Pat Brown compares Lisa case to other cases.

[~n/t~]

Foolproof? I'm not sure how reliable someones memory is after drinking a fair amount of alcohol.

If two peoples statements contradict each other, how do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth? I would say by evidence other than their statements that can be used for corroboration.

I know nothing about the Mccann case and what kind of evidence is available in comparison to this case.

I'm not sure if body language is reliable enough to show positively if someone is lying or not because I know little about it. Can it be used in a court of law?

JMO.

IMO, I've never seen a body language expert give testimony at a trial so I'm going to have to say it's inadmissable and so are polygraphs.

Cadaver dogs, however, are admissable in some cases but they better have other overwhelming evidence to support the dog testimony.

Sadly, they did in that case we won't mention and it still wasn't enough to convict.

 

[KsStormy]

Don't miss Pat Brown's comments r/t Munchausen's and Deborah on her excellent site:

Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

However, with missing children getting so much media attention, having your child "kidnapped" is like winning the lottery for an MSBP woman.

BBM
This post gave me chills.IMO she is LOVING all the attention, as well as the "power" she is feeling on social media, with all the Facebook pages that allowed open discussion about the case mysteriously getting "shut down". The way she thinks she is above talking to the KCPD and local media, lawyers up in such a "big" way... too bizarre.

I have never followed ANY other case, and the similarities pointed out in this thread comparing Lisa's to other missing/murdered babies are mind blowing. I would imagine that the Fort Bragg incident is what got her so interested in these cases, as she has stated she followed a lot of them.
:moo:

 

[saggymoon]

It looks to me from this post that your not willing to discuss this further. That's fine and ok with me. I apologize if I offended you in anyway with my statements and questions about your posts.

you didnt offend me we are just exchanging views

 

[saggymoon]

Cadaver dogs are not peer reviewed science. Most jurisidictions set their bar for legally admissable scientific evidence at the peer review level.

<modsnip>

i never said cadaver dog alerts were admissible court evidence, they do make your ears prick though surely especially if they ONLY alert to the last place a missing child was seen doh

Its strange how some people are talking about courts and admissible evidence in these cases we all know truth and court cases can be chalk n cheese, no? Duh

 

[saggymoon]

It is not proven at all in the McCann case, that's a completely unsupported assertion. There are no more answers in that case than there are in this.

I think people who have jumped to conclusions in both cases, (regardless of what conclusions they have jumped to), are doing so on the basis of emotion and not evidence.

That is quite an exagerration is it not, emotion? What has emotion to do with conflicting and contradictory statements, not only ones own but between ones own and others and blatant lies and spin doctory.do you think lee rainbow of the british police was emotional when he advised the portugues to look at the parents because their statements were contradictory?

have u not noticed the mccann lies? You have missed out on the circus. Anyway the mother of a missing child who was left alone with her two two yr old siblings for at least half hour stretches out of ear and eyeshot 120m away in a purposely unlocked apartment on every night of a weeks holiday has been made ambassador for the missing peoples charity and is also alledgedly now being put forwardfor a british obe, u couldnt make it up really could you?

 

[Cappuccino]

i never said cadaver dog alerts were admissible court evidence, they do make your ears prick though surely especially if they ONLY alert to the last place a missing child was seen doh

Its strange how some people are talking about courts and admissible evidence in these cases we all know truth and court cases can be chalk n cheese, no? Duh

I'm not just talking about legal admissability but also about the standard of science involved. There are some good reasons why the scientific method demands such things as double blind tests and peer review before they accept anything.

The law, quite sensibly, follows the advice of professionals in the field before they decide where to set the benchmark for legal admissability. That's why cadaver dogs, along with luminol and polygraph tests, are seen as merely presumptive tests which need supporting evidence before they can be used in a court.

 

[KsStormy]

Does anyone know if Pat Brown has made any recent comments or observations regarding this case?

 

[Whisperer]

I respectfully disagree. If the reports are true that Deborah was faking multiple miscarriages, this is a symptom of factitious disorder and Munchausen's is a variation of this disorder (Factitious Disorders, DSM-IV-TR #300.16, 300.19). Taking a child to the doctor for fake illnesses is only ONE of many possible symptoms of Munchausen's.
Read below about the symptom called pseudologia fantastica. (A missing child is an extremely fascinating story as evidenced by all of us reading here on Websleuths.)

From the reference below:

"Typically the patient presenting at the emergency room with a factitious illness has a personality disorder with prominent borderline, masochistic, and at times antisocial traits.

One variety of this severe pattern is known as &#8220;Munchausen&#8217;s syndrome,&#8221; named after the famous German baron who traveled from city to city, telling fascinating tales about himself. Patients with Munchausen&#8217;s syndrome often display what is known as &#8220;pseudologia fantastica,&#8221; or a capacity for spinning out elaborate tales, at times intermixed with some actual facts, which listeners often find, sometimes despite themselves, intriguing and fascinating.

A particularly loathsome variation on factitious illness is the use of a &#8220;proxy.&#8221;

http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI_278/Other/Clerkship/Didactics/Readings/Factitious Illness.pdf

Pensfan
______
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

Pensfan, the first time I heard PB bring this up, it fit for me. Sometimes, we just get a "gut" reaction and, in this case, I think Pat B. may be right.

It is MO that DB suffers from a Personality disorder (clusterB) and is most likely an alcoholic.

 

[brit1981]

Can I just ask about Pat brown. I have heard that she just has a master's degree in criminal justice and read some books, and is not actually affiliated to a university, the FBI, a police force etc, and has never actually been active in helping the police solve a case and that she just speaks on some TV programmes and blogs? Is this true or is she an actual criminlogist with a PhD, and experience of assisting the police? I read that in the US there are no rules about who can call themselves a profiler is this true?

Going back to the converstaion about the dogs. the dog used in the mccann case was not a cadaver dog he was a victim recovery dog, and was trained to alert to all bodily fluids including old blood. Someone had bleed profusly in the flat a few weeks before madeleine disappeared. But the same dog also made false alerts in anothe rhigh profile case in Jersey, and in the UK victim recovery dogs have alerted and the perso turn up alive. Recently they also failed to alert to a body in a home when they initially searche dit. They did alert two days later, but by that time the police were able to smell it too. They did not alert anywhere else in the house apart from where the body was found and it is unlikely the victim died where she was found. A dog handler in the casey anthony case also said in court her dog would alert to bodily fluids including things like nail clippings.

 

[Donjeta]

Where is the claim coming from that DB faked multiple miscarriages? I don't remember hearing that. If it involved faking early miscarriages how would anybody know for sure apart from people in the medical field who examined her and can't speak about it if they do?

Not really seeing MSBP here because for one, I got the notion that Lisa was a pretty healthy child, there was nothing reported about tons of hospital visits or strange medical history or harrowing accidents that she just barely survived thanks to the attentive parents. (Again, the doctors couldn't talk about that but I think parents out for attention would.) She just had the cold which was pretty normal and then they reported on the web page months later that she might possibly have an undiagnosed heart condition because someone in the family has one. But it was just an afterthought, and I think a serious MSBP parent would have been pestering doctors about any and all illnesses that might possibly run in the family while the child was there, and not just have a relatively healthy well developed baby with no mysterious unexplained symptoms go missing.

Another thing that doesn't say MSBP to me is the way Lisa disappeared. The Münchausen parent would probably prefer to get attention because they're the only thing that is standing between their poor suffering child and death, so valiantly fighting for their survival, against all odds, sitting on their bedside day and night praying for recovery and saving the child's life finding all kinds of mysterious symptoms that the doctors just overlooked. They want to be the hero, not the villain in the story they weave.

Getting attention because you were the parent who got so drunk you don't even remember if you saw your baby after six o'clock doesn't really fit that storyline.

:cow:

 

[Donjeta]

Can I just ask about Pat brown. I have heard that she just has a master's degree in criminal justice and read some books, and is not actually affiliated to a university, the FBI, a police force etc, and has never actually been active in helping the police solve a case and that she just speaks on some TV programmes and blogs? Is this true or is she an actual criminlogist with a PhD, and experience of assisting the police? I read that in the US there are no rules about who can call themselves a profiler is this true?

According to her PR blurb on her own website the Masters in Criminal Justice information is correct. It is mentioned that she offers pro bono profiling assistance to law enforcement, attorneys etc. but there is nothing about how extensive her experience is and no mention of any affiliation with any particular LE agency. Most of the site is about the various media appearances.

The blurb of her book The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths on Amazon says she's analyzed "many dozens" of cases. Maybe someone has read that book and can tell if it was as part of the investigative team or as a hobby?

http://www.criminalprofilerpatbrown.com/bio.html
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Profiler-Hunting-Serial-Killers-Psychopaths/dp/1401341268/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1"]Amazon.com: The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths (9781401341268): Pat Brown, Bob Andelman: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m9Riqi5cL.@@AMEPARAM@@51m9Riqi5cL[/ame]

 

[redheadedgal]

"just" a master's? wow. that's quite the insult:

http://www.sheprofilers.com/pressrelease.html

 

[redheadedgal]

and as for assisting LE?

What is the typical workday of a profiler like?

I am sitting at my desk or at a table in an interrogation room of a police department with no windows studying the photos and reading the police reports. Hours go by, days go by... finally, I put together my scenario and detail my conclusions in a report. I am totally intrigued by my work, and inside my head there are many films running of the murder scene, the possible suspect or suspects and the victim or victims.

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/05/24/pat-brown-interview/


word to the wise: don't believe everything you hear... do your own research and find out the truth.

 

[brit1981]

sorry red I am from the UK, a master's would mean nothing here when it comes to being considered an expert unless one had years of active experience. In this field a person would need a phd, postdoc work, articles published (I mean journal articles not media articles), university position or some sort of research centre position. We do not use the term profiler, so it would mean someone was a criminologist or criminal psychologist. Someone with a masters in criminal justice and has read a few books would never be considered a criminologist nor qualified to make assesments of mental health (in fact even if someone was an expert and they and not met the person and read their notes they would only talk about a condition in general). Possibly that soemthign to do with our laws on reporting of ongoing cases, as well as the professional rules.

I read the article, it does sound very odd to me, just getting a masters and being considered a criminal expert. But I guess it is a cultural thing. I did not read anywhere in her interview where she had actively worked with the police on a case. She did not name any she had actively worked on, nor anyone she had helped catch. I had read another interview with her on msn, but it was rather unflattering in a veiled sort of way (it was here I read that anyone could call themselves a criminal profiler in the US) so I was wondering if it was correct as it just seems strange to someone from the EU.

 

[Cappuccino]

So which cases has Pat Brown worked on then? For LE I mean, not for the Nancy Grace show.

 

[KsStormy]

Here is a radio show Pat Brown did on the Casey Anthony case & Lisa Irwin case:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage/2011/10/23/levi-page-show

 

[brit1981]

So which cases has Pat Brown worked on then? For LE I mean, not for the Nancy Grace show.

I do not know I cannot see any references to cases she has worked on with LE. I was just confused because it is so different in the Uk. From what I can see it is a bit like someone getting a law degree here, especially a non-qualifying one, and then being considered a lawyer and an expert on law.

Ks,
So did she work with LE on these cases then, did she give testimony in the anthony trial?

Is it also true Brown is no longer going to be on the Nacy Grace show, and that she went on fox but managed to offend people in regards to colorado.

 

[brit1981]

Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

Sorry just read this, and had to comment. What a load of ill-informed rubbish. Miscarriages are not easy to fake, and she cannot claim that a baby dying of SIDs is a sign of a mental health problem in the mother and imply the mother actually caused the death. Not one bit of independent research has ever demonstrated this.
I fail to see how a criminal justice masters has qualified her to make declarations about personality disorders, psycopathy, miscarriages, SIDs, and mental health.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't think she said that a baby dying of SIDS is a sign of a mental health problem. What it means is that some seriously disturbed moms kill their babies and try to pass it off as SIDS. It's been known to happen.

I expect it would be hard to fake a miscarriage that fools medical professionals after a thorough examination but it doesn't have to be like that, one doesn't have to go to the doctor, one can just tell a sob story to friends and relatives. No one is going to demand to inspect the evidence.

Not sure what any of it has to do with Lisa Irwin though.

 

[brit1981]

I don't think she said that a baby dying of SIDS is a sign of a mental health problem. What it means is that some seriously disturbed moms kill their babies and try to pass it off as SIDS. It's been known to happen.

I expect it would be hard to fake a miscarriage that fools medical professionals after a thorough examination but it doesn't have to be like that, one doesn't have to go to the doctor, one can just tell a sob story to friends and relatives. No one is going to demand to inspect the evidence.

Not sure what any of it has to do with Lisa Irwin though.

Someone posted it above and I just read it. It is a huge jump she is making, and her claims are incorrect, yet people appear to be basing their opinions on what she says. has she actually actively worked on this case - interviewed the mother looked at her medical notes etc. It is also a huge jump to get a masters in criminal justice and then claim to be able to disgnose mental health and causes of death (unnatural death via SIDs) without ever speaking to a person who reading their notes. Even actual medical rpofessionals require these to make diagnoses.