Partially Wrapped Gifts

  • #141
In reading your description of the "tube" of Bloomies, would that mean the panties were packaged inside in order of the days of the week? That would mean Wednesday's pair would be close to the middle of the tube, wouldn't it? If that is the case, since we know JonBenet was wearing size 12 Wednesday, then that particular pair must have been selected on purpose instead of just removing a pair from the "tube."
And, does anyone know if JonBenet was capable of reading the days of the week? If it's possible she could have put the larger size Wednesday panties herself. JMO

azwriter,
Yes it looks as if the Wednesday pair were deliberately selected, but this assumes the Bloomingdales package was opened neatly without spilling the contents. The package would have been difficult for JonBenet to open scissors may have been required. From memory JonBenet's underwear was day tagged as was Burke's, so I guess this assumes JonBenet could read days of the week?


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  • #142
I believe in this case if it was"toilet rage", it may have pertained to fecal soiling and not to bedwetting or wetting herself.

DeeDee249,
Sure and this was discussed in an interview, but curiously the soiled pants on the bathroom floor were skipped over, again this is evidence you might expect her killer to have removed, else why bother with a nice clean pair of Wednesday size-12's that become urine-stained?


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  • #143
another thought that comes to mind in the selection of the size 12's are that this was to appear a bedtime abduction.in doing so,that means it would be a little more believable if she were also wearing a Wed. pair of underwear,i.e.-we didn't change her clothes,she was still wearing the Wed. pair she had on b/c the prior day was a Wed.
 
  • #144
DeeDee249,
Sure and this was discussed in an interview, but curiously the soiled pants on the bathroom floor were skipped over, again this is evidence you might expect her killer to have removed, else why bother with a nice clean pair of Wednesday size-12's that become urine-stained?


.
I keep coming back to one thing regarding that...NO R dna on them !!
 
  • #145
This is a mystery to me, too. But the things that come to mind are that if he DOES know more about how they impact the case and is not permitted to speak about it or he does not feel they matter to the case ( find this hard to believe, though). To me, it is the replacement size 12s that link PR VERY closely to the staging, if not to the murder, yet I have not seen speculation from ST, nor any LE familiar with the case as to WHY her panties would have needed to be changed at all. It wasn't because she had wet them- that may have occurred post-mortem anyway- and besides, the urine-stained panties and long johns were left on her anyway. That would raise a red flag to me that it was some OTHER bodily fluid (semen or blood) that would be MUCH more implicating that necessitated her panties be changed.
Yet, other than being discussed by people like us, not much else is said about them. PR's interrogators ask her about the panties, ask about the NYC shopping trip, but really don't probe. They seem to accept PR's statements- I have not seen where she was asked point blank if SHE had put the too-large panties on her daughter. She dances around this by talking about JBR's panty drawer and how she "helps herself to whatever is in there". So the impression PR gives is that JBR dressed herself in those huge panties, and her mother was unaware of this fact. Yet JBR always needed help on the toilet- I can't believe PR wouldn't have noticed her panties didn't fit.
What she seems to be getting a pass on is that she is never confronted with the fact that blood was found to have been wiped from her panty/thigh area yet corresponding blood was not found on the size 12 panties that were found on the body of her daughter. A few drops, yes, but not blood in sufficient quantity to correspond with a relatively large area having been wiped of blood.
thx for answering that,yes,it is odd she isn't probed on that,any thoughts, anyone?
 
  • #146
thx for answering that,yes,it is odd she isn't probed on that,any thoughts, anyone?

JMO8778,

mmm, all depends on your theory. She is not questioned because she is not supposed to know, only the stager can answer that, so she will always plead ignorance to this aspect?
 
  • #147
I keep coming back to one thing regarding that...NO R dna on them !!

JMO8778,
Why should that matter, it is the underwear that matters not how clean they are, e.g. they are urine-soiled.

No R dna excepting JonBenet's should really apply to any underwear discovered on JonBenet?

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene from JonBenet's assymetric pigtails down to her size-12's, but the size-12's are the big mistake, and one Patsy lies about in the absence of the evidence, once this is realized the evidence is later rediscovered.

I reckon Patsy is lying on someone elses behalf!



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  • #148
I base my comment about there being 2 pairs of Wednesday panties on PR's statements about purchasing them on her November trip to Bloomingdale's NYC. Though in one of her interviews she is vague about whether she bought 2 sets, I remember reading where she had discussed buying a set for JBR and a set for Jenny. While this doesn't mean as an absolute that there were no others, it s unlikely that there were.

PR was asked about those soiled black pants- she was shown a crime scene photo with a pair of children's black pants (with soiled panties inside?) Her comment was that they were a pair of "play pants" that JBR had worn earlier. This was to differentiate them from "dressy pants or good pants" like the black velvet pants JBR wore to the White's. However, in a photograph I would bet that it would not be possible to tell whether the soiled black pants in a photograph were velvet or some other fabric. I believe those pants shown to PR in that photograph WERE the black velvet pants worn to the White's - JBR soiling yet again and possibly the straw that broke etc.. as far as PR was concerned.
 
  • #149
I base my comment about there being 2 pairs of Wednesday panties on PR's statements about purchasing them on her November trip to Bloomingdale's NYC. Though in one of her interviews she is vague about whether she bought 2 sets, I remember reading where she had discussed buying a set for JBR and a set for Jenny. While this doesn't mean as an absolute that there were no others, it s unlikely that there were.

PR was asked about those soiled black pants- she was shown a crime scene photo with a pair of children's black pants (with soiled panties inside?) Her comment was that they were a pair of "play pants" that JBR had worn earlier. This was to differentiate them from "dressy pants or good pants" like the black velvet pants JBR wore to the White's. However, in a photograph I would bet that it would not be possible to tell whether the soiled black pants in a photograph were velvet or some other fabric. I believe those pants shown to PR in that photograph WERE the black velvet pants worn to the White's - JBR soiling yet again and possibly the straw that broke etc.. as far as PR was concerned.

DeeDee249,
I base my comment about there being 2 pairs of Wednesday panties on PR's statements about purchasing them on her November trip to Bloomingdale's NYC. Though in one of her interviews she is vague about whether she bought 2 sets, I remember reading where she had discussed buying a set for JBR and a set for Jenny. While this doesn't mean as an absolute that there were no others, it s unlikely that there were.
So you cannot confirm that JonBenet was at any time prior to her death wearing a pair of Bloomingdales, size-6, Wednesday pants? There were 15 pairs of underwear available in JonBenet's panty drawer, two of which may have been a Wednesday day of the week e.g. 2 seven day sets and one other pair?

I believe those pants shown to PR in that photograph WERE the black velvet pants worn to the White's - JBR soiling yet again and possibly the straw that broke etc.. as far as PR was concerned.
This seems unlikely, consider Patsy's interview:

Detective Tom Haney talking to Patsy (looking at photos)


TH: "It's a bathroom."

PR: "This one looks like someone went to the potty and didn't flush."

TH: "Okay, is that out of the ordinary?"

PR: "Not terribly. No."

TH: "Did you take JonBenet to the bathroom prior to putting her to bed?"

PR: "No."

TH: "Would she have gotten up during the night and gone to the bathroom?"

PR: "Possibly."

TH: "If she did, would she have flushed?"

PR: "Not necessarily."

......and later..........


PR: "This is JonBenet's floor, her pants."

TH: "Do you recall those particular pants, when she would have worn those last?"

PR: "Not for sure. Probably recently because they are dropped in the middle of the floor, but I don't remember exactly."

TH: "They are kind of inside out."

PR: "Right."

TH: "Here is a close up of it. It appears they are stained."

PR: "Right."

TH: "Is that something JonBenet had a problem with?"

PR: "Well she, you know, she was at the age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job."

TH: "Did she have accidents , if you will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed to just bed wetting?"

PR: "Not usually, no, huh-uh. That would probably be more from just not wiping real well."

TH: "Okay. Do you know how long those would have been in that position on the floor in there?"

PR: "It depends when she wore them last."

TH: "Again, do you recall?"

PR: "I don't remember."

TH: On Christmas day were you in that bathroom at all?"

PR: "Very likely, but I can't say for sure."

TH: "Had you been in there that day, would you have done something with them?"

PR: "Well, I got, you know -- that night I got -- I know I got the long johns for her out of that bathroom."

TH: "Right, out of one of the drawers in there."

PR: "Yeah."

TH: "Do you recall seeing those on the floor that night when you got the -- "

PR: "No."

TH: "underwear?"

PR: "They could have been there. I don't know."

TH: "Is it possible that some point during the night she would have gotten up and put those on or thrown them down there or changed in some way?"

PR: "I just -- I can't imagine that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's."
The black velvet pants that Patsy removed were discovered in the bedroom, not the bathroom. Otherwise alike the pineapple and size-12's we would have Patsy saying she removed the black velvet pants in the bedroom on arriving home, but these being discovered in the bathroom, would generate a Gotcha!

This may be the velvet pants?

The status of JonBenet's underwear when she visited the White's is not recorded, although from memory Patsy supervised her dressing?

Note how Patsy is re-iterating her claim to fetching the longjohns from JonBenet's bathroom, so fetching any pair of size-6's would have presented no problem for her.


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  • #150
rashomon,
The world is an interesting place, your disagreement without reference to any evidence simply means you have no argument, and alike your Ramsey rationale employed here before e.g. panic mode, you offer no analysis. This means nothing except to fellow travellors, in future for your benefit I will shorten my replies to accord with your view that the Ramseys were in panic mode!
UKGuy,

With all due respect, but I have as many arguments as you to support my theory, which btw I have posted here in detail. Still waiting to read yours, time line and all.
The same goes for the other RDIs here who have ALL offered convincing explanations re different evidentiary items, like e. g. the size 12 Bloomies.

I "offer no analysis", you say. JFYI, I tried to analyze and build in every single evidentiary item into my theory.

I don't know what your criteria for analysis are, but to me, analytical comptence shows itself by acknowledging that certain forensic findings may allow for different interpretations, and you seem to have some difficulty with that.
For example, I vividly recall your theorizing that the stager of the scene left urine stained underwear on the victim, without you even considering the possibility of post-mortem release. Time and again this was pointed out to you, and time and again you ignored it.

So to get back to the discussion: from the fact that John's shirt fibers were found in the victim's underwear, one can infer that he redressed her, but it may well have been Patsy who told him to do so.
For Patsy may not have paid attention at all to how big the Bloomies were - down in the basement, she could just have told John to get a Wedesday pair from the gift box without even being aware of the huge difference in size.

If John alone chose the size 12 Bloomies, what are the odds that he knew where they were kept?

So you cannot confirm that JonBenet was at any time prior to her death wearing a pair of Bloomingdales, size-6, Wednesday pants? There were 15 pairs of underwear available in JonBenet's panty drawer, two of which may have been a Wednesday day of the week e.g. 2 seven day sets and one other pair?
If I could ask LE one question, it would be:
When you collected JonBenet's size 4-6 underwear, was there a set of size 6 Bloomies among them?
If yes, was the set complete?
If not, which day(s) of the week was (were) missing?

This sure would make our discussion here far easier. Too bad it only says 'girl's underwear' in the search warrants, and none of the books on the case adresses this crucial issue either.
 
  • #151
UKGuy,

With all due respect, but I have as many arguments as you to support my theory, which btw I have posted here in detail. Still waiting to read yours, time line and all.
The same goes for the other RDIs here who have ALL offered convincing explanations re different evidentiary items, like e. g. the size 12 Bloomies.

I "offer no analysis", you say. JFYI, I tried to analyze and build in every single evidentiary item into my theory.

I don't know what your criteria for analysis are, but to me, analytical comptence shows itself by acknowledging that certain forensic findings may allow for different interpretations, and you seem to have some difficulty with that.
For example, I vividly recall your theorizing that the stager of the scene left urine stained underwear on the victim, without you even considering the possibility of post-mortem release. Time and again this was pointed out to you, and time and again you ignored it.

So to get back to the discussion: from the fact that John's shirt fibers were found in the victim's underwear, one can infer that he redressed her, but it may well have been Patsy who told him to do so.
For Patsy may not have paid attention at all to how big the Bloomies were - down in the basement, she could just have told John to get a Wedesday pair from the gift box without even being aware of the huge difference in size.

If John alone chose the size 12 Bloomies, what are the odds that he knew where they were kept?


If I could ask LE one question, it would be:
When you collected JonBenet's size 4-6 underwear, was there a set of size 6 Bloomies among them?
If yes, was the set complete?
If not, which day(s) of the week was (were) missing?

This sure would make our discussion here far easier. Too bad it only says 'girl's underwear' in the search warrants, and none of the books on the case adresses this crucial issue either.



rashomon,
I "offer no analysis", you say.
You offered none, nor any evidence in your reply to my post, other than the Ramsey's psychological state of mind, which amounts to mere speculation.

I don't know what your criteria for analysis are,
Coherence with the evidence, interpretation can become alike biblical exegesis, individually arbitrary.

For example, I vividly recall your theorizing that the stager of the scene left urine stained underwear on the victim, without you even considering the possibility of post-mortem release. Time and again this was pointed out to you, and time and again you ignored it.
Ignore it. Post-mortem or not, the existence of the urine-stains and that Coroner Meyer states she was wiped down is central to my claim that the stager must have known they were urine-stained or soaked and ignored this?

So to get back to the discussion: from the fact that John's shirt fibers were found in the victim's underwear, one can infer that he redressed her, but it may well have been Patsy who told him to do so.
John is on record as stating he never undressed JonBenet on returning from the Whites, he and Burke had some quality time together, also Patsy is on record as stating John never dressed or bathed JonBenet prior to leaving for the White's, so those fibers from his shirt place him at the crime-scene in a manner that Patsy is not! My interpretation is that John's contribution to redressing and wiping down JonBenet precedes Patsy's, and Patsy's replies to questions regarding the size-12's displays her own ignorance, something she need not do if she knew that the size-12's originated on JonBenet as the result of her suggestion.


For Patsy may not have paid attention at all to how big the Bloomies were - down in the basement, she could just have told John to get a Wedesday pair from the gift box without even being aware of the huge difference in size.
Patsy most likely never knew about the size-12's, they were buried beneath the longjohns by the time she took part in the staging. She could have told John to fetch a pair from JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer or fetched a pair herself, she states she was in the bathroom for the longjohns, so why end up with a pair of pants intended for a girl twice JonBenet's age, when you are trying to stage a kidnapping? Why does Patsy have no credible answers for the investigators regarding the size-12's if she was the instigator, this is yet another aspect to the PDI that does not add up!

If John alone chose the size 12 Bloomies, what are the odds that he knew where they were kept?
Quite high if they were an xmas-gift since John was assisting with organizing and transferring the gifts, then again they may not have been wrapped, they may have been in one of Patsy's drawers in the master-bedroom, where John went looking for any underwear?

My main theory is simple: JDI, then effected some form of staging, probably with the intention of dumping JonBenet outdoors, Patsy rejected this, so John said OK you fake a wine-cellar homicide, Patsy effects the ligature and garrote, and wrist restraints along with the duct-tape, then places JonBenet into the wine-cellar. This explains the two but apparent contradictory strands of evidential staging.

If I could ask LE one question, it would be:
When you collected JonBenet's size 4-6 underwear, was there a set of size 6 Bloomies among them?
If yes, was the set complete?
If not, which day(s) of the week was (were) missing?

This sure would make our discussion here far easier. Too bad it only says 'girl's underwear' in the search warrants, and none of the books on the case adresses this crucial issue either.
I agree, but we know that the stager had 15-pairs of size-6 underwear to chose from in JonBenet's panty drawer, and any pair of those would have been sufficient to avoid the discussion around why JonBenet came to be wearing a pair of 12-year old girls underwear at the alleged scene of her death?
 
  • #152
That evidence list shows "black velvet SHEET". I highly doubt there was a black velvet sheet. That must be an error, or a misidentification. It could have been "black velvet pants".
 
  • #153
That evidence list shows "black velvet SHEET". I highly doubt there was a black velvet sheet. That must be an error, or a misidentification. It could have been "black velvet pants".

I noticed that too and a black comforter. I wonder if this would've been the bed linens off the Ramsey's bed?
 
  • #154
I don't know,I thought the linens on their bed were blue? I'll go to acandyrose.com and search.
 
  • #155
Acandyrose shows the Rs bed- no black velvet there. JAR's bedroom had dark green/white stripe, JonBenet's had pink and floral, BR had blue. The "black velvet sheet" had to be something else. It could have been the pants, and seemed in a photo to be just fabric, and was misdescribed.
 
  • #156
  • #157
  • #158
  • #159
thx Deedee :)
 
  • #160

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