Patsy Ramsey

[2 percent]

IA. but the record frequently gets distorted to the point that restoring clarity is required

Oh I totally agree the record should be corrected but there's a point where that only takes a sentence or two.
Those that believe this testimony means something aren't talking to each other and that's a shame. That's all I'm saying

 

[Venom]

So does anyone care to discuss?

I think the painted/cleaned is an odd thing to mix up. If the basement was painted though it would have been noticeable.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Says who? that the bed smelled like pee???

And Maybe ML discounted his theory because it did not fit the evidence they already had.

When you have DNA that points to someone you can't say.. well we have DNA and Tdna that points to someone but we are going to charge the parents because well they live there.


I am trying to figure out the peed her pants every day proof.

And if that was true I am sure it would have been reported at school.. Was it?

BBM

Apparently no proof is needed. It's part of the "basic information in the case and something that has been known publicly and discussed on the forums for years" so we're supposed to accept it as fact.

I'm skeptical that JBR wet and soiled herself everyday.

MOO.

 

[Venom]

I think otg's post was spot on. It's ok to not believe whatever or be skeptical, say it and move on, scroll and roll as they say.

 

[2 percent]

So does anyone care to discuss?

I think the painted/cleaned is an odd thing to mix up. If the basement was painted though it would have been noticeable.

I do too. Was there anything in the house that had been painted recently?

 

[Anti-K]

There are items missing from the crime scene, so of course the toilet was taken apart and removed.

Is there poop smeared on the bathroom wall? That seems a fabrication, to me. Would poop smeared on the bathroom be evidence of some sort related to the crime? Not unless The Mad Crapper murdered Jonbenet. And, I don’t think that happened.

It’s strange what we get out of these things. To me, it seems that the intent behind showing Mrs Ramsey the photographs is to see whether or not Mrs Ramsey notices anything out of place. She notices the “tissue,” which she surmises may have been a “cleaning rag” left by LHP.

The bathroom pictures are “242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.”
The picture of the wall with smears is 205.
PATSY RAMSEY: ...There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
.

More on picture 205:
2 TOM HANEY: On 202.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the grate over that
4 window.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: This is just in sequence.
6 TOM HANEY: 203, just another shot. 204.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Could John have cut that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have, yeah.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 204 there is
10 some scrape mark toward the bottom of the doorjamb.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Where the dog could have
12 scratched.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: 205.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is all chipped out.
15 TOM HANEY: Is that unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks unusual to me. I
17 didn't do it.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you recall though, was this
19 prior damage?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Prior damage, oh --
21 TOM HANEY: Prior to December 26 of 1996.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't say for sure. I don't
23 know. I don't remember that.
24 TOM HANEY: That is that door -- correct me
25 if I am wrong -- leading into the kitchen area.
0406
1 PATSY RAMSEY: The back hall.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Right to the patio.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you know who caused that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember having
6 it.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now there was some
8 information out in the media about damage to the door
9 or something like that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This door?
11 TOM HANEY: Well, I assume that that is the
12 one we are talking about, are you familiar with that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh. (inaudible).
14 PATRICK BURKE: If you don't know.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: 205 we have. 206 is just another
17 shot of it with the scale in it which is the police.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

I do too. Was there anything in the house that had been painted recently?

the home tour was a year earlier, and the water damage on the top floor when pipes burst (but that wasn't anything approaching recent IIRC)

 

[Venom]

Aha. I just did some searching and found (supposedly from the same June 1998 interview) that the basement was painted in the fall of 1994 and carpet laid down there before the home tour.
Found here, [imghttp://www.acandyrose.com/s-jonbenet-timeline.htm[ /img]

 

[gramcracker]

good job! I had thought the home tour was one year previous. those renos being done two years earlier don't support the painted/cleaned response. if there was recent painting done I'm confident that someone will find a reference to it

 

[Venom]

I finished reading it and the carpet was replaced because of a water leak after the 1994 painting and carpeting.
And another tidbit from that link, NP admitting to JB's toileting issues.

 

[gramcracker]

LW worked in the home for 2 and 1/2 years, until sept '95. she references the flood as happening during Thanksgiving week while the painters were working in JR's bathroom. they left the window open and it banged against the faucet handle and turned on the water, and it ran on the floor for 3 days. I was wrong in my earlier post, the water pipes did not burst

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm

 

[DeDee]

I recall the Rs having new marble countertops installed before Thanksgiving 1996.

One worker claimed he entered the basement to fill a bucket with water from the hot water tank. He stated other workers at the home did the same.

Additionally, the worker claimed the marble top project was messy and lengthy, so the Rs stayed away from their home during this time.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-dean-cole.htm

 

[Meara]

There are items missing from the crime scene, so of course the toilet was taken apart and removed.

Is there poop smeared on the bathroom wall? That seems a fabrication, to me. Would poop smeared on the bathroom be evidence of some sort related to the crime? Not unless The Mad Crapper murdered Jonbenet. And, I don’t think that happened.

It’s strange what we get out of these things. To me, it seems that the intent behind showing Mrs Ramsey the photographs is to see whether or not Mrs Ramsey notices anything out of place. She notices the “tissue,” which she surmises may have been a “cleaning rag” left by LHP.

The bathroom pictures are “242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.”
The picture of the wall with smears is 205.
PATSY RAMSEY: ...There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.


More on picture 205:
2 TOM HANEY: On 202.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the grate over that
4 window.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: This is just in sequence.
6 TOM HANEY: 203, just another shot. 204.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Could John have cut that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have, yeah.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 204 there is
10 some scrape mark toward the bottom of the doorjamb.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Where the dog could have
12 scratched.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: 205.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is all chipped out.
15 TOM HANEY: Is that unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks unusual to me. I
17 didn't do it.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you recall though, was this
19 prior damage?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Prior damage, oh --
21 TOM HANEY: Prior to December 26 of 1996.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't say for sure. I don't
23 know. I don't remember that.
24 TOM HANEY: That is that door -- correct me
25 if I am wrong -- leading into the kitchen area.
0406
1 PATSY RAMSEY: The back hall.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Right to the patio.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you know who caused that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember having
6 it.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now there was some
8 information out in the media about damage to the door
9 or something like that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This door?
11 TOM HANEY: Well, I assume that that is the
12 one we are talking about, are you familiar with that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh. (inaudible).
14 PATRICK BURKE: If you don't know.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: 205 we have. 206 is just another
17 shot of it with the scale in it which is the police.
...

AK

Anti-K, I see what you're saying, and it's very interesting; yet it's hard to know what to make of that part of the interview in light of the portion Venom quoted in #931. There, even though photo 205 is referenced, Patsy is clearly talking about the basement bathroom:


TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available. [still referencing the basement bathroom; hereafter, BBR]
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom [still the BBR]because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door [to the BBR]opens right when you
24 came down those steps[the steps down to the basement]. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.[still referencing the BBR]
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.[still referencing the basement]
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom? [the BBR]
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it. [We know the bathroom at line 10 is still the BBR because of Patsy's answer]


How about some pictures? We haven't had any for a while.


Here's the BBR door. When open, it would block passage from the stairs, just as Patsy described, so it's easy to see why it was kept closed.

And here's the door from the back hall opening to the patio, with the window well grate in view.

In the portion of your quote that I've bolded, 205 refers to this door to the patio. They're discussing some chipping damage, and no one mentions smears or dirt. Obviously, the two doors/locations can't be the same, despite the numbering, and the smears go with the BBR door, while the chipping goes with the patio door. What do you make of it? Do you think there could be an error in the picture numbering, or that Haney and DeMuth misread the numbers - or that the transcript has a typo? The descriptions line up with the two locations. As far as I can tell, it's the duplication of the 205 that doesn't make sense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM

Apparently no proof is needed. It's part of the "basic information in the case and something that has been known publicly and discussed on the forums for years" so we're supposed to accept it as fact.

I'm skeptical that JBR wet and soiled herself everyday.

MOO.

Not that her peeing her pants at all, has anything to do with the murder but it drives me crazy when people state thing as fact without proof. That is not how you get to the bottom of a case, or the truth.

It seems to me to be a shell game. Lets cover the DNA and then use slight of hand to focus on potty issues for kids.. gah.

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K, I see what you're saying, and it's very interesting; yet it's hard to know what to make of that part of the interview in light of the portion Venom quoted in #931. There, even though photo 205 is referenced, Patsy is clearly talking about the basement bathroom:


TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available. [still referencing the basement bathroom; hereafter, BBR]
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom [still the BBR]because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door [to the BBR]opens right when you
24 came down those steps[the steps down to the basement]. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.[still referencing the BBR]
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.[still referencing the basement]
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom? [the BBR]
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it. [We know the bathroom at line 10 is still the BBR because of Patsy's answer]


How about some pictures? We haven't had any for a while.


Here's the BBR door. When open, it would block passage from the stairs, just as Patsy described, so it's easy to see why it was kept closed.

And here's the door from the back hall opening to the patio, with the window well grate in view.

In the portion of your quote that I've bolded, 205 refers to this door to the patio. They're discussing some chipping damage, and no one mentions smears or dirt. Obviously, the two doors/locations can't be the same, despite the numbering, and the smears go with the BBR door, while the chipping goes with the patio door. What do you make of it? Do you think there could be an error in the picture numbering, or that Haney and DeMuth misread the numbers - or that the transcript has a typo? The descriptions line up with the two locations. As far as I can tell, it's the duplication of the 205 that doesn't make sense.

I think it’s possible that the pictures were being laid out on a table, or something, as they were being shown, and that Mrs Ramsey’s eyes wandered back to 205 while “242, 43 and 44 and 45 together” were being discussed. IOWS, although the conversation had move on to the bathroom, she was still looking (or thinking) back to the earlier photos – noticed the smears, mentioned them – and, than the conversation is brought back to the BBR.
After “25 of smears on here” you’ve inserted [still referencing the BBR], but this is wrong - DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

So, the smears refer to 205. Or, so it seems...
...

AK

 

[chlban]

:loveyou:

Is WS having a contest to see who can post the most replies this year?

QUOTE]

If so, I believe we have a winner:loveyou:

 

[chlban]

So does anyone care to discuss?

I think the painted/cleaned is an odd thing to mix up. If the basement was painted though it would have been noticeable.

Soo maybe she realized that, but only after considering painting it?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Soo maybe she realized that, but only after considering painting it?

To me it just seems like a mix up. It does not seem nefarious or sly. It seems to me she said the wrong word.
It is not like she can hide if it was painted or not.

 

[2 percent]

22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.

Ummmm...I know I just had chocolate milk and a coke on an empty stomach, but this section of discussion makes no sense to me.

There are a bunch of smears here - to me, that means that she is seeing smears on the photo she's looking at. Does anyone know what photo that is?

But if she's looking at crime scene photos of a smear in or near the basement bathroom, why would she she think about, much less refer to, having the basement painted 2 years before? That entire answer is just weird.

 

[DeDee]

In January 1998, Barbara Fernie contacted investigators after she and her son saw a tabloid and recognized BRs golf clubs in the picture. Since BF recalled JR asking for his golf club bag, she thought she would inform the investigators.

During that same visit, investigators learned about the scratches around the exterior screen door lock Barbara Fernie had seen earlier that year and had, in fact, mentioned the marks to Patsy who dismissed them as JR attempting to enter the home.

Only, the Ramsey's ran a half page ad, soon after the murder, in the Denver area papers with a picture of the screen door with its scratches and indentations stating it could have been a possible entry point for the kidnapper.

The ad's claim did not sit well with Barbara Fernie who knew Patsy was aware of the screen door's chipping damage months prior. She viewed it as an attempt to mislead the public. BF indicated this was the point in which she broke ties with Patsy Ramsey.


13 TRIP DEMUTH: 205.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is all chipped out.
15 TOM HANEY: Is that unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks unusual to me. I
17 didn't do it.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you recall though, was this
19 prior damage?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Prior damage, oh --
21 TOM HANEY: Prior to December 26 of 1996.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't say for sure. I don't
23 know. I don't remember that.
24 TOM HANEY: That is that door -- correct me
25 if I am wrong -- leading into the kitchen area.
0406
1 PATSY RAMSEY: The back hall.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Right to the patio.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you know who caused that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember having
6 it.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now there was some
8 information out in the media about damage to the door
9 or something like that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This door?
11 TOM HANEY: Well, I assume that that is the
12 one we are talking about, are you familiar with that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh. (inaudible).
14 PATRICK BURKE: If you don't know.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.