Patsy Ramsey

[Chewy]

gramcracker


I'm not sure what this behavior indicates [modsnip]

Thanks for sharing your observations.

 

[Anti-K]

I agree it doesn't really make sense for Patsy to lie, but I find it much more believable than an intruder feeding her pineapple.

That leaves her getting it herself and then returning to bed, only to have the intruder come in and get her again. It's certainly possible. I don't mean physically a stretch. I mean that a six year old child getting up in the middle of the night, if we assume this wasn't her habit, opening the fridge, getting on a chair to open the cabinet and grab a bowl, putting a lot of pineapple into the bowl, and eating a few bites, seems a little odd. Not impossible by any means - but strange she'd do that on the one night someone happened to come in - it's just a weird coincidence. If the parents said she did it regularly, I would not think it was weird at all.

And while we don't have evidence that Patsy freaked out on them, everyone talks about how she liked things certain ways. We don't know what she was like in private, and what her particular focus was on. I don't see them described as wild children. To make a 6 year old terrified to get up and eat in the middle of the night doesn't require physical discipline or an immaculate house. It's just about very clear expectations that you will hear about incessantly if you make a wrong move.

But, why make it either Patsy lied or the intruder fed her pineapple? That’s just silly. And, why continually speculate that Jonbenet got the pineapple out of the fridge herself? It’s like people enjoy making up unlikely things simply so they can say that they’re unlikely.
...

AK

 

[Chewy]

I agree, and you know if you really think about it, kids pick things out of the fridge all the time. If she had a place of pieces of pineapple in the fridge and she walked in with her mom she might have grabbed a piece and ate it without being seen. There's your answer right there. It has nothing to do with the actual crime.

 

[Tawny]

I agree, and you know if you really think about it, kids pick things out of the fridge all the time. If she had a place of pieces of pineapple in the fridge and she walked in with her mom she might have grabbed a piece and ate it without being seen. There's your answer right there. It has nothing to do with the actual crime.

I fully believe that is a possibility.

So the question remains: Why did the parents lie about her having been asleep when they arrived home?

THAT is the issue. IMO

 

[Chewy]

What makes it seem like they lied? I don't see it. I see they brought her home and put her straight to bed. If that's what happened, how does the pineapple make it a lie? We've asked several times for this answer and have yet to get it.

 

[Anti-K]

What makes it seem like they lied? I don't see it. I see they brought her home and put her straight to bed. If that's what happened, how does the pineapple make it a lie? We've asked several times for this answer and have yet to get it.

I’ve tried to get the answer to this one for years – there aint none coming.
...

AK

 

[DeeDee249]

I have never seen anywhere that JB was suffering from appendicitis. An inflamed appendix would certainly have been noted in the autopsy. I don't see how that could be suggested as having slowed her digestion. Seems like grasping at straws. She ate the pineapple within 2 hours of her death. It's that simple. Whether her parents gave it to her, or she ate it without them being aware of it, doesn't change the autopsy findings.
The ONLY reason the parents deny knowledge of her eating the pineapple is because they had to maintain their claim that she was carried into the house asleep and they never saw her alive again. Remember BR told police JB walked into the house on her own.
Patsy had a lot of last-minute things to do that night when they got home. JB died between midnight and 1 am- the family arrived home about 10 pm. There is no way JB was up and about eating the pineapple without Patsy knowing it. The parents also admitted they lied about BR being asleep the whole time that morning too. Later they said that they thought it was better to just say he was asleep so he wouldn't be "bothered".
Right - it would be SUCH a bother to be questioned about whether you might have seen or heard anything that might help police solve your sister's murder.

 

[lawstudent]

But, why make it either Patsy lied or the intruder fed her pineapple? That’s just silly. And, why continually speculate that Jonbenet got the pineapple out of the fridge herself? It’s like people enjoy making up unlikely things simply so they can say that they’re unlikely.
...

AK

You also comment on my next sentence, in which I take into account the third possibility: that JonBenet got it herself. So I didn't say it was either/or. But since you believe that is unlikely, what is your theory? I mean, what is the likely possibility here? There are not many alternatives.

I agree, and you know if you really think about it, kids pick things out of the fridge all the time. If she had a place of pieces of pineapple in the fridge and she walked in with her mom she might have grabbed a piece and ate it without being seen. There's your answer right there. It has nothing to do with the actual crime.

No one thinks it had anything to do with the actual crime. That doesn't mean it is not relevant. We don't know if it is, but any inconsistency or abnormality is going to be looked at and could go to mindset/credibility/location of JB/timeline etc.

The problem with your theory is that she was supposedly carried up straight to bed! Patsy never said she was doing stuff in the kitchen for a few minutes before JB went to bed. That's the only reason this raises red flags - they left no possibility for her to do it before they put her to bed with their timeline. I got the impression evidence of more than a piece was found, and presumably it was wrapped or something - I don't know how she had at least a few bites without her mom happening to notice while in the fridge. I know at age 6 I never took anything out of the fridge without asking. But even if we assume that happened, the timeline is the problem - the only reason it is suspicious.

 

[Frigga]

^ If you can't figure it out on your own, then there is no use for others explaining. You both seem like highly intelligent people to me and I personally have seen it explained.

Sometimes people don't actually want an answer- they just want to fight... erm...debate.

ETA DeeDee249 and Lawstudent, this comment wasn't meant for you!

 

[Anti-K]

You also comment on my next sentence, in which I take into account the third possibility: that JonBenet got it herself. So I didn't say it was either/or. But since you believe that is unlikely, what is your theory? I mean, what is the likely possibility here? There are not many alternatives.



No one thinks it had anything to do with the actual crime. That doesn't mean it is not relevant. We don't know if it is, but any inconsistency or abnormality is going to be looked at and could go to mindset/credibility/location of JB/timeline etc.

The problem with your theory is that she was supposedly carried up straight to bed! Patsy never said she was doing stuff in the kitchen for a few minutes before JB went to bed. That's the only reason this raises red flags - they left no possibility for her to do it before they put her to bed with their timeline. I got the impression evidence of more than a piece was found, and presumably it was wrapped or something - I don't know how she had at least a few bites without her mom happening to notice while in the fridge. I know at age 6 I never took anything out of the fridge without asking. But even if we assume that happened, the timeline is the problem - the only reason it is suspicious.

?
When you say that you find A more believable than B, it’s perfectly reasonable for me to ask, why just A or B?

And, I did comment on your third possibility when I asked, “...why continually speculate that Jonbenet got the pineapple out of the fridge herself?”

I posted a few a few, possible, “innocent” explanations for the pineapple a few posts ago, here on this thread. I can repost them if you want, but I have no idea what most likely happened in this case.

It is possible, even if only conditionally, it is possible that she ate the pineapple before leaving for the Whites. We might say that such a thing is very unlikely but we can really only say that such a thing is very unlikely in most cases but “most cases” is not necessarily representative of “this case.”

There is something “mysterious” about the pineapple so I can see how people’s imaginations get fired by it, but really all that we know is that she ate pineapple, and a very small amount of it. And, she did it without anyone knowing about it.
...

AK

 

[Frigga]

?
When you say that you find A more believable than B, it’s perfectly reasonable for me to ask, why just A or B?

And, I did comment on your third possibility when I asked, “...why continually speculate that Jonbenet got the pineapple out of the fridge herself?”

I posted a few a few, possible, “innocent” explanations for the pineapple a few posts ago, here on this thread. I can repost them if you want, but I have no idea what most likely happened in this case.

It is possible, even if only conditionally, it is possible that she ate the pineapple before leaving for the Whites. We might say that such a thing is very unlikely but we can really only say that such a thing is very unlikely in most cases but “most cases” is not necessarily representative of “this case.”

There is something “mysterious” about the pineapple so I can see how people’s imaginations get fired by it, but really all that we know is that she ate pineapple, and a very small amount of it. And, she did it without anyone knowing about it.
...

AK

BBM And you know this to be the truth how exactly?

 

[Anti-K]

BBM And you know this to be the truth how exactly?

There is no evidence to show that anyone knew about it and the parents both claim to not know anything about it, it’s never been said that Burke knew anything about it and I don’t think an intruder had anything to do with it.
...

AK

 

[Frigga]

I was unaware that there is an interview asking Burke specifically about the pineapple.

"No evidence to show that anyone knew about it" quote from your post- who is/are the anyone?

In your theory John and Patsy told the truth about everything? Is that correct?

 

[Chewy]

You also comment on my next sentence, in which I take into account the third possibility: that JonBenet got it herself. So I didn't say it was either/or. But since you believe that is unlikely, what is your theory? I mean, what is the likely possibility here? There are not many alternatives.



No one thinks it had anything to do with the actual crime. That doesn't mean it is not relevant. We don't know if it is, but any inconsistency or abnormality is going to be looked at and could go to mindset/credibility/location of JB/timeline etc.

The problem with your theory is that she was supposedly carried up straight to bed! Patsy never said she was doing stuff in the kitchen for a few minutes before JB went to bed. That's the only reason this raises red flags - they left no possibility for her to do it before they put her to bed with their timeline. I got the impression evidence of more than a piece was found, and presumably it was wrapped or something - I don't know how she had at least a few bites without her mom happening to notice while in the fridge. I know at age 6 I never took anything out of the fridge without asking. But even if we assume that happened, the timeline is the problem - the only reason it is suspicious.

You keep insisting what "six year olds do" and I keep pointing out that just because your experience is different doesn't mean it's impossible to happen in a way that is different from your experience.

IMO this is something that should not have to be repeated over and over again because it's just common sense.

Next, she could have eaten the pineapple BEFORE going to the party at the other house or after waking up from being home. It's possible.

The only reason for discussing this would be to throw a flaw in the "story" of the Ramsey's timeline but that would ONLY work if it was IMPOSSIBLE for JBR to have done it herself. As I asked before, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to open the fridge it would be different.

So if someone can prove that the refrigerator would have been impossible for a small child to open, that's one thing. If there was no pineapple in the house then that would be impossible.

I really don't understand the logic behind the "well I would never go into a fridge as a 6 year old" being offered up as an argument. You're a law student right? Would that ever be allowed in a trial? "I don't believe it because when I was six I didn't do the same thing?"

:seeya:

 

[Linda7NJ]

You keep insisting what "six year olds do" and I keep pointing out that just because your experience is different doesn't mean it's impossible to happen in a way that is different from your experience.



IMO this is something that should not have to be repeated over and over again because it's just common sense.



Next, she could have eaten the pineapple BEFORE going to the party at the other house or after waking up from being home. It's possible.



The only reason for discussing this would be to throw a flaw in the "story" of the Ramsey's timeline but that would ONLY work if it was IMPOSSIBLE for JBR to have done it herself. As I asked before, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to open the fridge it would be different.



So if someone can prove that the refrigerator would have been impossible for a small child to open, that's one thing. If there was no pineapple in the house then that would be impossible.



I really don't understand the logic behind the "well I would never go into a fridge as a 6 year old" being offered up as an argument. You're a law student right? Would that ever be allowed in a trial? "I don't believe it because when I was six I didn't do the same thing?"



:seeya:

Lawstudent, is no longer a student
But a bonafide J.D.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

There is no evidence to show that anyone knew about it and the parents both claim to not know anything about it, it’s never been said that Burke knew anything about it and I don’t think an intruder had anything to do with it.

...



AK

But the parents have been proven to be proven liars.

Funny thing about liars, I don't believe a single word they say, after being caught in a major lie.

IMO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Venom]

Still on the pineapple I see.
Just because someone's own kid has snuck into the fridge for a snack doesn't make it likely any of the R kids would have done it. That argument can go both ways.
Congrats lawstudent!

 

[Anti-K]

I was unaware that there is an interview asking Burke specifically about the pineapple.

"No evidence to show that anyone knew about it" quote from your post- who is/are the anyone?

In your theory John and Patsy told the truth about everything? Is that correct?

Anyone means anyone that was asked about it.

Of course, I don’t know if Burke was ever asked about it, which is why I said that it’s never been said that he knew anything about it.

I don’t know what you mean by “in my theory,” but, no, I don’t think the Ramseys were always honest or forthcoming. But, I don’t see any evidence or reason that supports the position that they are lying about the pineapple. In fact, if RDI, lying about the pineapple would be an unnecessary and bizarre thing for them to do. And, if they felt they needed to lie, there are easier lies.
...

AK

 

[BOESP]

Lou Smit, a Ramsey supporter and an LE professional believed the pineapple was a bugaboo in the investigation, implying it was incriminating evidence.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Questioning Regarding the Pineapple)

0520
15 You have to ask Patsy. It was not easy, it was
16 like a freezer door, big walk-in freezer door,
17 it wasn't that easy to pop open.
18 But they certainly weren't above
19 going in the pantry, grabbing a box of cereal
20 and, you know, having cereal and stuff. So I
21 guess to say if it was, would not have been out
22 of the question that she grabbed some out of the
23 refrigerator in the day sometime, but I don't
24 know that she could get the door open.
25 But I mean, it's hard for to me to

0521
1 think that this intruder could have taken her
2 downstairs and fed her pineapple. I just can't
3 buy that.
4 LOU SMIT: See, that is the
5 thing, that's the one thing --
6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
7 On the counter you mean.
8 LOU SMIT: We don't know.
9 The pineapple is inside her, so we have to
0 figure out how that pineapple got there.
11 There is one way it could get there, she
12 had to eat it at some point.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was
14 pineapple?
15 LOU SMIT: Yes.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: No question?
17 LOU SMIT: No question. No
18 question. So that's always been the big
19 bugaboo.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is
21 there a time line based on where it was in the
22 digestive system?
23 LOU SMIT: That's always open
24 to people's opinions. But there is
25 various theories it could be anywhere from

0522
1 two hours to more than that. But again,
2 it is in her intestine.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my
4 amateur reasoning would be that she came
5 home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep
6 before we got home, which was, you know,
7 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that
8 night.
9 LOU SMIT: What night?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have
11 my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th,
12 rather than early in the morning or the next
13 morning.
14 LOU SMIT: Think about the
15 date.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th,
17 Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight,
18 that means there is three hours that I would say
19 there is no way she could have eaten any, as --
20 it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that
21 picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like
22 something that would have been in the
23 refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a
24 bite when she left the house, I don't know. But
25 I know as a father and as sound asleep as she

0523
1 was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her
2 when we got home.
3 She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy
4 didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed
5 her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I
6 mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down
7 there and tried to feed her something, she would
8 have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her
9 mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed
10 bloody murder.
11 LOU SMIT: But still it's a
12 fact that it's in there. There is nothing
13 that we can do to change that particular
14 fact.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.
16 LOU SMIT: So is there any
17 possibility at all that Patsy could have
18 done that, have gotten up and gone down
19 there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
21 LOU SMIT: Would you have known it
22 if she had?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have
24 known it but she certainly would have said it.
25 I mean, there was no reason she would have (more at http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-pineapple.htm )

 

[bettybaby00]

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Questioning Regarding the Pineapple)

[COLOR=#FFFFF]0520
15 You have to ask Patsy. It was not easy, it was
16 like a freezer door, big walk-in freezer door,
17 it wasn't that easy to pop open.
18 But they certainly weren't above
19 going in the pantry, grabbing a box of cereal
20 and, you know, having cereal and stuff. So I
21 guess to say if it was, would not have been out
22 of the question that she grabbed some out of the
23 refrigerator in the day sometime, but I don't
24 know that she could get the door open.
25 But I mean, it's hard for to me to

0521
1 think that this intruder could have taken her
2 downstairs and fed her pineapple. I just can't
3 buy that.
4 LOU SMIT: See, that is the
5 thing, that's the one thing --
6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
7 On the counter you mean.[/COLOR]
8 LOU SMIT: We don't know.
9 The pineapple is inside her, so we have to
0 figure out how that pineapple got there.
11 There is one way it could get there, she
12 had to eat it at some point.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was
14 pineapple?
15 LOU SMIT: Yes.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: No question?
17 LOU SMIT: No question. No
18 question. So that's always been the big
19 bugaboo.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is
21 there a time line based on where it was in the
22 digestive system?
23 LOU SMIT: That's always open
24 to people's opinions. But there is
25 various theories it could be anywhere from

0522
1 two hours to more than that. But again,
2 it is in her intestine.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my
4 amateur reasoning would be that she came
5 home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep
6 before we got home, which was, you know,
7 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that
8 night.
9 LOU SMIT: What night?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have
11 my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th,
12 rather than early in the morning or the next
13 morning.
14 LOU SMIT: Think about the
15 date.
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th,
17 Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight,
18 that means there is three hours that I would say
19 there is no way she could have eaten any, as --
20 it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that
21 picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like
22 something that would have been in the
23 refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a
24 bite when she left the house, I don't know. But
25 I know as a father and as sound asleep as she

0523
1 was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her
2 when we got home.
3 She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy
4 didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed
5 her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I
6 mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down
7 there and tried to feed her something, she would
8 have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her
9 mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed
10 bloody murder.
11 LOU SMIT: But still it's a
12 fact that it's in there. There is nothing
13 that we can do to change that particular
14 fact.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.
16 LOU SMIT: So is there any
17 possibility at all that Patsy could have
18 done that, have gotten up and gone down
19 there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
21 LOU SMIT: Would you have known it
22 if she had?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have
24 known it but she certainly would have said it.
25 I mean, there was no reason she would have (more at http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-pineapple.htm )

By continuing to deny that they fed it to her serves to "prove" (in his mind) that after she was put to bed sound asleep, she wouldn't have gotten up. He also seems pretty adamant she couldn't open the fridge herself.