Patsy Ramsey

[gramcracker]

IMO LHP was under the impression that she had a friendly employer/employee relationship with PR and therefore hesitated to speak less than positively about her. after all, she had no reason to doubt that she would continue to work in the home. they had the kind of relationship where she could ask for a payroll advance of $2000 and PR didn't say "no." she said "sure. I'll leave a check on the counter for you." LHP may have felt she would be needed more than ever, given the state that PR would be expected to be in after losing her child. it makes sense that cleaning and laundry would not suddenly become PR's personal responsibilities and the household would need to be maintained for the family's continuing comfort

after learning that she was named as a suspect that LHP by PR, LHP realized that she owed no special favors and began to speak more freely and honestly. IMO that's a reasonable interpretation of her credibility (or lack thereof)

 

[TaylurRose02]

I’ve seen experts identify Mr Ramsey and even Karr as the author, and I know that most people looked at by BPD fell into the same category as Mrs Ramsey. It’s easy to find some expert willing to say that Mrs Ramsey wrote the note, or didn’t write the note, or couldn’t be excluded, etc; but, so far the only experts accepted by the courts are those experts accepted by Carnes. None of the experts accepted by the court identified Mrs Ramsey as the author. So, I think that my original claim remains true: the belief that Mrs or Mr Ramsey wrote the note has not been confirmed by credible experts, and I’m just not interested in other’s opinions.
.

Without the ransom note you could have a dead child anywhere in the home. If all they had to do was explain a dead child then all they had to do is lie. No self-incriminating evidence, no contradiction between kidnapping and body in house, no crime scene, no police, etc. There is no reason for the Ramseys to even think of faking a kidnapping if they weren’t going to dispose of the body.

As to where or how they would dispose of the body and the risk involved – who cares? They didn’t dispose of it and there is no evidence to support the argument that they planned to dispose of it; in fact, the evidence – body hidden in basement – contradicts the claim. No disposal = no kidnapping.

If RDI why would the Ramseys call the police BEFORE calling the Whites, etc? Calling the police first means the police arrive first and possibly prevent others from entering, etc. Calling the Whites, etc first supports RDI, calling the police first does not.

What difference does it make what was said later? That morning when the police arrived and when the Ramseys, if RDI, needed them to believe an intruder had entered the home the Ramseys said that the home was secure thus making their imaginary intruder’s entry appear a mystery; more than a mystery: unlikely.

IMO LHP had a big influence on the grand jury’s decision; however, LHP said a lot of things, and in the beginning and iirc they were favorable things. There are several reasons to question her credibility. Regardless, there is nothing in what she or any other Ramsey insider has ever said that makes the Ramseys out to be the kind of people who could commit such extreme acts of violence on a child.
Etc.

No worries, I don’t take anything you’re saying as being mean. And, I hope you understand that I am not saying that there isn’t any evidence that supports the RDI position. I’m just underwhelmed by that evidence.
...

AK

There's been tons of experts who claim various people are authors, and I don't think it's possible for all of the experts to come to a solid conclusion on who wrote the note. I understand what you meant by experts now, and it is true that the six experts accepted by Carnes didn't fully believe PR was the author, but rather their findings were that they couldn't identify her or eliminate her as the author. There are various credible experts who have identified her as the author as I have listed above, it's more of a matter of opinion on which one you personally feel is correct. I respect the testified opinions, but the fact that she wasn't ruled out as the author by them only strengthens my personal stance with Epstein's findings.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't believe her death was supposed to happen in the first place. I don't think John knew until December 26th either. I think Patsy panicked and fabricated everything after the head bash. I also don't think it's possible for an 8.5 inch skull fracture to be explained innocently and she knew that. Whether she was aware that JB was dead or not is besides the point. If JB was alive, she could tell someone what happened. If she was dead, PR was responsible. Appearance was everything to her. Which brings me back to her faith. The note is littered with religious incentives and I'm happy to list them if you'd like. If you've read Shapiro's stance on the case then you'll understand where I'm coming from. He says it much better than I can.

Why would an intruder write the note in the first place? Why would they introduce themselves as a "group of individuals" or a "foreign faction" and ransom the family's dead daughter in the basement for such a small amount of money? If they wrote it prior to the murder then why did they continually write "she dies" instead of "she will die?" "She dies" is indicative that they already knew she was dead. An intruder as the author contradicts the DNA and their own ransom instructions which leaves no known motivation for the killing. PR as the author makes more sense, IMO.

I didn't question the disposal, you did. I was explaining why they didn't. Same goes for IDI though. I've seen many IDI theorists speculate that she was to be taken out the window in the suitcase or some other way, but something went wrong. Whose to say the same didn't happen if PR attempted it? As to what went wrong, I have no clue. I don't think she could bear to dispose of her even if she thought she could have to be honest. I think she counted on the very theory IDI's count on in the sense that they didn't get her out of the home. The fact that the body was found in the basement also contradicts the intruder because the note stated she was kidnapped and under the watch of two gentlemen. So it goes both ways.

I'm not questioning the time frame of the phone calls, I'm questioning the fact that their friends were called right after police when the note stated that she would be killed if they made any contact what so ever. Police I understand calling, but not people the Ramsey's obviously didn't trust considering they turned on them soon after. I think she called their friends to place distance between herself and the crime. Calling their friends before or after police doesn't matter to me. She needed police there for obvious reasons. What matters is that the friends were called despite the ransom notes instructions and then they sent their son to the Whites home when a supposed group of men had their daughter? The only way I could see anyone risking that is if they knew JB was already passed and there was no danger.

The importance of a suspect changing their story in a murder case is kind of a big deal and they did it frequently. John told police on the morning of December 26th that he checked the locks, NOT Patsy. After learning what happened, he changed his story. Like I said, I don't believe JR knew until December 26th which explains his behavior that day imo. "JR: Well, I think she called the Fernies and the Whites and just screamed at them to come over." I think Patsy was attempting to distance herself from the crime in front of an audience who knew her as the put together devoutly religious woman who could never commit a crime. I also think she knew JR would catch onto what happened and wanted an escape where she could continue mourning.

I thought her testimony was fine, but okay. Here's another from Linda Wilcox.

LINDA WILCOX: Okay, first and foremost, the major...Patsy's major job was to make sure nobody annoyed John. One of the things that really annoyed him was lots of noises, you know, (couldn't understand) noises, things like that. One day, I was there, it was during the summer, so Patsy and the kids were in Michigan, it was the summer of '95, probably June or July, I was in the master bedroom, upstairs, on the 3rd floor, vacuuming the floor, which was my job. I was finishing up. John Ramsey had come in during that time, probably through the garage, went up the stairs, turned off the vacuum, turned around and walked away.
PETER BOYLES: He didn't say anything to you?
LINDA WILCOX: Not a word.
PETER BOYLES: Just turned it off and walked away?
LINDA WILCOX: The look on his face said it all.
PETER BOYLES: What were you doing, other than your job?
LINDA WILCOX: Nothing, I was vacuuming the floor.
PETER BOYLES: And he came over, turned off the vac, didn't say anything to you and walked away.
LINDA WILCOX: Right. He didn't like the sound of the vacuum.

LINDA WILCOX: Okay. It was the summer of '95. It was probably two or three weeks before they left for Michigan. JonBenet was 4, getting ready to turn 5 that August, and her and Burke both caught the chicken pox. I was there cleaning in the kitchen. Burke was upstairs itching like mad. He had them all over, he was in bed with the t.v. in his room, playing videos. JonBenet was in the t.v. room, sitting at a small table, in her nightgown, doing something quiet, like coloring. The child had a fever, she's sitting there coloring, Patsy is in the kitchen on the telephone with the doctor. I figured, oh, she's going to call the doctor to find out what to give the kids and the conversation went, "well JonBenet's got chicken pox and she's got these spots on her face and we need to have a photo shoot in about 3 days. Is there anything you can give her to get rid of the spots? This is the child she loved with the whole of her heart?

"Like, JonBenet, for example. She got no affection at all when she was little except maybe from their nanny. Until she started to perform or produce, she was basically ignored. At one point, John was complaining because he had to get her dressed one morning because Suzanne had been out of town. He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own."

" I was talking to Suzanne that next week and she said, Yeah, I went to see the kids and she was going to take JonBenet to McDonalds because JonBenet loved McDonalds. It was like her favorite thing in the whole world. And Suzanne told me, I just heard the saddest thing. She'd gone and gotten the kids and she said, hey, I'm going to take you guys to McDonalds. JonBenet looked at her stone cold and said, "Eating McDonalds makes you fat."

"I was working for them when Patsy got sick with cancer and after she recovered. During that time, Nedra moved in and was caring for the children. Then Patsy had what she called her divine intervention and was cured of her cancer. After Patsy finished decorating the house, Burke became her favorite child. She spent all of her time at his school. He was her first project. At that time JonBenet was too young to do anything Spectacular. She hardly got Patsy's attention. Suzanne Savage was in charge of her. JonBenet wasn't in school yet, and her world revolved around adults, whereas Burke's life revolved around his friends. Then, when ]onBenet started school, she became Patsy's second project. The children really were like projects to her. I'm afraid that after JonBenet became Patsy's focus, she also became her obsession. I think that to Patsy; nothing and no one had the right to be imperfect. Everything had to fit Patsy's image of what it should be. So JonBenet was under immense pressure to fit the image Patsy had of her new project. When the police interviewed me, they asked if the kids wet the bed a lot. I said yes. Detective Harmer asked if I thought that was unusual, and I had to say, "Not really. Not at that age." Burke wore Pull-Ups until he was six, and JonBenet always wore them. But I also told the police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy's attention. And that was when JonBenet became a chronic bed wetter. But you know if you have little kids around that age, they are bed wetters. When I left in September of 1995, they were both still wetting their beds."

Linda maintained her view of the Ramsey's so I don't know how you can discredit her testimony. I've placed the parts of her interview that indicate oddity in bold for easier reading.

 

[Anti-K]

Hi TaylurRose02,

I wouldn’t try to discredit Wilcox, but I don’t see anything in what she’s said that makes the Ramseys out to be the kind of people who could commit such extreme acts of violence on a child. I’m sure we can find all sorts of negative commentary if we look for it (I can hardly imagine what people might say about me!), but none of it adds up to what we would need to see if RDI were true.

I know you’re not looking at the time frame for when the calls were made (I’m going through your post backwards), but I think that the time frame is what’s important. If they wanted or hoped that the Whites, etc could be some sort of diversion (or whatever) than they would have had to call them first.

There are no threats on the first page of the ransom note, Mrs Ramsey made her calls without knowing about them. She was in a panic.

I too have seen the IDI speculation regarding a failed attempt to remove the victim, perhaps in the suitcase. I don’t see this as being believable.

And, yes, it was you that mentioned the disposal, I simply replied to that. You wrote, “Again where would they dispose of the body at? Where would they have gotten a spare car trunk that wouldn't be linked back to them? They lived close enough to neighbors that they reported seeing the lights on in the home. How would anyone have taken a body (or entered the home for that matter) without being seen or heard? Not to mention there were dogs in the neighborhood. How would anyone have gotten past them as well without alerting them?” http://tinyurl.com/makjocn

Why would an intruder write the note in the first place? Who knows? I don’t think there’s much chance of answering that question without actually knowing who really wrote it. Why would the Ramseys write the note? I know what RID say, but what RDI say is nonsensical. The only reason that the Ramseys – or anyone – would ever consider a ransom note is if they had disposed of the body. And, that is why the question of disposal is so important.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

I know you’re not looking at the time frame for when the calls were made (I’m going through your post backwards), but I think that the time frame is what’s important. If they wanted or hoped that the Whites, etc could be some sort of diversion (or whatever) than they would have had to call them first.

I fail to see why the Whites/Fernies would have to be called first in order to serve as a diversion. their immediate and prolonged presence was what mattered, and that's how it transpired. they were notified and summoned following the 911 call - and after quickly arriving they indeed provided a diversion, meaning that it was slightly less obvious that PR/JR were not speaking to each other with so many people in the home. it was noticed and remarked upon with nine people excluding LE milling around, so how much more obvious would the lack of interaction have been with only the Rs and the two victim advocates present? the advocates stayed only a short while during the 6am - 1pm time period. IMO the Rs had no prior knowledge that victim advocates even existed but they were icing on the cake. the more the merrier!

from the LE POV, only one aspect of the order of the summons matters - was 911 called before the personal friends? yes. so that aspect of the ruse was properly handled

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

There was no collusion between John and Patsy at any point.

 

[otg]

I disagree. As many here have pointed out, a person as severely injured as JBR can be breathing so shallowly as to appear dead. Out of curiosity I just googled "people in morgue still alive" and got over 9.8 million results. Even of only 1% of the stories are true, that's still 98,000 people. But results get duplicated, so let's cut that by, say, 4. That's still 24,500 people who were alive but showed no signs of life. Some of these people were hospital patients and thought to be dead by more than one staff member. Presumably, they checked for a pulse and evidence of respiration. There's no reason to assume the Ramseys were better observers.

Going back a ways, during the 18th and 19th centuries people recognized the possibility that signs of life could be faint enough to avoid detection, and some were buried in safety coffins, in case they were pronounced dead while still alive. These were coffins fitted with a rope attached to a bell above the grave, which a prematurely buried person could ring to summon help. These people were not considered crazy, by the way. Even George Washington asked not to be buried until he had been dead for two full days!

If may seem like a simple enough thing but, no, you don't always know whether someone is alive or dead.

This is completely off-topic for the forum, but along the subject of your post. Wikipedia has a page on different designs of “safety coffins” which were not too uncommon (as you say) during the 18th and 19th centuries. Poe wrote several stories that dealt with the subject of premature burial, the most notable of which was named (appropriately) The Premature Burial. I saw a movie loosely based on the story with Ray Milland (scared the hell outta me when I was just a kid). The main character in the story has catalepsy and therefore a fear of being buried alive while in a catatonic state. Despite all his safeguards to prevent it, well... you can just figure out what happens to him, especially considering the author of the story.

It has been said that Anne Carter Lee (mother of General Robert E. Lee) suffered from cataleptic spells that caused her to fall unconscious and become rigid. During one of those bouts, she was alleged to have been mistakenly buried in the family’s private cemetery on their property. A servant later heard a noise and told the family who then dug her up and saved her.

It has been speculated that the preoccupation with this fear is what led to several terms in our language: dead ringer (one buried alive who revived and rang his bell), saved by the bell (having been saved because of the safety bell installed on the coffin), and graveyard shift (the task of the person who sat by a newly buried coffin during the night to make sure he heard no bells ring out). While the supposed origin of each of these phrases is interesting and entertaining, they each most likely have another origin (for instance, saved by the bell actually comes from the sport of professional boxing).

Going now even further on a tangent... Did you know that John Duns (Scotus), the philosopher/theologian died unexpectedly in 1308. When his tomb was later opened, it was reported that his body had been found outside of his coffin with his hands scraped and bloody. It was assumed that he had awakened and attempted to escape from the tomb. Some of the ideas of Scotus were in opposition to those of another philosopher/theologian -- William of Ockham (most well known for Occam’s razor). Two centuries after his death, Scotus (John Duns -- not the US Supreme Court) and his followers came under criticism from other opposing philosophers. He and his followers (who were called Dunses) were ridiculed and their name came to be used as a derogatory word for someone incapable of scholarly thought. This is the etymology of the word “dunce”.

BTW, Meara, I want to compliment you on your earlier post about deductive/inductive reasoning. I didn’t take logic in college (though I wish I had), but I appreciate logical arguments. Tell me if the following logical argument works.

So let’s say (hypothetically speaking) I make a statement saying:

1. People who have a habit of projections and judgment towards others are usually fat, ugly, uneducated losers in life who get off on schadenfreude because they are bitter.
2. In making this statement, I am myself making a projection and a judgment toward others.
3. Therefore, having done so, I must myself be a fat, ugly, bitter, and uneducated loser.

Is that how it works?

 

[bettybaby00]

This is completely off-topic for the forum, but along the subject of your post. Wikipedia has a page on different designs of “safety coffins” which were not too uncommon (as you say) during the 18th and 19th centuries. Poe wrote several stories that dealt with the subject of premature burial, the most notable of which was named (appropriately) The Premature Burial. I saw a movie loosely based on the story with Ray Milland (scared the hell outta me when I was just a kid). The main character in the story has catalepsy and therefore a fear of being buried alive while in a catatonic state. Despite all his safeguards to prevent it, well... you can just figure out what happens to him, especially considering the author of the story.

It has been said that Anne Carter Lee (mother of General Robert E. Lee) suffered from cataleptic spells that caused her to fall unconscious and become rigid. During one of those bouts, she was alleged to have been mistakenly buried in the family’s private cemetery on their property. A servant later heard a noise and told the family who then dug her up and saved her.

It has been speculated that the preoccupation with this fear is what led to several terms in our language: dead ringer (one buried alive who revived and rang his bell), saved by the bell (having been saved because of the safety bell installed on the coffin), and graveyard shift (the task of the person who sat by a newly buried coffin during the night to make sure he heard no bells ring out). While the supposed origin of each of these phrases is interesting and entertaining, they each most likely have another origin (for instance, saved by the bell actually comes from the sport of professional boxing).

Going now even further on a tangent... Did you know that John Duns (Scotus), the philosopher/theologian died unexpectedly in 1308. When his tomb was later opened, it was reported that his body had been found outside of his coffin with his hands scraped and bloody. It was assumed that he had awakened and attempted to escape from the tomb. Some of the ideas of Scotus were in opposition to those of another philosopher/theologian -- William of Ockham (most well known for Occam’s razor). Two centuries after his death, Scotus (John Duns -- not the US Supreme Court) and his followers came under criticism from other opposing philosophers. He and his followers (who were called Dunses) were ridiculed and their name came to be used as a derogatory word for someone incapable of scholarly thought. This is the etymology of the word “dunce”.

BTW, Meara, I want to compliment you on your earlier post about deductive/inductive reasoning. I didn’t take logic in college (though I wish I had), but I appreciate logical arguments. Tell me if the following logical argument works.

So let’s say (hypothetically speaking) I make a statement saying:

1. People who have a habit of projections and judgment towards others are usually fat, ugly, uneducated losers in life who get off on schadenfreude because they are bitter.
2. In making this statement, I am myself making a projection and a judgment toward others.
3. Therefore, having done so, I must myself be a fat, ugly, bitter, and uneducated loser.

Is that how it works?

:floorlaugh: you really do know how to enliven a discussion!

As always your "research" is greatly appreciated

 

[questfortrue]

:floorlaugh: you really do know how to enliven a discussion!

As always your "research" is greatly appreciated

Unexpectedly something new to learn here, via someone’s research!

And always been a fan of subtle humor.

 

[Meara]

This is completely off-topic for the forum, but along the subject of your post. Wikipedia has a page on different designs of “safety coffins” which were not too uncommon (as you say) during the 18th and 19th centuries. Poe wrote several stories that dealt with the subject of premature burial, the most notable of which was named (appropriately) The Premature Burial. I saw a movie loosely based on the story with Ray Milland (scared the hell outta me when I was just a kid). The main character in the story has catalepsy and therefore a fear of being buried alive while in a catatonic state. Despite all his safeguards to prevent it, well... you can just figure out what happens to him, especially considering the author of the story.

It has been said that Anne Carter Lee (mother of General Robert E. Lee) suffered from cataleptic spells that caused her to fall unconscious and become rigid. During one of those bouts, she was alleged to have been mistakenly buried in the family’s private cemetery on their property. A servant later heard a noise and told the family who then dug her up and saved her.

It has been speculated that the preoccupation with this fear is what led to several terms in our language: dead ringer (one buried alive who revived and rang his bell), saved by the bell (having been saved because of the safety bell installed on the coffin), and graveyard shift (the task of the person who sat by a newly buried coffin during the night to make sure he heard no bells ring out). While the supposed origin of each of these phrases is interesting and entertaining, they each most likely have another origin (for instance, saved by the bell actually comes from the sport of professional boxing).

Going now even further on a tangent... Did you know that John Duns (Scotus), the philosopher/theologian died unexpectedly in 1308. When his tomb was later opened, it was reported that his body had been found outside of his coffin with his hands scraped and bloody. It was assumed that he had awakened and attempted to escape from the tomb. Some of the ideas of Scotus were in opposition to those of another philosopher/theologian -- William of Ockham (most well known for Occam’s razor). Two centuries after his death, Scotus (John Duns -- not the US Supreme Court) and his followers came under criticism from other opposing philosophers. He and his followers (who were called Dunses) were ridiculed and their name came to be used as a derogatory word for someone incapable of scholarly thought. This is the etymology of the word “dunce”.

BTW, Meara, I want to compliment you on your earlier post about deductive/inductive reasoning. I didn’t take logic in college (though I wish I had), but I appreciate logical arguments. Tell me if the following logical argument works.

So let’s say (hypothetically speaking) I make a statement saying:

1. People who have a habit of projections and judgment towards others are usually fat, ugly, uneducated losers in life who get off on schadenfreude because they are bitter.
2. In making this statement, I am myself making a projection and a judgment toward others.
3. Therefore, having done so, I must myself be a fat, ugly, bitter, and uneducated loser.

Is that how it works?

Oh no! You left out 'gets off on schadenfreude'! Now it'll never work, Bullwinkle!

:moose:


(ahem)

Is that how it works? Well, you've got the idea for sure. It works as an inductive flavored logical argument if and only if 1 is true, and we tidy up the statements and parallels between statements.

As a cleverly made argument against spiteful blanket judgments, it works just fine as is. :cheers:

Thanks for the fascinating diversions. Duns Scotus and the Dunses/Dunces I knew about, but not about his attempt to escape the grave, or Ann Carter Lee's near miss, either. Yikes! I'm an adult, and these things still give me the shivers.

For you and anyone who might wish to know..... The term 'dead ringer', meaning an exact duplicate, actually comes from horse racing (much on my mind as the Belmont Stakes approaches. Come on, California Chrome!!)! A ringer was a lookalike horse substituted to rig a race, and 'dead' is used in the sense of 'exact' or 'completely', as in 'dead certain'. I had to look up the etymology of graveyard shift. Apparently, it dates back to the days of the big sailing ships and the graveyard watch, so named because catastrophes tended to happen in the night.

Thanks also for your kind words, otg. As Anti-K noted, there are flaws in my sample arguments. Still, I think the point comes through that an inductive argument (oh, about DNA, maybe) by its nature cannot prove anything to a certainty, and saying it louder or more often doesn't change that.

:seeya:

 

[Anti-K]

I fail to see why the Whites/Fernies would have to be called first in order to serve as a diversion. their immediate and prolonged presence was what mattered, and that's how it transpired. they were notified and summoned following the 911 call - and after quickly arriving they indeed provided a diversion, meaning that it was slightly less obvious that PR/JR were not speaking to each other with so many people in the home. it was noticed and remarked upon with nine people excluding LE milling around, so how much more obvious would the lack of interaction have been with only the Rs and the two victim advocates present? the advocates stayed only a short while during the 6am - 1pm time period. IMO the Rs had no prior knowledge that victim advocates even existed but they were icing on the cake. the more the merrier!

from the LE POV, only one aspect of the order of the summons matters - was 911 called before the personal friends? yes. so that aspect of the ruse was properly handled

You call the friends first so that they can much things up before the police arrive. You call them first so that they can arrive before the police who might stop them from entering, etc.
.

“Detectives Harmer and Hickman interviewed [victim advocates] Jedamus and Morlock at police headquarters.

“The Ramseys probably didn’t know that their conversations with the advocates were not confidential or privileged by law. Jedamus and Morlock were obligated to tell the detectives everything they could remember, since they worked for - and were partly compensated by - the police department.”
<snip>
“Morlock remembered that John Ramsey had cried but tried to control his emotions even when he was so distraught that he could barely speak.
<snip>
Merlock “told the detectives that she had seen John and Patsy sitting together in the dining room holding each other and talking.” PMPT; p. 325
...

AK

 

[lawstudent]

I remember reading that Poe story as a young child (!) and it freaked me out. I've also read about safety coffins - creepy.

I do think it's entirely possible that JonBenet was mistaken for dead, but I don't find it all that likely. People back then were probably often declared dead by uneducated family members and it was common for people to die young. I don't think safety coffins were actually used very much. With cataplexy, the person is still breathing with a close to normal pulse, right? So if people were mistaking that for death, that's not good. The details we now know about how to confirm death were probably not widely known, and medical/criminal knowledge was much weaker. I'm sure a lot fewer people were brought back from the brink of death as they now are, which makes the importance of checking for the faintest sign of life a lot greater. There are still some of these cases in other countries, for the same reasons.

JonBenet definitely could have appeared dead, but a head blow like that doesn't seem particularly likely to have made her breathing very shallow. If you assume it was just one parent in a panic, I can see how they might have missed it. But wiping down/positioning/redressing the body, if you believe that is what happened, makes this seem kind of unlikely to me. Additionally, while if I found a child lying in a pool or having accidentally been strangled, I might immediately assume death, but most people don't go there with a head blow, even a bad one. They might assume knocked out, brain damaged, even brain dead, but at least check breathing.

 

[Arnie M]

History of the dead ringer
Throw the baby out with the bath water.
Raining cats and dogs.
Chew the fat
and much more ...
http://martinwoodside.blogspot.ca/2009/01/history-of-dead-ringer.html

 

[gramcracker]

You call the friends first so that they can much things up before the police arrive. You call them first so that they can arrive before the police who might stop them from entering, etc.

LEOs were awake, dressed and ready to respond; the friends were asleep. delaying the 911 call by allowing enough time for the friends to dress and arrange details in their own homes before leaving would be wildly impractical and suspicious. LE did not stop them from entering, which IMO was anticipated, so that point is moot

“Detectives Harmer and Hickman interviewed [victim advocates] Jedamus and Morlock at police headquarters.

“The Ramseys probably didn’t know that their conversations with the advocates were not confidential or privileged by law. Jedamus and Morlock were obligated to tell the detectives everything they could remember, since they worked for - and were partly compensated by - the police department.”

<snip>

“Morlock remembered that John Ramsey had cried but tried to control his emotions even when he was so distraught that he could barely speak.

<snip>

Merlock “told the detectives that she had seen John and Patsy sitting together in the dining room holding each other and talking.” PMPT; p. 325

Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder Perfect Town/kindle location 222

As the morning wore on, the victim advocates, Jedamus and Morlock, decided to go out and get bagels and fruit for everyone. With fewer people hovering around, Arndt noticed for the first time that Patsy and John rarely sat together.

kindle location 299

Later in the morning the Ramseys' friends were still in the rear of the house consoling Patsy, who clutched a crucifix in her hands. Arndt, who didn't know that John Ramsey had gone down into the basement before 10:00 AM, was still the only officer in the house. She was concerned for Ramsey when she saw him sitting alone in the dining room, head down and hands clasped together. He seemed despondent, totally withdrawn.

kindle location 9828

The police discussed the Ramseys' demeanor both before and after JonBenet's body was found. They had seemed distant from each other the entire morning, had never tried to comfort each other, and had remained physically separate. Patsy was looking around, peeking through the fingers covering her face, one police report said, while John was off by himself much of the time, out of Arndt's sight. He had even gone alone into the basement at midmorning, after which time he had become despondent, sitting alone.

Steve Thomas' Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 402

Detective Arndt instructed John Ramsey on how to handle the phone call expected from the kidnapper.: Demand to speak to the child. Get specific instructions for a meeting to deliver the ransom. Say he could not get the money until five o'clock that afternoon. Ramsey seem distracted, but his manner remained cordial, and she felt he understood her.

While Ramsey's language was clear and articulate, and he even smiled and joked, his overwrought wife was in the care of Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie. She looked vacant and dazed, repeatedly asking in a soft, empty voice, "Why didn't I hear my baby?" Despite her obvious distress, her husband did not go to her. It was as if the house had separated into two camps, His and Hers, with the friends dividing their time between the two. Patsy stayed in the sunroom, and John paced the dining room and den. It has been my experience that in situations where a child has been injured or killed, the parents cling to each other, so police considered the physical distance between John and Patsy Ramsey to be remarkable under the stressful conditions.

 

[gramcracker]

This is completely off-topic for the forum, but along the subject of your post. Wikipedia has a page on different designs of “safety coffins” which were not too uncommon (as you say) during the 18th and 19th centuries. Poe wrote several stories that dealt with the subject of premature burial, the most notable of which was named (appropriately) The Premature Burial. I saw a movie loosely based on the story with Ray Milland (scared the hell outta me when I was just a kid). The main character in the story has catalepsy and therefore a fear of being buried alive while in a catatonic state. Despite all his safeguards to prevent it, well... you can just figure out what happens to him, especially considering the author of the story.

I think we saw every horror movie made, at saturday afternoon marathons, and the one I've never forgotten had this same theme. a woman was unintentionally buried alive and either didn't have a safety bell or no one heard it. next scene opened with her bloodied/damaged fingers emerging from the coffin after she finally managed to pop the lid. my little bro (6) sat frozen in his seat but my little sister (8) shrieked with everything she had and dashed up the aisle. I chased after her but there was no convincing her to return to her seat so I stayed in the lobby with her and missed the rest of the movie. ah, those were the days, when it was legal to drop your kids off at the movies for 4-5 hours and find them nearly catatonic when you picked them up

 

[DeeDee249]

I think we saw every horror movie made, at saturday afternoon marathons, and the one I've never forgotten had this same theme. a woman was unintentionally buried alive and either didn't have a safety bell or no one heard it. next scene opened with her bloodied/damaged fingers emerging from the coffin after she finally managed to pop the lid. my little bro (6) sat frozen in his seat but my little sister (8) shrieked with everything she had and dashed up the aisle. I chased after her but there was no convincing her to return to her seat so I stayed in the lobby with her and missed the rest of the movie. ah, those were the days, when it was legal to drop your kids off at the movies for 4-5 hours and find them nearly catatonic when you picked them up

One of the most frightening movies I ever saw was when I was in grade school It was Vincent Price in Edgar Allen Poe's "Premature Burial". That movie kept me awake at night for a LONG time.

 

[noneareworthy]

Usually in the death of a child there is disbelief that the child is actually gone. Most stories report mothers holding out hope long after the child is dead.

 

[Anti-K]

and then there's "Dead Ringers," a film by (canadian director) David Cronenberg, starring Jeremy Irons. now, that's creepy.
...

AK

 

[Meara]

and then there's "Dead Ringers," a film by (canadian director) David Cronenberg, starring Jeremy Irons. now, that's creepy.
...

AK

No kidding!!

 

[2 percent]

Phantasm was my nightmare generator for a while.
I was 11. My sister was a very mature and responsible floorlaugh 21. We saw it at a drive-in that was next door to a cemetery.
If you know the movie, you know I was :scared:

My parents were happy my nightmares changed, though. My previous nightmares were about the ghost of a burned woman my sister, her best friend and I saw at the friend's house one night when I was 8~an experience complete with cold spots and whispering, dogs going nuts, etc.

But the very best part was having a family of 2 girls and 6 boys, all if us talk and walk in our sleep and two of us had screaming night terrors most of our childhood.

Hmmm I had no idea my early life was its own horror movie :cupcake:
(there's no reason for the cupcake...I'm just hungry)

 

[bettybaby00]

No kidding!!

IKR?

Why is it that many of the creepiest movies involve twins????

Now I wanna watch it :lol: