Patsy Ramsey

[andreww]

Ah, but I’m not suggesting that Mrs Ramsey’s “memory was only weak on insignificant items.” And, I think your interpretation of her answers are as of as your interpretations of my posts often are.
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AK

Did she know what time she woke up?
Did she know how long it took her to get dressed?
Did she know what she did in the laundry room?
Did she know if she touched the note?
Did she know anything about the pineapple?
Did she know anything about the size 12s?
Did she know anything about the flashlight?
Did she know about the santa bear?
Did she know about the torn up note?
Did she know when the last time JB bathed?
Etc...

I could go on for hours, but most people already get it.

 

[andreww]

Lies are easy.

I got out of bed. I went to Jonbenet’s bedroom. There was a note on her bed. She was gone. I called the police.
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AK

What did you do when you got out of bed? What time was it? What time were you scheduled to leave in order to catch your flight? ...

You can't just make up a lie, you have to account for every second of your time. You need to tell that story accurately then start from the beginning and tell it again. You may have been watching a lot of Andy Griffith Show reruns or something, but LE can generally spot a made up story very quickly.

 

[Anti-K]

Did she know what time she woke up?
Did she know how long it took her to get dressed?
Did she know what she did in the laundry room?
Did she know if she touched the note?
Did she know anything about the pineapple?
Did she know anything about the size 12s?
Did she know anything about the flashlight?
Did she know about the santa bear?
Did she know about the torn up note?
Did she know when the last time JB bathed?
Etc...

I could go on for hours, but most people already get it.

Most people already get what?

Are you saying that Mrs Ramsey lied in her answers to these questions?
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AK

 

[andreww]

Most people already get what?

Are you saying that Mrs Ramsey lied in her answers to these questions?
...

AK

Yes I am. At the very least she was being very evasive about everything she was asked.


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[mochii]

I think Patsy does have some involvement within the case. I know this would not be the same for everyone, but not being able to remember day to day activities, schedules, etc. would be hard to do on an ordinary day. I can't remember anything I did last Tuesday. Yet this was no ordinary day for their family. It was a horrific nightmare. I'd wager to say it would be ingrained into their memory. I can remember clear as day when I was a kid and my younger sister was hospitalized. I can recount almost every detail from when I found out she was in the hospital, but on the most tragic day of the Ramsey's life, they can't even assemble a rough recollection of what they did that morning? It's very hard for me to believe that....

It's much harder to remember a lie than it is the truth. Especially as time goes on, you will forget the little details of that lie and the more of it that comes unraveled the easier it is to say, "I don't know" to avoid the lie being found out. (Sidenote: I want to say this goes for any minor or major lie someone tells, but obviously I am applying it to this case, and to Patsy). You would think it'd be easy to remember a lie as it'd be a story one could make up, but as andrew posted, there are way too many intricate details that one may not even think of. There is so much that goes into it. Add that in with the stress, the tragedy, the media, and moving forward, your mind will definitely mix up a few things.

 

[Anti-K]

Yes I am. At the very least she was being very evasive about everything she was asked.


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Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. I’m much more interested in facts and evidence.
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AK

 

[andreww]

Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. I’m much more interested in facts and evidence.
...

AK

Come on, pretty much every investigator that has worked on this case has commented at one point or another about inconsistencies and evasiveness in Patsy's interviews. Are you honestly going to sit here and put it all down to memory loss due to trauma? And not taking a suspect's police interviews as "evidence" isn't exactly what I'd call good sleuthing.

 

[andreww]

Most people already get what?

AK

That Patsy lied or was evasive about every single question asked of her. Getting any kind of answer was like pulling teeth. I will admit that her lawyers told her "don't lock yourself in to anything, always say "I think", "it probably" "maybe I" or "possibly I" as much as possible. When in doubt, you don't remember".

 

[DeeDee249]

I think Patsy does have some involvement within the case. I know this would not be the same for everyone, but not being able to remember day to day activities, schedules, etc. would be hard to do on an ordinary day. I can't remember anything I did last Tuesday. Yet this was no ordinary day for their family. It was a horrific nightmare. I'd wager to say it would be ingrained into their memory. I can remember clear as day when I was a kid and my younger sister was hospitalized. I can recount almost every detail from when I found out she was in the hospital, but on the most tragic day of the Ramsey's life, they can't even assemble a rough recollection of what they did that morning? It's very hard for me to believe that....

It's much harder to remember a lie than it is the truth. Especially as time goes on, you will forget the little details of that lie and the more of it that comes unraveled the easier it is to say, "I don't know" to avoid the lie being found out. (Sidenote: I want to say this goes for any minor or major lie someone tells, but obviously I am applying it to this case, and to Patsy). You would think it'd be easy to remember a lie as it'd be a story one could make up, but as andrew posted, there are way too many intricate details that one may not even think of. There is so much that goes into it. Add that in with the stress, the tragedy, the media, and moving forward, your mind will definitely mix up a few things.

I agree. I had a tragic death in my family, too- a young cousin murdered by an armed intruder. That was over 30 years ago. I remember what I wore when I got the call, what my daughter (then 7) was wearing when I brought her next door so our neighbors could keep her while I went to the morgue with relatives (so her own parents didn't have to identify her body, when she had been shot in the head at point-blank range) and remember every detail of going to the store for cleaning supplies so we could clean the blood and brain matter from the furniture and walls because the police don't do that, and the landlord already had her apartment rented and wanted it clean. I remember every detail of that day- going to the morgue, every little detail about her apartment (including where the brains and blood spattered). Every detail of how the neighborhood gypsies came through the first-floor windows to take every single piece of furniture (including the tufted chair she had been shot in, her blood still pooled in the little wells of the tufted fabric). People are animals. Truly.
Police got the guy- turned out he knew her roommate (she was also shot-in the mouth- but survived). She was taken from the hospital by her parents back to Canada for her medical care, after identifying her attacker. Then she refused to come back to testify, so police let him go. Luckily my father and uncles were all union officials in New Jersey, so they had lots of friends. These "friends", in true New Jersey style, decided to "take care" of what the police could not, and the perp was dead 2 weeks later. Sweet justice.

 

[Detective Pinkie]

I don’t completely disagree with you here.

I think much more is remembered about the morning (and preceding day/evening) than is given credit for. It’s the details that are not necessarily remembered with clarity. This seems not unusual. One might remember where they were on 9/11, but if questioned in detail, I’m sure one would discover many, many things about such a day not remembered in detail. And, of those things remembered – how many are accurate memories? I don’t know.

Stress, anxiety, panic, shock, etc can all have – DO have – an impact on how memories are formed stored; and, even something as simple as how a question is phrased can affect how memories are retrieved. This is a tricky and complicated business.
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AK

And I don't think you are completely wrong. They are going to forget things and there would be things that the are confused about because of shock an panic. I am just interested in what they are confused or vague about. Neither is sure who checked which bedroom when. Really? They managed to remember for DOI. They are not sure who picked up the note, Patsy may have, John probably did because it was moved. (And I am still trying to find out who later denied touching the note, if it happened.) Really, you are not sure if you picked up or were handed the note? I wonder if there is a connection between the vagueness and the events that probably didn't happen as stated if RDI. I wonder if their memories are more solid when speaking about things we can be pretty sure did happen. John is pretty clear about what happened when he found the body, but not what happened the first time he went to the basement.

 

[OliviaG1996]

And I don't think you are completely wrong. They are going to forget things and there would be things that the are confused about because of shock an panic. I am just interested in what they are confused or vague about. Neither is sure who checked which bedroom when. Really? They managed to remember for DOI. They are not sure who picked up the note, Patsy may have, John probably did because it was moved. (And I am still trying to find out who later denied touching the note, if it happened.) Really, you are not sure if you picked up or were handed the note? I wonder if there is a connection between the vagueness and the events that probably didn't happen as stated if RDI. I wonder if their memories are more solid when speaking about things we can be pretty sure did happen. John is pretty clear about what happened when he found the body, but not what happened the first time he went to the basement.

BBM: I think it's a bit telling that JR remembers exactly what happened when an eyewitness was around (FW accompanying him when he found JBR's body), but when he was by himself or with another Ramsey, things got a little more foggy.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, they talked to the media before being formally interviewed. We all know that.

But, the real misrepresentation here is saying that they talked to the media before they talked to BPD.

They called BPD when the ransom note was discovered, invited them into their home and spent hours with them, answering questions, offering information, being observed, etc long before they talked to the media. And, that is fact. There is NO misrepresentation on this point.

This is not a meaningless or insignificant point, and the information gathered by BPD (see warrants/affidavits for examples) was more than enough to start their investigation, and the questions asked/answered would not have been much different from what would have been asked/answered had the real nature of the crime been known.
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AK

Oh, I have NO doubt the questions would have been different! Moreover, maybe you haven't heard, but the whole point of taking formal statements is to do it while the person's memory is still fresh (and before they can have a chance to rehearse). It might tell you something that even Lou Smit said that if he had been on the case that first day, he would have taken the Rs down to the police station immediately after the body was found, and that they could either go willingly or he'd force them to go. (Even a stopped watch, and all that...)

 

[questfortrue]

I agree. I had a tragic death in my family, too- a young cousin murdered by an armed intruder. That was over 30 years ago. I remember what I wore when I got the call, what my daughter (then 7) was wearing when I brought her next door so our neighbors could keep her while I went to the morgue with relatives (so her own parents didn't have to identify her body, when she had been shot in the head at point-blank range) and remember every detail of going to the store for cleaning supplies so we could clean the blood and brain matter from the furniture and walls because the police don't do that, and the landlord already had her apartment rented and wanted it clean. I remember every detail of that day- going to the morgue, every little detail about her apartment (including where the brains and blood spattered). Every detail of how the neighborhood gypsies came through the first-floor windows to take every single piece of furniture (including the tufted chair she had been shot in, her blood still pooled in the little wells of the tufted fabric). People are animals. Truly.
Police got the guy- turned out he knew her roommate (she was also shot-in the mouth- but survived). She was taken from the hospital by her parents back to Canada for her medical care, after identifying her attacker. Then she refused to come back to testify, so police let him go. Luckily my father and uncles were all union officials in New Jersey, so they had lots of friends. These "friends", in true New Jersey style, decided to "take care" of what the police could not, and the perp was dead 2 weeks later. Sweet justice.

DeeDee, I am sorry you went through something that horrible. I’ve no doubt that your memories were sorrowfully etched that day.

Andrew also nails it in describing the coaching of the legal team prior to the interviews, to make certain that the Rs were not locked into any statements.

I just also wanted to mention there’s a big difference between being an eyewitness and being a victim or involved in the event. It’s recognized that high stress might impair an eyewitness’s capability to recall details. Too, there are folks who wish to be important by providing information to authorities and who may “misremember” details. However, the disparity between being an eyewitness and being a victim is significant. There’s even a scientific basis for what happens in our brains when we are victims of trauma. For anyone wanting to know how this occurs - Something very traumatic triggers activity in the amygdala of the brain, which is involved in emotional learning and memory. This then activates production of a protein called Arc in the neurons of the hippocampus, the brain region involved in long-term memory. Scientists think the Arc protein helps store certain memories by strengthening synapses, the connections between neurons in the brain, also explaining why trauma details can remain in long-term memory and be recalled decades later.

When I was six, I was nearly kidnapped. As you and mochii recount, all the details of it are still remembered.

 

[BBB167893]

Question to AK and all others.

If sexual assault with an object took place at the death, concurrently, immediately prior but not earlier. the questions needed to be answered:
-what position JB was at the moment of sexual assault, was it the same as at the garroting, or they were turning her as a doll back and forth?
-why her white pants was urine stained but not blood stained more profusely when at the death it all came out of . Her pants were on her and it would be more than several droplets of blood.
-where the rest of the blood on the carpet if sexual assault were at, concurrent and immediately prior to garroting but on the alive girl. It should be much more blood, if her heart was pumping
-was the particles of the cloth found on the carpet if some thick cloth was added for protection against blood
-when the wiping took place, if she had already her pants back when dying face down.


I do not see the sexual assault happened on the alive girl at, concurrent, immediately prior, bc it`s inconsistent with the factual evidence of her pants and carpet with urine stain but without blood , except several drops inside the underwear

If assault took place right after the death, after the not bloody urine came out on the carpet, after turning her back face up, assaulting the body with blood stopped running in her tissues, then it looks consistent to the crime scene evidence. Then it was enough to have just fabric glove(tan color perhaps, or dark ?) to collect small amount blood and wipe the body. Consistent to me, my opinion only.

I sure hope I fall into the "all others" category.

1) Yes, as I see it, the killer would have needed to turn JB back and forth. Specifically, she would have to be on her back in order for the sexual "assault" to take place, as the location of the injury (the 7:00 position) is consistent with a right-handed person going down and to the left. Then, they would have to turn JB onto her stomach to apply the garrote. Lou Smit's theory (which is Patient Zero for IDIs) had both happening at the same time, with JB conscious and fighting the cord to boot. In order for all that to work, not only would they have to have JB's lower half facing up while her upper half was facing down, but in order to tighten and loosen the garrote as part of his game while molesting her, he'd need four arms. Anybody hear of any Hindu gods bopping around Boulder in December '96?

2) As to why there wasn't more blood from the "assault," I could give a few reasons. Most likely, even though she was still technically alive, her body was shutting down due to shock from the head blow. Also, due to the very light nature of the sexual contact (which is a tip-off for me right off, IMO). There's another reason, but unless someone insists, I'd rather not mention it.

 

[tovarisch]

I sure hope I fall into the "all others" category.

1) Yes, as I see it, the killer would have needed to turn JB back and forth. Specifically, she would have to be on her back in order for the sexual "assault" to take place, as the location of the injury (the 7:00 position) is consistent with a right-handed person going down and to the left. Then, they would have to turn JB onto her stomach to apply the garrote. Lou Smit's theory (which is Patient Zero for IDIs) had both happening at the same time, with JB conscious and fighting the cord to boot. In order for all that to work, not only would they have to have JB's lower half facing up while her upper half was facing down, but in order to tighten and loosen the garrote as part of his game while molesting her, he'd need four arms. Anybody hear of any Hindu gods bopping around Boulder in December '96?

2) As to why there wasn't more blood from the "assault," I could give a few reasons. Most likely, even though she was still technically alive, her body was shutting down due to shock from the head blow. Also, due to the very light nature of the sexual contact (which is a tip-off for me right off, IMO). There's another reason, but unless someone insists, I'd rather not mention it.

SuperDave, your sense of humor never fails.

Concerning 2. The very light nature of the sexual contact at the death with following steps taken to hid from the public view any traces of it has no sense if the another reason that you did not want to mention, existed prior to death. Why bother and then hid it thoroughly?

 

[BBB167893]

If RDI: with months to prepare, and guidance from hired help – lawyers, etc – I think that we should see a little more consistency between versions told. More certainty with answers given.

Well, as I see it, that's precisely the issue, Anti-K: their interviews do seem like they've been practiced. It's only when the interviewers drop something on them that their stories become "inconsistent."

Hey, don't take my word for it. Michael Kane, anyone:

When 'the system' falls short

By Charlie Brennan, News Staff Writer
December 18, 2001

Kane spent many hours questioning John and Patsy Ramsey about their daughter's murder. He said he believes they have yet to give him the straight story.

"When I met with them, I never felt that they were genuine," Kane said. "I always felt like I was talking to a press secretary who was giving responses with a spin.

"I always felt like their answers were very careful and, in some cases, scripted. And that caused me a lot of concern."

For anyone who hasn't read it, check this out:

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/04032001ramseyenquirer.htm
Pressed for further details of that night, Patsy responded like a woman who has had lawyers in her life for too many years: "It was 4 1/2 years ago. I have not rehearsed or reread my previous statements."

And that's not the half of it! Someone read this and tell me that Patsy Ramsey wasn't sticking her tongue out and going "Nyah nyah!" at LE!

 

[BBB167893]

If these people are innocent, than surely they were in a state of panic and shock, so, I don’t really understand why you think that they would/should remember things from that morning with any clarity or certainty.
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AK

Anti-K, I can remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. In fact, I can remember it BETTER than yesterday!

 

[BBB167893]

Again, their memory loss is very selective. The can remember irrelevant details very specifically, yet when it comes to details related to the crime they seem to always draw a blank.

No kidding. Patsy can recall clearly how many times she BLINKED in a given moment?

 

[BBB167893]

Yes I am. At the very least she was being very evasive about everything she was asked.

Agreed. Look, folks, let's call a spade a spade here. As Americans, the Ramseys had a right not to talk to the police. If they exercise that right, who are any of us to say they're wrong? Even if we think they had a DUTY to their daughter to tell what they knew as soon as they knew it, there's a good reason for those rights.

But last I checked, there is NO right to lie. If they don't want to talk, we shouldn't judge them. If they lie, we should judge them.

 

[BBB167893]

Come on, pretty much every investigator that has worked on this case has commented at one point or another about inconsistencies and evasiveness in Patsy's interviews. Are you honestly going to sit here and put it all down to memory loss due to trauma? And not taking a suspect's police interviews as "evidence" isn't exactly what I'd call good sleuthing.

Your response to that was much more eloquent than mine would have been, andreww. That's precisely it: it NOT just your opinion.