Patsy Ramsey

  • #2,561
  • #2,562
Found the answer to my question


I verified that the chapter was sent to the media from none other than Darnay Hoffman - - spoke to more than one reporter today about it. They all said it was absolute garbage and they don't believe for a minute that any publisher will touch it.

http://www.webbsleuths.com/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2011&forum=DCForumID101#1

I hate to be the one to tell you, FrankieB, but the "person" you quoted is FAR from reliable!
 
  • #2,563
from original post # 920
15% of children still release urine in their bed at age of 5 or 6. That is not common.

Furthermore, there is evidence of fecal issues in the household. Interesting that there are five locations where fecal matter is located in the home at TOD which is a critical point during the investigation. The locations are, in no particular order, as follows:

1) Smeared outside of the basement bathroom on the wall

2) Smeared inside the pants located on JBs bathroom floor

3) Smeared on a box of chocolates in JBs bedroom

4) Smeared inside a pair of pj bottoms that appeared to be BRs on JBs bedroom floor

5) Unflushed matter in the toilet of JBs bathroom

That is not common.

Just discovered this list thanks to Otg. I am shocked...many questions. Just something I would like to understand first...these incidents can't be dated, however they were all present when LE analyzed the house? Is that correct? Was there really so much fecal matter all over that house? Were these people immune to the smell and sight of such? Re: the items of clothing. This is a bit confusing, were they stained or smeared? Two very different things. I'm struggling to imagine how all these incidents went unnoticed by the Ramseys to such extent they just left them there??

Greetings, FrankieB. We appreciate fresh thoughts and opinions on JonBenet's murder investigation.

This is a bit confusing, were they stained or smeared?

These 5 items are listed as smears. They were NOT stains. Those are two different things so let us not commingle them. The smears were actual fecal product; not to be confused with JonBenet's underwear that remained stained after washing. The fecal smears were noted during forensic processing of the home around the TOD. The R home was nasty. JR fussed about its untidiness. We've discussed the condition of the second floor which likely smelled like a daycare diaper pail.

WC JBR was inside at time of pic taken.jpg

This photo was taken by the first on scene police officers. JonBenet's body was behind that cellar door when the photo was snapped. JBR hated the basement and refused to go down there without someone with her.
 
  • #2,564
I hate to be the one to tell you, FrankieB, but the "person" you quoted is FAR from reliable!

Ok thanks for telling me Dave, I also discovered the book was never published because of legal intervention, so all we have is that first chapter.
I don't doubt Patsy was a strange person but the more I analyze the chapter the more I struggle to believe Patsy confiding her sex life to the house keeper. What about you?

Greetings, FrankieB. We appreciate fresh thoughts and opinions on JonBenet's murder investigation.


These 5 items are listed as smears. They were NOT stains. Those are two different things so let us not commingle them. The smears were actual fecal product; not to be confused with JonBenet's underwear that remained stained after washing. The fecal smears were noted during forensic processing of the home around the TOD. The R home was nasty. JR fussed about its untidiness. We've discussed the condition of the second floor which likely smelled like a daycare diaper pail.

attachment.php


This photo was taken by the first on scene police officers. JonBenet's body was behind that cellar door when the photo was snapped. JBR hated the basement and refused to go down there without someone with her.

Hi DeDee

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder why the adults allowed the walls to remain stained, the house keeper could easely have cleaned them as one of them claimed they did in the past.

Allegedly Burke stoped his fecal issues when Patsy switched her attention to Jonbenét, but I guess this evidence clearly shows the habits kept escalating and never actually stopped. I personally think it points at Burke because I don't imagine Jonbenét doing it.
 
  • #2,565
from original post # 920




Greetings, FrankieB. We appreciate fresh thoughts and opinions on JonBenet's murder investigation.



These 5 items are listed as smears. They were NOT stains. Those are two different things so let us not commingle them. The smears were actual fecal product; not to be confused with JonBenet's underwear that remained stained after washing. The fecal smears were noted during forensic processing of the home around the TOD. The R home was nasty. JR fussed about its untidiness. We've discussed the condition of the second floor which likely smelled like a daycare diaper pail.

View attachment 99592

This photo was taken by the first on scene police officers. JonBenet's body was behind that cellar door when the photo was snapped. JBR hated the basement and refused to go down there without someone with her.

Reading about untidiness in the Ramsey home is so hard for me to understand, although I know time and circumstances change people. I knew the Paugh family when we were kids. Patsy is about 7 years older than me. Her sister Pam is my brother's age. I remember going to the Paugh home because Mrs Paugh helped my mom with our school carnivals. I remember them all being nice. They had a nice home in the area of our town that had the best houses in those days. I can't find the thread now but awhile back I read posts about how nasty Mrs Paugh was. I asked my mom about it in case my little girl memories were clouded. But, my mom had the same impressions I did. Nice family, nice house. I was 11 yrs old when Patsy won Miss WV and I remember being in awe of how glamorous she was. My 11 yr old self doesn't want to believe Patsy had anything to do with JonBenet's death or a cover-up but I think the family's behavior was odd after the murder. Too many unexplained things, such as the ransom note and appearing to hinder the investigation. As parents I felt they should have done everything possible to find their daughter's killer. I hate to believe it but in my heart I feel the only reason for their behavior would be to cover for someone very close to them. Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this. There are so many for JonBenet and I've never posted on one of her's until now.
 
  • #2,566
Thanks, for the heartfelt post, wvcountygirl.
 
  • #2,567
Ok thanks for telling me Dave, I also discovered the book was never published because of legal intervention, so all we have is that first chapter.
I don't doubt Patsy was a strange person but the more I analyze the chapter the more I struggle to believe Patsy confiding her sex life to the house keeper. What about you?


Hi DeDee

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder why the adults allowed the walls to remain stained, the house keeper could easely have cleaned them as one of them claimed they did in the past.

Allegedly Burke stoped his fecal issues when Patsy switched her attention to Jonbenét, but I guess this evidence clearly shows the habits kept escalating and never actually stopped. I personally think it points at Burke because I don't imagine Jonbenét doing it.

The reason all of the fecal smears and the unpleasant condition of the home in general being of importance is b/c this is the evidence that Det. James Kolar found in reviewing the murder investigation materials as it is the basis for the book that he authored, Foreign Faction - Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?

James Kolar did not write the book in order to make a cool million dollars although he does jab Patsy, in the book's title, for failing JBR. In fact, Det. James Kolar self published his book which ate into his retirement income. JK brought forth a good amount of evidence as highlighted inside his book so that we could understand the dynamics and dysfunction at the heart of the JBR case. Many jumped the fence and landed on BDI after reading his explanations and conclusions. The permanence of the COD of JBR sits squarely on Patsy's shoulders.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html

"Kolar had access to 60,000 pages of evidence, .... interviews, forensic reports, grand-jury records, crime-scene photos and video."

"K.... was hired by Boulder D.A. Mary Keenan Lacy in the spring of 2004"

"K.... says he left the D.A.’s office in March 2006"

"In 2008, a few months before she left office, Lacy apologized to the Ramseys, saying, “I believe it is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime.”
 
  • #2,568
attachment.php


This photo was taken by the first on scene police officers. JonBenet's body was behind that cellar door when the photo was snapped
Quite a few of the photos in the house give me the willies. I think its the camera angles....plus knowing she was murdered/assaulted there. That photo takes the cake. If only that person had thought, "Hey, I should go ahead and open that door and get a pic of the wine cellar".


JBR hated the basement and refused to go down there without someone with her.

THis will always make me sick. The fact they would place her body in the one area of the house that scared her is beyond evil. An abomination. It shows how little they actually cared about her.

Yeah I know they want her body as far away as possible and the wine cellar provides that but just the fact they wouldn't take her feelings into consideration is a level of dysfunction I hope to never encounter in life.
 
  • #2,569
Here we have the infamous blue suitcase that belonged to JAR and held the contents of a medium blue colored bedding and the adult copy of Dr Seuss nudity book. JR admitted to moving the blue suitcase from the second floor near where the washer/dryer stackable was located, down to the basement. JR would not admit to leaving the suitcase in the area inside this basement room, near the window. Thus, furthering his story of an intruder did it.

Basement vandalized JBR.jpg

No idea how this happens. Owner possessed far too much stuff. Although at first capture, I thought basement room had been vandalized, as one can read from the pic description, only to later discover that this was normal for the R home as proven via sworn testimony. jmho, PR was lazy.

I've seen a few snapshots of the interior of Patsy's home during her youth. The traditional formal living room held glass cabinets filled with sparkling tiaras and shiny trophies that the Paugh girls brought home. PRs father held good retirement at Union Carbide which afforded him the affordability to step in and save JRs flailing co in ATL. He and JR were nearly inseparable in Boulder as sales soared.

Then, the lights went out. The precious body of JonBenet was found on the floor inside the wine cellar in the dark, filthy, or in the least unkempt, basement of the R home.
 
  • #2,570
Here we have the infamous blue suitcase that belonged to JAR and held the contents of a medium blue colored bedding and the adult copy of Dr Seuss nudity book. JR admitted to moving the blue suitcase from the second floor near where the washer/dryer stackable was located, down to the basement. JR would not admit to leaving the suitcase in the area inside this basement room, near the window. Thus, furthering his story of an intruder did it.

attachment.php


No idea how this happens. Owner possessed far too much stuff. Although at first capture, I thought basement room had been vandalized, as one can read from the pic description, only to later discover that this was normal for the R home as proven via sworn testimony. jmho, PR was lazy.

I've seen a few snapshots of the interior of Patsy's home during her youth. The traditional formal living room held glass cabinets filled with sparkling tiaras and shiny trophies that the Paugh girls brought home. PRs father held good retirement at Union Carbide which afforded him the affordability to step in and save JRs flailing co in ATL. He and JR were nearly inseparable in Boulder as sales soared.

Then, the lights went out. The precious body of JonBenet was found on the floor inside the wine cellar in the dark, filthy, or in the least unkempt, basement of the R home.

That picture isn't shown enough. Most people see the closeup showing the suitcase. In this picture, you see two chairs sitting across from one another. The first time I saw that, I could imagine two adults(you know who) sitting there that night/morning wondering what in the hell are they going to do now?

You're right...that house was a complete mess.
 
  • #2,571
Ok thanks for telling me Dave, I also discovered the book was never published because of legal intervention, so all we have is that first chapter.
I don't doubt Patsy was a strange person but the more I analyze the chapter the more I struggle to believe Patsy confiding her sex life to the house keeper. What about you?

To me, and I want that emphasized, Patsy didn't seem like the kind of person who would consciously admit that something was wrong. I might believe that she'd unwittingly reveal problems if she thought no one was watching or listening too closely.
 
  • #2,572
I'm starting to have second thoughts about the Annie Get Your Gun story.

If Patsy were truly capable of acting so crazy, would the people in her surroundings truly have risked having her on live television? It's a huge risk in my opinion.

Just a thought and I'm completely open to comments against it: could she have been just an eccentric woman? eccentric is very different from crazy.
 
  • #2,573
I'm starting to have second thoughts about the Annie Get Your Gun story.

If Patsy were truly capable of acting so crazy, would the people in her surroundings truly have risked having her on live television? It's a huge risk in my opinion.

A lot of what they did was a risk, FrankieB. A lot of the TV appearances I saw, Patsy seemed drugged. That can make a difference.

Just a thought and I'm completely open to comments against it: could she have been just an eccentric woman? eccentric is very different from crazy.

OTOH, my pop used to say that eccentric is "crazy + money."
 
  • #2,574
Reading about untidiness in the Ramsey home is so hard for me to understand, although I know time and circumstances change people. I knew the Paugh family when we were kids. Patsy is about 7 years older than me. Her sister Pam is my brother's age. I remember going to the Paugh home because Mrs Paugh helped my mom with our school carnivals. I remember them all being nice. They had a nice home in the area of our town that had the best houses in those days. I can't find the thread now but awhile back I read posts about how nasty Mrs Paugh was. I asked my mom about it in case my little girl memories were clouded. But, my mom had the same impressions I did. Nice family, nice house. I was 11 yrs old when Patsy won Miss WV and I remember being in awe of how glamorous she was. My 11 yr old self doesn't want to believe Patsy had anything to do with JonBenet's death or a cover-up but I think the family's behavior was odd after the murder. Too many unexplained things, such as the ransom note and appearing to hinder the investigation. As parents I felt they should have done everything possible to find their daughter's killer. I hate to believe it but in my heart I feel the only reason for their behavior would be to cover for someone very close to them. Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this. There are so many for JonBenet and I've never posted on one of her's until now.

Good insights, WV, and I agree, it does seem hard to believe someone so focused on appearances could ever be considered slovenly. But based on personal experiences, I didn't find it hard to believe at all.

I had an aunt (deceased now), who outwardly was very well-to-do. She wasn't glamorous in the way PR was, but she always had new, fashionable clothing, lots of jewelry and makeup, nice house, etc. Friends, neighbors, and coworkers would all picture her home to be immaculate just like she seemed to be.

In truth, she never cleaned, and beyond the main rooms of the house, it was a mess. She only let my brother and I stay in the living room and den areas when we visited because the upstairs was so unkempt. She actually had a spare bedroom that was full of clothing she had only worn once - she wouldn't do laundry, so she'd wear something once, toss it in the room, and then buy new clothes!

She didn't have as much money as PR, but she was more upper class with no children and could afford to live that way. Her parents (my grandparents) were extremely neat, cleanly people and my mom is that way, too, but for whatever reason my aunt was not.
 
  • #2,575
THis will always make me sick. The fact they would place her body in the one area of the house that scared her is beyond evil. An abomination. It shows how little they actually cared about her.

Yeah I know they want her body as far away as possible and the wine cellar provides that but just the fact they wouldn't take her feelings into consideration is a level of dysfunction I hope to never encounter in life.

That is a great point, singularity, and I share your feelings. Although it is still important, I think, to consider that her body was wrapped in a blanket and she was redressed to some degree. There was care taken with the placement of her body that is typically exhibited when someone who loved the person is responsible, and that juxtaposes the disrespect displayed in putting her body in such a place she otherwise hated. That is exactly what leads me to believe the body placement was meant to divert attention away from those who cared for her being considered suspects.
 
  • #2,576
That is a great point, singularity, and I share your feelings. Although it is still important, I think, to consider that her body was wrapped in a blanket and she was redressed to some degree. There was care taken with the placement of her body that is typically exhibited when someone who loved the person is responsible, and that juxtaposes the disrespect displayed in putting her body in such a place she otherwise hated. That is exactly what leads me to believe the body placement was meant to divert attention away from those who cared for her being considered suspects.

Welcome, reintarnation.

Good points. Let me ask: do you think the original intent was to let the police find her? Or that John meant to "find" her all along? Or was the intent to move her, either before the 911 call was made or after the police had left?
 
  • #2,577
Welcome, reintarnation.

Good points. Let me ask: do you think the original intent was to let the police find her? Or that John meant to "find" her all along? Or was the intent to move her, either before the 911 call was made or after the police had left?

Thanks for the greetings. Long time lurker, but had to start jumping in! :)


My thought is that JBR's placement in the basement was meant to keep her body hidden enough that Rs could reasonably say they searched and couldn't find her. It wasn't an obvious place, but they knew eventually she would be found. LE didn't conduct a thorough search of the home after arriving, which is what I would expect and possibly what the Rs expected as well. Based on JR's behavior around that time (the anxiousness, stealing away from the group, etc.), I imagine he was debating what to do once the plan derailed a bit - keep going on with the kidnapping show and leave JBR down there, or discover her body himself. In my opinion, PDI and JR was complicit with the cover-up, and in that case it might have been eating him up to keep waiting knowing that JBR's body was down there just rotting away. There was so much staging, I find it hard to believe that they didn't want LE to find her the way she had been left. If JR finding JBR's body was not part of the plan, then it was at least a bonus for them in the sense that the crime scene was contaminated and evidence left by JR could be justified.
 
  • #2,578
Thanks for the greetings. Long time lurker, but had to start jumping in! :)


My thought is that JBR's placement in the basement was meant to keep her body hidden enough that Rs could reasonably say they searched and couldn't find her. It wasn't an obvious place, but they knew eventually she would be found. LE didn't conduct a thorough search of the home after arriving, which is what I would expect and possibly what the Rs expected as well. Based on JR's behavior around that time (the anxiousness, stealing away from the group, etc.), I imagine he was debating what to do once the plan derailed a bit - keep going on with the kidnapping show and leave JBR down there, or discover her body himself. In my opinion, PDI and JR was complicit with the cover-up, and in that case it might have been eating him up to keep waiting knowing that JBR's body was down there just rotting away. There was so much staging, I find it hard to believe that they didn't want LE to find her the way she had been left. If JR finding JBR's body was not part of the plan, then it was at least a bonus for them in the sense that the crime scene was contaminated and evidence left by JR could be justified.

That's how I figure it, too. Either JR just got cold feet or he had second thoughts and decided on "Plan B."
 
  • #2,579
If Patsy were truly capable of acting so crazy, would the people in her surroundings truly have risked having her on live television? It's a huge risk in my opinion.
Give the patient(Mrs. Ramsey) 40-50 mg of Valium or 5-6 mg of xanax(or a benzo cocktail), wait 20-30 minutes, and she's "ready for prime time". The only risk is if she gets too relaxed and let's something slip but an even greater risk would be not sedating her at all and the mask flies off on national tv. So they went the safe route.....doped her up.
 
  • #2,580
That photo was snapped before JBR was found? I don't believe it. The light is on, gleaming under the closed door. When Fleet White and JR entered the room, it was dark and JR flipped the light switch 'on'.

I've always felt the timing of the statement exonerating the Family was purposefully timed after Patsy's death because the perp was DEAD.
 

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