Patsy Ramsey

[ScarlettScarpetta]

No it doesn't.

Yes. yes it does.
"Early in the investigation, police found male DNA in a drop of blood on JonBenet's underwear and determined it was not from anyone in her family. Investigators were unable to say who it came from and whether that person was the killer."

"The laboratory found previously undiscovered genetic material on the sides of the girl's long underwear, where an attacker would have grasped the clothing to pull it down, authorities said. The DNA matched the genetic material found earlier.

District Attorney Mary Lacy said the presence of the same male DNA in three places on the girl's clothing convinced investigators it belonged to JonBenet's killer and had not been left accidentally by an innocent party."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/0...jonbenet-ramsey-killer-family-holds-out-hope/

 

[bettybaby00]

Not really, I have a talent in what I do for a living, but it's not something that would be fun for kids. It's test prep. LOL But I've sometimes been envious of those facebook friends who have given their kids a life long gift in learning a talent and being part of group of people.

I had each of my kids do something that they liked. One is an artist and plays soccer, the other is a lifeguard who loved swimming. My youngest seems to have taken on my habit of sitting online but he's studying piano. I put him in piano because he had a natural affinity for it.

But my point is, Patsy was a pageant girl who won, so to her this wasn't just a hobby, it was a part of her life that she wanted to share with her daughter. I don't get people berating her for doing such a thing.

To me it's a normal and sometimes admirable quality as a parent.

I agree that as parents we typically get our kids interested in the things we enjoyed as a kid. However, for a 6 year old, the pageant circuit is much more involved from a commitment standpoint when compared to most other 6 year old's experiences with the activities they become involved with, whether by their own choice or by parental influence. Both of my kids at age 6 were involved in "organized" activities. My daughter took dance, and my son played soccer, yet neither activity required anything more than 1 afternoon a week from each child. Soccer was even less arduous so to speak as it only lasted for "the season," versus the longer time frame of the dance season. I know for my son and his friends a big part of the appeal of going to soccer was what the snack would be at the end of the game! :lol:

This is not the case with pageants. JonBenet had to have a much greater commitment. They had to travel to the various pageant locations, and although I have no first hand experience, I highly doubt a pageant lasts for an hour, (like soccer or a dance class), or even an afternoon. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's an all day affair. Additionally, she had voice, dance and music lessons to bolster her talents for the pageants. She had costume fittings, modeling lessons, and photoshoots. She was subjected to heavy makeup applications and endured having her hair dyed. This is not what many of our kids have going on when we introduce them to something we enjoyed as children.

I was flipping through an old thread, and this caught my eye..

Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye
How big were pageants in JonBenet's life? The Ramseys and their supporters always say that JonBenet "only" did 9 pageants in her life. However, I have done some investigating to show that pageants were actually very important, and were becoming very serious in the last eight months of her life. I believe that 1995 and 1996 were very different years for JonBenet.

JonBenet's 1995 schedule:

Summer: Charlevoix pageant and photoshoot
October: Photoshoot
November or December 1995: pageant
Her hair is dyed sometime in November or December 1995 for her 2nd pageant.


This is JonBenet's schedule for 1996:

April: Easter photoshoot and pageant
June: Randall Simmons photoshoot and pageant (and photoshoot for that pageant)
July: Two pageants
August: Pageant
September: Judith Phillips photoshoot
November: photoshoot and pageant
December: Pageant, mall performance, and parade


So in 1995, JonBenet had two pageants and two photoshoots.

From April 1996-December 1996, JonBenet had five photoshoots, plus she competed in seven pageants.

So, JonBenet may have competed in "just" nine pageants but when you consider that two were in 1995 and seven were in 1996, you realize that pageants were becoming a very big deal in her life. Seven pageants in the last eight months of JBR's life, so that's about one pageant per month, and you know that she was practicing every weekend for it.

She also performed for every grade in her school right before Winter Break started. She had another pageant on January 5, 1997 in Hawaii.

Lastly, I hope JonBenet enjoyed competing in pageants, but we really don't know, except of course, based on The Rs telling us she enjoyed them.

I can't help recalling the "JonBenet you will," quote as well as the trophy comments...

fact, my daughter later told me that during one of her visits that during this time, that she went up to JonBenét room and JonBenét showed her all the trophies from all the pageants, her ribbons and stuff like that and my daughter said 'what are these?' and she said 'oh my mom just wants me to get into these pageants and these are trophies that I earned' and my daughter said 'wow, cool'. She said (JonBenét) 'but the trophies really don't belong here, they belong in my mom's room' . Yeah.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-judith-phillips.htm

Once, while Judith Phillips was visiting the Ramseys, Nedra Paugh pulled one of JonBenet's costumes from a closet, a pink and frilly overstated outfit. Judith asked what the family would do if Colorado's Royal Miss began to complain, or refused to practice and submit to future beauty pageants. "We will say, JonBenet you WILL!" said JonBenet's grandmother.

http://www.tommillerlaw.com/Chapter...ution-of-Justice-by-Thomas-C-Doc-Miller.shtml

Now my kids are teenagers and they're involved in the things they want to be in. Not soccer, or dance LOL. And there is a definite high level of commitment associated with these activities. But at 6? No, they had fun activities they enjoyed, and there wasn't a great deal of commitment that went with it.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

District Attorney Mary Lacy said

My point exactly.

Now try to produce the data report.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

My point exactly.

Now try to produce the data report.

It is not that she said it, It is that the science says it.

Feel free to look it up. It is true and relevant.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

"The touch DNA method—named for the fact that it analyzes skin cells left behind when assailants touch victims, weapons or something else at a crime scene—has been around for the last five years. In fact, the prosecutor in the Ramsey case, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy, learned about touch DNA when she attended a course here at the West Virginia University Forensic Science Initiative in the summer of 2007."


"The technique has dramatically increased the number of items of evidence that can be used for DNA detection. In the 1980s, in order to perform DNA analysis on a crime scene or victim, forensic investigators needed a blood or semen stain about the size of a quarter. The sample size fell in the 1990s to the size of a dime and then became: “If you can see it, you can analyze it.”

Touch DNA doesn’t require you to see anything, or any blood or semen at all. It only requires seven or eight cells from the outermost layer of our skin."
"But in cases like the JonBenet Ramsey murder, which has tripped up authorities for over a decade, it can provide information that leads to a killer—or at least exonerates the innocent."



http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-touch-dna-jonbenet-ramsey/

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

[modsnip]

Quoting Mary Lacy and Foxnews about the DNA is like quoting the Obama administration about Benghazi or the Bush administration about weapons of mass destruction.

Defining touch DNA does not verify Lacy's judgement.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Lacy/Hunter had certain parts of the longjohns tested theorizing an intruder would touch them there. Iow, they went after intruder evidence and low and behold they came up with it. What a surprise. Too bad for them they had to bend the science to get the conclusion they were looking for.

It's called politics, not science.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Lacy/Hunter had certain parts of the longjohns tested theorizing an intruder would touch them there. Iow, they went after intruder evidence and low and behold they came up with it. What a surprise. Too bad for them they had to bend the science to get the conclusion they were looking for.

It's called politics, not science.

No, That is where they look for Touch DNA when someone has been assaulted. Maybe do a little research and you will find that more than one crime has been solved or someone has been exonerated by touch DNA. When someone is assaulted their clothing is pulled down and that is where you would expect to get TDNA and they do. That has nothing to do with LACY or Any other DA. That has to to with forensic scientists and where they search.

Really, maybe do a little more research about TDNA. You will be amazed how they use it these days.

 

[Chewy]

Read the definition of whitewash. She peed and pooped her pants. And I'd say the thing in the small room was a pretty good indication of abuse and mistreatment.

So then my son was abused and mistreated? :scared: This is just nonsensical illogical generalizaton. You're forcing the puzzle pieces to match your biased interpretation of the events.

No, That is where they look for Touch DNA when someone has been assaulted. Maybe do a little research and you will find that more than one crime has been solved or someone has been exonerated by touch DNA. When someone is assaulted their clothing is pulled down and that is where you would expect to get TDNA and they do. That has nothing to do with LACY or Any other DA. That has to to with forensic scientists and where they search.

Really, maybe do a little more research about TDNA. You will be amazed how they use it these days.

It's funny to me how many people don't understand the DNA evidence in this case and just totally disregard it. A new DA explained why Karr was eliminated based on DNA. Basically what he said that he did to her didn't match what the DNA showed. There is strong DNA evidence in this case that exonerates the parents. This is why they wrote an apology to the parents.

But you know, the kid peed her pants and her mom liked pageants so OBVIOUSLY she's a vicious child molester who garotted her daughter for peeing the bed. Makes TOTAL sense. SMH

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Really, maybe do a little more research about TDNA. You will be amazed how they use it these days.

Do a little reaseach on how they used it in the Ramsey case and post the data report that supports your assertion that there was matching samples from several spots on the clothing.

 

[Salem]

Stop attacking one another. Agree to disagree and move on.

Salem

 

[Meara]

I would have a problem with that too. But that is not what we have here. Not even close. There is no evidence of abuse or mistreatment. There is only people that say that JBR loved performing and enjoyed the attention. There is nothing that describes this child as anything but normal and having a fun childhood.

This statement really took me by surprise. JBR's feelings about pageant life are, obviously, arguable, but it is a huge leap from there to say that her childhood was thoroughly normal and fun. Here is some of what we know:

1. When JBR was four, her older step-sister was killed in a car accident. Her father continued to
grieve for over two years.

2. Her mother was critically ill with cancer and enervated by treatment for (correct me, anybody,
on the number) about 2 1/2 years. During that time she was away from home regularly,and her
immune system was so weak that she was quarantined for a period in JAR's bedroom and not
available to anyone, let alone JBR.

3. School staff reported that while JBR was generally well dressed and groomed, there were other
times when she would arrive at school tired, disorganized and disheveled.

4. After potty training, JBR regressed to wetting her pants during the day as well as at night and
had soiling incidents.

5. She is reported to have had chronic respiratory infections and urinary tract infections/irritation.

6. Her father was often away from home, and she was reported to have missed him so much that
she cried.

7. Friends of the family were so concerned by the intensity of JBR's pageant life that they planned
an intervention with Patsy to confront her over the "mega-JonBenet thing".

8. She was in therapy.

9. Patsy took her into the bathroom on a number of occasions and closed the door, after which JBR
could be heard screaming.

10. JBR was found crying alone on the stairs at the family party on Dec. 23, and had an argument
with her mother on Christmas Day.

These are not things that contribute to or reflect a normal, fun childhood.

Quite apart from any consideration of outright physical abuse, there is a simple explanation possible for JBR's toileting issues: she wanted to remain a child. This would be consistent with, and perhaps a sequel to, her continuing to drink from a baby bottle into her third year, as well as with being sick a great deal. The increase in wetting and soiling coincides with the ramped up pageant activities in '96 (Thank you, eileenhawkeye! Great work!). Pageant life and its growing list of corollaries meant that, by the second half of '96, outside of school, JBR spent more time with adults than with other children. And even at school she was being separated from her peers. Once she performed for every class, she was on a different level. Patsy was not easy to say no to; and when we can't say no out loud, our bodies will say it for us.

I don't mean that a possible desire to remain a child would be the only explanation, just that it may have been a sustained note underneath everything else. JBR may well have wished she could go back to the time when she didn't have to take care of her own toileting "like a big girl" - the time before Mommy got sick and the time before Beth died and Daddy got sad and went away a lot. This could shed light on JBR's fascination with Shirley Temple movies. They're about an adorable little blond girl, often without a mom, who sings and dances, doesn't grow up, makes father figures happy, and makes everything turn out okay.

And there's this: The fact that JBR enjoyed performing doesn't prove that everything was fine. In fact, we know otherwise. When questioned about the extent of pageant activities, Patsy flat out lied. She said it didn't amount to more than a couple of Sunday afternoons! Why the lie? Her extreme minimizing showed she wished to hide an unhealthy excess - of time, money, her own psychological investment, and likely some combination thereof. A healthy, honest man would have exclaimed, "A couple of Sunday afternoons?!" or at least said, "Now wait, Patsy, it's a lot more than that..." But John went right along with it. Both parents saddling their six year old daughter with a heavy agenda and trying to pretend otherwise to themselves and others -- that's treating her as an object, and it wasn't normal.

 

[Chewy]

The first part of your post Meara is quite interesting and valid. But the extrapolation of the second part borders on the absurd. People's pet theories online are not anything more than Monday Morning Quarterbacking and Armchair Psychiatry.

I love how you list all these things like "her mother's cancer" "the death of her older sister" "her father frequently being abway on business" and then posit the theory that the peeing of the pants is related to the PAGEANTS instead of the more realistic common sense answer that it was more obviously related to the above issues you mentioned.


Maybe she liked Shirley Temple because .....oh .... I don't know... hundreds of millions of fans also liked Shirley Temple because she was cute and could sing and dance? Maybe?

Instead you focus on the fact that Shirley Temple "doesn't grow up" I mean c'mon.

What's next? Jonbenet likes Disney movies because fairy tales reflect the inner turmoil of a child who is raised by an evil stepmother?


It's far more likely that she liked Shirley Temple because she also liked pageants and liked watching an experienced child entertainer because she liked doing the same thing.

You really want to suggest that a six year old watches Shirley Temple movies and subconsciouslly connects to "never grows up and makes father figures happy" rather than "Wow she dances and sings and is cute, I want to do the same thing."

So let me guess, my son who is a soccer player and is a fan of Ronaldo is not a fan, like millions of other fans, because he's a good soccer player, but instead "because he faced crippling injuries and had to give up the sport which validates my son's desire to give up soccer."

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

No shortage of whitewash. IMO.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This statement really took me by surprise. JBR's feelings about pageant life are, obviously, arguable, but it is a huge leap from there to say that her childhood was thoroughly normal and fun. Here is some of what we know:



1. When JBR was four, her older step-sister was killed in a car accident. Her father continued to

grieve for over two years.



2. Her mother was critically ill with cancer and enervated by treatment for (correct me, anybody,

on the number) about 2 1/2 years. During that time she was away from home regularly,and her

immune system was so weak that she was quarantined for a period in JAR's bedroom and not

available to anyone, let alone JBR.



3. School staff reported that while JBR was generally well dressed and groomed, there were other

times when she would arrive at school tired, disorganized and disheveled.



4. After potty training, JBR regressed to wetting her pants during the day as well as at night and

had soiling incidents.



5. She is reported to have had chronic respiratory infections and urinary tract infections/irritation.



6. Her father was often away from home, and she was reported to have missed him so much that

she cried.



7. Friends of the family were so concerned by the intensity of JBR's pageant life that they planned

an intervention with Patsy to confront her over the "mega-JonBenet thing".



8. She was in therapy.



9. Patsy took her into the bathroom on a number of occasions and closed the door, after which JBR

could be heard screaming.



10. JBR was found crying alone on the stairs at the family party on Dec. 23, and had an argument

with her mother on Christmas Day.



These are not things that contribute to or reflect a normal, fun childhood.



Quite apart from any consideration of outright physical abuse, there is a simple explanation possible for JBR's toileting issues: she wanted to remain a child. This would be consistent with, and perhaps a sequel to, her continuing to drink from a baby bottle into her third year, as well as with being sick a great deal. The increase in wetting and soiling coincides with the ramped up pageant activities in '96 (Thank you, eileenhawkeye! Great work!). Pageant life and its growing list of corollaries meant that, by the second half of '96, outside of school, JBR spent more time with adults than with other children. And even at school she was being separated from her peers. Once she performed for every class, she was on a different level. Patsy was not easy to say no to; and when we can't say no out loud, our bodies will say it for us.



I don't mean that a possible desire to remain a child would be the only explanation, just that it may have been a sustained note underneath everything else. JBR may well have wished she could go back to the time when she didn't have to take care of her own toileting "like a big girl" - the time before Mommy got sick and the time before Beth died and Daddy got sad and went away a lot. This could shed light on JBR's fascination with Shirley Temple movies. They're about an adorable little blond girl, often without a mom, who sings and dances, doesn't grow up, makes father figures happy, and makes everything turn out okay.



And there's this: The fact that JBR enjoyed performing doesn't prove that everything was fine. In fact, we know otherwise. When questioned about the extent of pageant activities, Patsy flat out lied. She said it didn't amount to more than a couple of Sunday afternoons! Why the lie? Her extreme minimizing showed she wished to hide an unhealthy excess - of time, money, her own psychological investment, and likely some combination thereof. A healthy, honest man would have exclaimed, "A couple of Sunday afternoons?!" or at least said, "Now wait, Patsy, it's a lot more than that..." But John went right along with it. Both parents saddling their six year old daughter with a heavy agenda and trying to pretend otherwise to themselves and others -- that's treating her as an object, and it wasn't normal.

Most of the things you describe are completely normal things in a child's life.

There is nothing here that shows a child in crisis. Just normal childhood except for her mothers illness and her dusters death which are what? Life. Just life.

I know many kids that spend more time with adults than kids. That usually means they are smarter and well versed.

None of this points to abuse. None of it points to murder. And since we know the DNA does not connect patsy. That's it.

The criminal who did this left their DNA. They left it in more than one place. The Ramsey's don't match that DNA.

That's all I have to say on this. It's completely simple and if this was the SMITH case it would be the end of it. Imo


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The criminal who did this left their DNA. They left it in more than one place.

Please provide the evidence of this.

 

[Chewy]

Please provide the evidence of this.

If you are asking this then you obviously haven't followed the DNA evidence of the case. Just google it and you'll find the information. Or have you already forgotten that the DNA excluded the parents as suspects which is why the DA of the case wrote a public apology to the Ramseys?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

If you are asking this then you obviously haven't followed the DNA evidence of the case. Just google it and you'll find the information. Or have you already forgotten that the DNA excluded the parents as suspects which is why the DA of the case wrote a public apology to the Ramseys?

That's right you have no such information.

If you did you would post it.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

the DA of the case

I know why you avoid identifying that person.

That would be Mary Lacy, the felon.

 

[Chewy]

So the people who have access to all the information, both the old DA and the new DA who didn't charge them are all part of some evil conspiracy that trumps the expertise of people online gossiping about alleged theories who don't have access to the actual data.

Gotcha!