to the residents of the home as being involved! How much logic and analytical thinking do you expect from somoene who writes a note like that? From someone who tied a wrist ligature so ineptly that it came off?

Sure but the stuff that is overlooked is stuff Patsy is fully aware of, e.g. the size-12's, she purchased them, they are directly linked to her, yet she offers a nonsensical explanation for JonBenet wearing those size-12's, despite this occurring long after the death of JonBenet. Also if Patsy fetched the longjohns from her bathroom why not fetch a pair of size-6's at the same time?

No, Patsy's inept answers tell me that she had no idea that the size size 12s would become such a big issue and then tried to wriggle herself out of the mistake she made. That's why she gave such inept answers.

She did not need to offer the answer she did, her answer assumes the police have the remaining size-12's, her answer tells you she does not know. So she must be following someone elses script, thats why her answers are inept, she is simply ignorant, tension or panic has long ago subsided by the time of her interview!

 

[JMO8778]

It sounds like JR simply told her he got rid of the rest of the evidence,and nothing more.He probably figured the less she knew about where it went,the better.Remember Patsy was highly medicated at the time,(although she did apparently have some wits about her).But I think she needed JR to be able to pull the whole thing off,and together,they did.

 

[DeeDee249]

I also think PR never thought the size of the panties would become an issue in the case, just as she never though the pineapple in her digestive tract would be found and become an issue in the case. The panties and the pineapple are too things that did not need to be lied about by an innocent person. A guilty person would have to lie about them because a guilty person knows exactly why and how they became part of JBR's last hours.

 

[UKGuy]

It sounds like JR simply told her he got rid of the rest of the evidence,and nothing more.He probably figured the less she knew about where it went,the better.Remember Patsy was highly medicated at the time,(although she did apparently have some wits about her).But I think she needed JR to be able to pull the whole thing off,and together,they did.

JMO8778,
Thats my take on it. It also underlines the hiring of separate lawyers etc, and JR's desire to flee by plane interstate, asap!

The mistakes in the PDI are not the kind of mistakes I would expect Patsy to make, particularly over the size-12's, also the theorizing over the size-12's is just that, its injected into the PDI to link Patsy to the size-12's!

The background to JonBenet's abuse appears early in her life, manifesting itself publicly via her regular pageant attendances. The private abuse is obviously less visible, the singing and dancing recitals for her parents, the dressing up, and posing sessions, possibly choreographed and photographed, hence the questions regarding the collection of photographs discovered in the basement, which nobody owned. Then there is the evidence relating to acute and chronic sexual abuse, of which the acute aspect was hidden from view despite an intruder homicide being staged. imo this all adds up to both parents being culpable, but one parent in particular abusing JonBenet sexually. This is what binds both parents together, possibly even Burke albeit indirectly, and extracts the ongoing silence?

JonBenet may even have been the victim of interfamilial abuse, hence the extended silence after her death, and the obvious pork barrel dealings over employment, property, documentary rights, evidentiary sales to the media etc, the litigation, all involuntary accomodations, as the Ramsey's spin their web of affiliation to maintain the silence.


.

 

[rashomon]

She did not need to offer the answer she did, her answer assumes the police have the remaining size-12's, her answer tells you she does not know.

But didn't the inteviewers tell Patsy that the police could not find the size 12s when they searched the house?

 

[UKGuy]

But didn't the inteviewers tell Patsy that the police could not find the size 12s when they searched the house?

rashomon,
Absolutely not. Try and guess why the panty sizes are missing from the search warrant listings?


During that interview Patsy was given every opportunity to offer a reason why JonBenet was wearing those size-12's

e.g.

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.

Note Patsy places the package in the drawer and JonBenet opens it.

9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.

Another opportunity to offer some explanation.

conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.

Again another opportunity.

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.

5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.

This question is so important it is asked repeatedly!


Patsy's position is made totally untenable here:

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

Now the questions about the other size-6's

12 Q. Okay. I am slightly confused,
13 and I would like this clarified. When I
14 first started to ask you about the purchase
15 of the panties in November, I got the
16 impression that you were somewhat unclear as
17 to whether you bought two sets or one.
18 In follow-up questions, I got the
19 impression that you felt confident that you
20 only bought one. Do you know?
21 A. I really can't remember.
22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you
23 never mailed this pair out to --
24 A. Jenny, yes.
25 Q. Okay. So if there was an
0112
1 unopened package, it would have been left in
2 the house?
3 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you came home and you got
16 her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
17 wearing panties? When you changed her out
18 of the black velvet --
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
20 Q. - type pants --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- and into the long underwear
23 pants --
24 A. Uh-huh, right.
25 Q. -- the White ones, did you notice
0113
1 if she had a pair of panties on?
2 A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.

The reason for these questions is to then ask her to compare what she saw then, with any picture she has subsequently seen of JonBenet wearing the size-12's e.g. a crime-scene image.

So basically Patsy is offered opportunity after opportunity to come up with some reason why JonBenet might be wearing those size-12's, she states she placed the package into JonBenet's panty drawer and left it up to JonBenet, then she states she was the one who opened and put them in her panty drawer then it becomes the collective we.

Patsy during this inteview has stated she purchased the size-12's, that she placed them into JonBenet's panty drawer, at some point prior to the party at the White's, and that she cannot remember JonBenet ever wearing a pair of size-12's.

Assuming a PDI Patsy has just sunk her own staging, she agrees the size-12's were not brought in by any intruder. So Patsy knowing her position looks shaky suggests she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer and JonBenet helped herself, no big deal eh?

This is not an explanation you need offer if you yourself removed the remaining size-12's. No amount of panic or confusion can induce that answer, it is one that follows from ignorance regarding the actual status of the remaining size-12's!

The investigators must have known Patsy was lying on someone elses behalf?

Even if Patsy had done the staging then when she went to fetch a pair of longjohns she would have had the opportunity to fetch a pair of size-6's, any day-of-the-week will do, because exactly the same excuse as offered regarding the size-12's can be presented e.g. JonBenet must have changed into the the size-6's after returning from the White's?

So the PDI has Patsy making critical errors that she need not make since she already knows the status of the size-12's, or that this issue can be avoided by initially using size-6's from JonBenet's panty drawer.

Just to underline how flawed the PDI is:

But didn't the inteviewers tell Patsy that the police could not find the size 12s when they searched the house?

If the investigators had told Patsy this then she could have tailored her answers to their questions, but this did not happen!

 

[coloradokares]

rashomon,
Absolutely not. Try and guess why the panty sizes are missing from the search warrant listings?


During that interview Patsy was given every opportunity to offer a reason why JonBenet was wearing those size-12's

e.g.

Note Patsy places the package in the drawer and JonBenet opens it.


Another opportunity to offer some explanation.


Again another opportunity.


Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.


This question is so important it is asked repeatedly!


Patsy's position is made totally untenable here:


Now the questions about the other size-6's



The reason for these questions is to then ask her to compare what she saw then, with any picture she has subsequently seen of JonBenet wearing the size-12's e.g. a crime-scene image.

So basically Patsy is offered opportunity after opportunity to come up with some reason why JonBenet might be wearing those size-12's, she states she placed the package into JonBenet's panty drawer and left it up to JonBenet, then she states she was the one who opened and put them in her panty drawer then it becomes the collective we.

Patsy during this inteview has stated she purchased the size-12's, that she placed them into JonBenet's panty drawer, at some point prior to the party at the White's, and that she cannot remember JonBenet ever wearing a pair of size-12's.

Assuming a PDI Patsy has just sunk her own staging, she agrees the size-12's were not brought in by any intruder. So Patsy knowing her position looks shaky suggests she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer and JonBenet helped herself, no big deal eh?

This is not an explanation you need offer if you yourself removed the remaining size-12's. No amount of panic or confusion can induce that answer, it is one that follows from ignorance regarding the actual status of the remaining size-12's!

The investigators must have known Patsy was lying on someone elses behalf?

Even if Patsy had done the staging then when she went to fetch a pair of longjohns she would have had the opportunity to fetch a pair of size-6's, any day-of-the-week will do, because exactly the same excuse as offered regarding the size-12's can be presented e.g. JonBenet must have changed into the the size-6's after returning from the White's?

So the PDI has Patsy making critical errors that she need not make since she already knows the status of the size-12's, or that this issue can be avoided by initially using size-6's from JonBenet's panty drawer.

Just to underline how flawed the PDI is:

If the investigators had told Patsy this then she could have tailored her answers to their questions, but this did not happen!

There seems to be a presumption that Patsy is steadfastly telling the truth. Yet we know that the the truth is not compatible with the evidence that even the remaining pairs were not in the drawer but eventually sent in by the Ramseys. Yet it seems that instead of seeing this for what it was a blatant act of not telling the truth the police would rather keep asking the guestion that begs an answer than to accept there is no answer that would match Patsys version of the truth .... here we are nearly 11 years later acting dumbfounded that as regards the underwear there is no answer ever received regarding those bloomies that could be compatible with the truth. The failue was in holding Patsy feet to the the heat till she answered the question......truthfully. Like that was going to happen. That is my opinion. The underwear did not grow legs and walk off

 

[Blondieskatz]

Acandyrose shows the Rs bed- no black velvet there. JAR's bedroom had dark green/white stripe, JonBenet's had pink and floral, BR had blue. The "black velvet sheet" had to be something else. It could have been the pants, and seemed in a photo to be just fabric, and was misdescribed.

the list also included a black comforter above the black velvet sheet~
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12271996.htm

Wonder where they came from?

 

[Blondieskatz]

Acandyrose shows the Rs bed- no black velvet there. JAR's bedroom had dark green/white stripe, JonBenet's had pink and floral, BR had blue. The "black velvet sheet" had to be something else. It could have been the pants, and seemed in a photo to be just fabric, and was misdescribed.

the list also included a black comforter above the black velvet sheet~
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12271996.htm

Wonder where they came from?

 

[coloradokares]

the list also included a black comforter above the black velvet sheet~
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12271996.htm

Wonder where they came from?

Perhaps it was like an extra set? I have more than one set.

 

[UKGuy]

There seems to be a presumption that Patsy is steadfastly telling the truth. Yet we know that the the truth is not compatible with the evidence that even the remaining pairs were not in the drawer but eventually sent in by the Ramseys. Yet it seems that instead of seeing this for what it was a blatant act of not telling the truth the police would rather keep asking the guestion that begs an answer than to accept there is no answer that would match Patsys version of the truth .... here we are nearly 11 years later acting dumbfounded that as regards the underwear there is no answer ever received regarding those bloomies that could be compatible with the truth. The failue was in holding Patsy feet to the the heat till she answered the question......truthfully. Like that was going to happen. That is my opinion. The underwear did not grow legs and walk off

coloradokares,

There seems to be a presumption that Patsy is steadfastly telling the truth.

Really? You care to point out where this presumption is?

Yet it seems that instead of seeing this for what it was a blatant act of not telling the truth the police would rather keep asking the guestion that begs an answer than to accept there is no answer that would match Patsys version of the truth ....

I reckon the police got what they wanted they locked Patsy into her version regarding the size-12's complete with her lies. They never arrived at the point where they could ask Patsy to compare the crime-scene size-12's with what she was wearing when she undressed Jonbenet on returning from the White's. And Patsy's loss of memory regarding whether she purchased a set of Bloomingdales size-6's postponed questions about a likely missing pair of size-6's e.g. the BPD may have had 6-pairs of Bloomingdales size-6's?

Remember the question regarding the unopened package of size-6's still being in the house, if these are not found then those in the drawer can be assumed to be those?

Patsy's lies demonstrate that she does not know anything about the size-12's, she can only arrive at this state of affairs if she is ignorant that the remaining size-12's are missing else why state what she does?


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Absolutely not. Try and guess why the panty sizes are missing from the search warrant listings?

Then where does the info come from that the police could not find any size 12s during their house search? I'm quite certain that one of the investigators said this somewhere.

[UKGuy]:
If the investigators had told Patsy this then she could have tailored her answers to their questions, but this did not happen!

What answer would you have 'tailored' in Patsy's place? Remember she admitted to having bought the size 12s.
Should she offer as an 'explanation' that the intruder rummaged in the drawers until he found Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday size 12 Bloomies to take away with him?

Also, why should Patsy think the investigators had the remaining size 12s?

Just think about it -

Fact is: the police could NOT find the remaining size 12 set during their house search.

The inference: the stager of the scene either removed the set or hid it very well.

If Patsy removed the set from the house as they left the scene, she would know they couldn't have found them.

If she hid them, then of course she would have looked at the hiding spot upon returning to their home, to see if they were still there.

[UKGuy]:
Even if Patsy had done the staging then when she went to fetch a pair of longjohns she would have had the opportunity to fetch a pair of size-6's, any day-of-the-week will do, because exactly the same excuse as offered regarding the size-12's can be presented e.g. JonBenet must have changed into the the size-6's after returning from the White's?

Why should JonBenet have changed into any size 6s after returning from the Whites? I don't understand what you mean here.

Yes indeed Patsy would have had the opportunity, when fetching the longjohns to put on the body, to also fetch a size 6 pair from the drawer.
But she did NOT.
Patsy claimed not to remember whether she bought a pair of size 6s Bloomies for JonBenet also. This evasive answer is simply ridiculous, considering how well she remembered having bought a size 12 set for Jenny on the same trip.
Very often in interrogations, when a suspect claims not to remember, they remember very well, but don't want to tell the truth.

Here is a picture of how the Bloomies were packed: (post #1 and #2)

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107

In post # 2 you can see that they are sealed, with a little
plastic "string" which goes through the loop at the end, the tags and the hole in the zipper. You need to break this to open it.

Imo the stager of the scene did not choose these oversized Bloomies just because she wanted a 'Wednesday' pair to be found on the victim, but
consciously chose to replace the Wednesday pair of a size 6 Bloomies set which JonBenet had been wearing, hoping the investigators would believe those she put on the victim belonged to the same set.

The size 6s probably contained incriminating forensic evidence (maybe feces).

I'm more than ever convinced that Patsy ran the staging from start to finish, with John helping her at some point.
Imo the point came when Patsy, after trying to inflict genital wounds on JonBenet, was unable to proceed, and had to stop after the abrasion when she saw the blood.
John took over then, but couldn't do it either, instead he wiped the blood off and Patsy then got the size 12s and handed them over to him.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Really? You care to point out where this presumption is?


I reckon the police got what they wanted they locked Patsy into her version regarding the size-12's complete with her lies. They never arrived at the point where they could ask Patsy to compare the crime-scene size-12's with what she was wearing when she undressed Jonbenet on returning from the White's. And Patsy's loss of memory regarding whether she purchased a set of Bloomingdales size-6's postponed questions about a likely missing pair of size-6's e.g. the BPD may have had 6-pairs of Bloomingdales size-6's?

Remember the question regarding the unopened package of size-6's still being in the house, if these are not found then those in the drawer can be assumed to be those?

Patsy's lies demonstrate that she does not know anything about the size-12's, she can only arrive at this state of affairs if she is ignorant that the remaining size-12's are missing else why state what she does?


.

The presumption appears to have been on your part that she was telling the truth??

I dont feel that Patsy was in the least ignorant of the size 12s One reason for their vanishing act until of course they were mailed back eons later, if in fact it was that tube not a look alike that was mailed back at all .

My husband had a childhood saying, I have no idea how to spell it. Perhaps rashomon could help with this. My hubby would use his parents native language to say "More cats named pussy than one." I wont attempt the spelling for I would not want to ruin the beauty of the sound of it. I can say my inlaws were much more educated than I they spoke two languages fluently and their chidren as well I only speak the one.

 

[rashomon]

I reckon the police got what they wanted they locked Patsy into her version regarding the size-12's complete with her lies.

"They" (btw it wasn't the police who conducted the interviews) did not lock Patsy into anything. Instead, their wishy-washy questioning once more opened the door wide for Patsy to be wishy-washy in her answers too, and Patsy seized the opportunity of course.

Let's face it (and if you can offer one single example proving the contrary, please post it here): the interrogations of the Ramseys were just plain pitiful. They were a joke.
Not once did the investigators seize the opportunity to get them with their back up against the wall – not once!
Instead, the Ramseys were given kid glove treatment in ALL those interviews. For example, when things got critical (e.g. when Patsy was asked about the red turtleneck) she merely shed some crocodile tears, and they fell for it, politely asking her if she wanted to take a break. Of course, that was exactly what Patsy wanted: take a break from these questions to get the time to think for an answer .
And it gets worse: when Patsy returned from her break, one expected the interviewers at least to pick up right where they left off. But no – often, the critical subject was simply DROPPED altogether and they asked her about something else.
Also, the interviewers were such wimps that they let Lin Wood be totally disrespectful to them. Wood employed his usual tactic, interrupting them whenever he could, asking aggressive questions to throw them off balance.
Instead of being told by Kane & Co: “I am asking the questions here, Mr. Wood”, they gave him free rein, and Wood of course took advantage of this “offer”. I had the impression that they were afraid of Wood’s attack dog behavior.

[UKGuy]:
They never arrived at the point where they could ask Patsy to compare the crime-scene size-12's with what she was wearing when she undressed Jonbenet on returning from the White's.

Does that surprise you? These interviewers were every guilty suspect's dream!

[UKGuy]:
And Patsy's loss of memory regarding whether she purchased a set of Bloomingdales size-6's postponed questions about a likely missing pair of size-6's e.g. the BPD may have had 6-pairs of Bloomingdales size-6's?

And they let that 'alleged memory' loss slide! Without even asking something like:
"Am I getting that right, Patsy: On that trip to Bloomingdale's, you distinctly remember having bought size 12 Bloomies for your niece, but can't remember whether you bought a smaller set for your daughter too?"

Patsy: "No, I can't remember."

Interviewer: "Now what would you say if we told you that we have found new size 6 Bloomies in JonBenet's drawer? Would that refresh your memory?"

Patsy's lies demonstrate that she does not know anything about the size-12's, she can only arrive at this state of affairs if she is ignorant that the remaining size-12's are missing else why state what she does?

Imo Patsy's lies demonstrate that she does not know how to wriggle out of the mistake she made by putting the size 12s on JonBenet and hiding/removing the rest of the set.

(Edited to add: sorry about the too big letters in that one passage: I copied it over from an email I had written and could not convert them into smaller size).

 

[DeeDee249]

In PR's answers in Lines 7 - 12 , she combines truth with lies. When asked whether the size 12 Bloomies were meant for Jenny and instead given to JBR, she states that she DID buy them for Jenny, and intended to PUT THEM IN A PACKAGE TO SEND TO JENNY (this is what I have said all along about the "partially (un)wrapped gifts in the basement- someone was LOOKING for those panties she had put in with other things). Then she LIES: saying that instead she put them in JBR's panty drawer. Yet it is a known fact that NO size 12 panties were found in the house. This is why PR lies- when faced with the fact that the police know that it isn't typical for a child of that age and size to be wearing panties of that size PR is genuinely surprised by this, having thought it would never be seen as unusual. She had already admitted buying them. She does not deny that the panties found on her daughter were the ones she bought. PR micromanaged every aspect of JBR's life, especially her appearance, and had already admitted arguing with her about the outfit she had selected for her daughter to wear. I find it out of character for PR to have allowed JBR to wear panties that size. For one thing, although wetting would have the same result no matter what size the panties were, soiling would be made so much worse by wearing panties that fit so loosely around the legs and crotch. To be blunt, fecal matter would slip through the leg openings and fall out! And if pants were worn, it could slip down the legs, making the mess so much worse.
No way PR allowed JBR to wear panties that big- that day or ANY day.

 

[JMO8778]

good thoughts,Deedee.the only conclusions I can draw for certain out of it are that JR redressed JB in the too-large underwear,and that he didn't ever mention to Patsy,at least not bf the interviews,what he'd done with the rest of them (or rather,how PP later disposed of them,IMO).And it does seem the stager was worried someone might have seen JB in that type underwear at the White's,so viola..change it to something that appears to be the same.
But I'm not so sure JR wouldn't have known about the underwear..Patsy might have had everything laying out bf wrapping them,and he happened to see them,not thinking anything about it until they were later needed.

 

[UKGuy]

The presumption appears to have been on your part that she was telling the truth??

I dont feel that Patsy was in the least ignorant of the size 12s One reason for their vanishing act until of course they were mailed back eons later, if in fact it was that tube not a look alike that was mailed back at all .

My husband had a childhood saying, I have no idea how to spell it. Perhaps rashomon could help with this. My hubby would use his parents native language to say "More cats named pussy than one." I wont attempt the spelling for I would not want to ruin the beauty of the sound of it. I can say my inlaws were much more educated than I they spoke two languages fluently and their chidren as well I only speak the one.

coloradokares,

The presumption appears to have been on your part that she was telling the truth??

mmm, yet I describe her answers regarding the size-12's as lies?

 

[UKGuy]

In PR's answers in Lines 7 - 12 , she combines truth with lies. When asked whether the size 12 Bloomies were meant for Jenny and instead given to JBR, she states that she DID buy them for Jenny, and intended to PUT THEM IN A PACKAGE TO SEND TO JENNY (this is what I have said all along about the "partially (un)wrapped gifts in the basement- someone was LOOKING for those panties she had put in with other things). Then she LIES: saying that instead she put them in JBR's panty drawer. Yet it is a known fact that NO size 12 panties were found in the house. This is why PR lies- when faced with the fact that the police know that it isn't typical for a child of that age and size to be wearing panties of that size PR is genuinely surprised by this, having thought it would never be seen as unusual. She had already admitted buying them. She does not deny that the panties found on her daughter were the ones she bought. PR micromanaged every aspect of JBR's life, especially her appearance, and had already admitted arguing with her about the outfit she had selected for her daughter to wear. I find it out of character for PR to have allowed JBR to wear panties that size. For one thing, although wetting would have the same result no matter what size the panties were, soiling would be made so much worse by wearing panties that fit so loosely around the legs and crotch. To be blunt, fecal matter would slip through the leg openings and fall out! And if pants were worn, it could slip down the legs, making the mess so much worse.
No way PR allowed JBR to wear panties that big- that day or ANY day.

DeeDee249,

In PR's answers in Lines 7 - 12 , she combines truth with lies. When asked whether the size 12 Bloomies were meant for Jenny and instead given to JBR, she states that she DID buy them for Jenny, and intended to PUT THEM IN A PACKAGE TO SEND TO JENNY (this is what I have said all along about the "partially (un)wrapped gifts in the basement- someone was LOOKING for those panties she had put in with other things).

But the items discovered unwrapped were the three gifts for Burke e.g.

Partially wrapped FOA Swartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FOA Swartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FOA Swartz (57KKY)

These were being hidden from Burke, so why would Jenny's gift be placed down into the basement? You say someone was LOOKING for those panties she had put in with other things, yet you have no evidence to base this assumption on, the size-12's may have been placed on JonBenet upstairs?

Then she LIES: saying that instead she put them in JBR's panty drawer. Yet it is a known fact that NO size 12 panties were found in the house.

This is a fact that was not known to Patsy.

I find it out of character for PR to have allowed JBR to wear panties that size.

I agree and this is another reason why Patsy would not have used the size-12's.


.

 

[rashomon]

My husband had a childhood saying, I have no idea how to spell it. Perhaps rashomon could help with this. My hubby would use his parents native language to say "More cats named pussy than one." I wont attempt the spelling for I would not want to ruin the beauty of the sound of it. I can say my inlaws were much more educated than I they spoke two languages fluently and their chidren as well I only speak the one.

Is it a German saying, CK? With cat, right now I can only think of "In der Nacht sind alle Katzen grau", ("At night, all cats are gray"), meaning that under unfavorable circumstances clouding the view, it can be more diffficult to distinctly see things (or grasp the truth about something). But this is not a childhood saying.

Maybe you could try to attempt the spelling - TIA.