Patsy Ramsey

[DeDee]

Since 3:22 today:

1. She was a bad cop. who didn't want to be held accountable for screwing up. An 11 year veteran telling people to walk through a crime scene is inexcusably incompetent.

2. Uh NOPE. Any professional cop would declare it a crime scene and search the premisis. Period the end. That's COP 101. You're acting like she was a friend who showed up or a therapist or something.

COP 101 The parents are ALWAYS suspects from the get go. The premisis is contained because valuable evidence is there.

Even if she DID think that Jonbenet was kidnapped, you contain the scene. There could be valuable evidence needed down the line that would be tossed out because she let groups of people roam the house.

What professional cop lets two people wander through a crime scene thereby rendering ANY evidence picked up later as inadmissable in court.

Her eyes aren't bugging at the moment, she's got bugged out eyes through the entire interview and is barely coherent. She wasn't a rookie cop with no experience when she arrived.

She screwed up big time. If "containing the crime scene" was "in over her head" then she was a very unprofessional cop.

3. That's how I took it as well. She totally screwed up and then tried to play it that she had been duped by the "evil powerful Ramseys" as a way of justifying her mistake.

She was fired from the force for being a bad cop and then tried to sue them for slander or something. And the courts threw out her case.

She also reached out to Patsy before she died and then tried to spin the whole thing into a book deal.

She's crazy.

4. These are all interesting points but they don't reflect what she says in the video. She's a freaking psycho in that video.

And, she didn't act like a cop. Any cop that is a professional would have put everyone in the other room and called for back up and immediately contained the scene even if they had screwed up by not containing the scene from the start.

You'd realize you contaminated the scene and get everyone OUT immediately.

And consider that she presents it as "John went straight to the basement."

Well HELLO!!! If the Ramseys were sleeping on the top floor and Burke on the second and everyone was gatherered on the first, it makes sense to go start at the floor where no one had been.

5. Calling people "psychotic" because they read a certain type of author is certainly being judgmental IMO

I'm not being judgmental about the Linda Ardnt video. It really does blow my mind that people watch that interview and see her as a rational police officer. She can barely get through the interview. She's got bugged out eyes and is wandering off in her thoughts and starts talking like a nut.

She doesn't at ALL come across like any other police officer I've ever seen interviewed about a crime. But more than that she looks totally crazy to me when I watch the interview. She's so over the top it really blows my mind that people just watch the same video and see HER as rational and then watch the Patsy video and see her as "over the top."

That's not a "judgment" it's my sincere feelings on the matter.

ETA Please note that I'm not just talking about theorists on THIS SITE. I've visited many other sites. This site is generally more rational and intelligent than others I've gone to. So I'm not necessarily talking about people here.

6. Agreed. And beyond that, a normal cop wouldn't be doing the whole drama queen "I saw EVIL!!!!!!" crap. A real cop wouldn't even be thinking like that at all because they are trained to be calm and focus on the protocols and the room. She was and still is a hystrionic failure as a police officer.

A real cop would be thinking, we need to get back up and contain the scene. She really thought John was going to murder everyone in the room and she need 18 bullets to take him out?

She's a freaking nut.

7. Again it blows my mind that anyone can watch that video and not see a mentally ill woman

 

[Frigga]

From John Ramsey's own mouth in this interview... I am flabbergasted:

"The police... the police withheld JonBenet's body for burial to try to force us to their terms!"

Oh. MY. God! I can't beleive he actually said this. Wow.

This is a must see interview. They lie to Larry King- left and right!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=1weSxDOI77s

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

From John Ramsey's own mouth in this interview... I am flabbergasted:

"The police... the police withheld JonBenet's body for burial to try to force us to their terms!"

Oh. MY. God! I can't beleive he actually said this. Wow.

This is a must see interview. They lie to Larry King- left and right!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=1weSxDOI77s

That is true. It is true as per the Medical examiner. They wanted him to hold the body and he wouldn't.

 

[Frigga]

You missed the point entirely. I am astounded since that is close to a line from the ransom note. Never mind.

"You will also be denied her remains for proper burial"

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You missed the point entirely. I am astounded since that is close to a line from the ransom note. Never mind.

"You will also be denied her remains for proper burial"

I don't think it connects. I see where you are going but I think that is the issue with so much of this case. A phrase or a word and people want to connect it and make it make sense.

I think the reason this case does not make sense is because there is so many unknowns.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Calling people "psychotic" because they read a certain type of author is certainly being judgmental IMO

I'm not being judgmental about the Linda Ardnt video. It really does blow my mind that people watch that interview and see her as a rational police officer. She can barely get through the interview. She's got bugged out eyes and is wandering off in her thoughts and starts talking like a nut.

She doesn't at ALL come across like any other police officer I've ever seen interviewed about a crime. But more than that she looks totally crazy to me when I watch the interview. She's so over the top it really blows my mind that people just watch the same video and see HER as rational and then watch the Patsy video and see her as "over the top."

That's not a "judgment" it's my sincere feelings on the matter.


ETA Please note that I'm not just talking about theorists on THIS SITE. I've visited many other sites. This site is generally more rational and intelligent than others I've gone to. So I'm not necessarily talking about people here.

I gotta agree, I loved Steven King when I was younger and I too think Linda is/was wiffty...a tad "off"
Not the brightest or best of the bunch for sure....


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[Frigga]

I gotta agree, I loved Steven King when I was younger and I too think Linda is/was wiffty...a tad "off"
Not the brightest or best of the bunch for sure....


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I think she watched her life go to hell in a hand basket. You don't just get on the police force- you have police academy and training- a lot of a potential police officers life begins before they even become Law Enforcement. She was doing something right, to make detective- that doesn't happen overnight either.

I am not excusing the mistakes she made, and maybe that isn't coming off clearly. I feel bad for her, all the way around. I lived in Boulder- I know the crime statistics from around that time period.

Her career was virtually ended by this case. I have compassion for that. I have compassion for any woman who was there that day (who did not participate in the crime or coverup), in the insanity of that morning- how one thing led to another... how the parents behavior seemingly did not match her impression (or mine) for the circumstances and how it must have all come together, in her mind, in that moment. What others see as unstable or crazy from the interview I saw as her being careful and at times unsure how much she should/could reveal and how exactly to say it. I felt like she was keeping a great deal back, and that was partially the reason for how uncomfortable she appeared.

I can't even imagine what it must have been like to witness John Ramsey carrying his baby girl the way he was said to have- up those stairs. I can't imagine how she must have felt seeing that sweet, tiny little girl stiff as a board, with injuries, rigor and the smell of death. I can't even fathom it. I would probably never be the same again myself. I have to admit, there have been times reading on this forum that I have sat silently, in tears, astounded at the brutality of the crime and the behavior of these parents- from behind my computer... far removed from the actual events. I think she tried her best, under impossible circumstances. I am going to save my disgust, anger, and beliefs in crazy for the perp(s) of this crime and the ones who knowingly covered up for him/her.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think she watched her life go to hell in a hand basket. You don't just get on the police force- you have police academy and training- a lot of a potential police officers life begins before they even become Law Enforcement. She was doing something right, to make detective- that doesn't happen overnight either.

I am not excusing the mistakes she made, and maybe that isn't coming off clearly. I feel bad for her, all the way around. I lived in Boulder- I know the crime statistics from around that time period.

Her career was virtually ended by this case. I have compassion for that. I have compassion for any woman who was there that day (who did not participate in the crime or coverup), in the insanity of that morning- how one thing led to another... how the parents behavior seemingly did not match her impression (or mine) for the circumstances and how it must have all come together, in her mind, in that moment. What others see as unstable or crazy from the interview I saw as her being careful and at times unsure how much she should/could reveal and how exactly to say it. I felt like she was keeping a great deal back, and that was partially the reason for how uncomfortable she appeared.

I can't even imagine what it must have been like to witness John Ramsey carrying his baby girl the way he was said to have- up those stairs. I can't imagine how she must have felt seeing that sweet, tiny little girl stiff as a board, with injuries, rigor and the smell of death. I can't even fathom it. I would probably never be the same again myself. I have to admit, there have been times reading on this forum that I have sat silently, in tears, astounded at the brutality of the crime and the behavior of these parents- from behind my computer... far removed from the actual events. I think she tried her best, under impossible circumstances. I am going to save my disgust, anger, and beliefs in crazy for the perp(s) of this crime and the ones who knowingly covered up for him/her.

Here is something that struck me in this..

I can not imagine a father finding his dead daughter and then carrying her stiff body up in hopes of still maybe saving her.
I can not fathom that mother coming in and finding her dead daughter.

But the cop? She should be seasoned and professional. If the training really stuck she should have been able to handle the scene and to keep it together and keep to the cop handbook on such cases. First do no harm. Just like a doctor. Protect the scene, and make sure it is secure. She never did that not from the beginning.
Do I feel bad for her? No. Not really. She was supposed to do her job. She was not there to hand hold or make the best of it, She was there to do a job and she just failed miserably.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Patsy was psychotic.

 

[gramcracker]

IMO it's copping out to rufuse to realize or admit that LE is similar to the military in that there are superiors and there are underlings and superiors must be obeyed, like it or not, agree with it or not. there are procedures in place where superiors are criticized/punished for ordering underlings to deviate from accepted protocols but those procedures happen well after the fact, if at all. orders from above are required to be followed "in the heat of battle" and the correctness or lack of it is sorted out later. unfortunately, damage is too often done in the meantime. IMO it's not difficult to see exactly what happened here. LA was not omnipotent. she was given marching orders and she was hung out to dry for obeying them. she was ordered to treat the Rs like victims and no one gave her permission to treat them like suspects. no one found additional officers to assist her in containing the scene. granted, there was only a holiday skeleton crew available but someone in command should have managed the day's priorities much better than they did. disobeying orders from above would have put her employment in jeopardy. are you saying that she should have "gone rogue" and put aside the fear of consequences? hindsight tells us that, but what choice did she truly have that day within the limits of the quasi-military structure which employed her?

 

[bettybaby00]

That is true. It is true as per the Medical examiner. They wanted him to hold the body and he wouldn't.

Incorrect.

 

[Tawny]

She didn't even know it was a murder scene at the time. She was very likely instructed by her superiors to treat it as a kidnapping location. That is handled differently than a murder scene investigation.

JMO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

She didn't even know it was a murder scene at the time. She was very likely instructed by her superiors to treat it as a kidnapping location. That is handled differently than a murder scene investigation.

JMO.

I disagree.

Even a kidnapping ...the house should have been locked down, it was a crime scene. It's ridiculous to instruct any civilian to tramp through the house or stand by while advocates cleaned up or allow a parade of friends to enter.

Not only that, but she had John move the body to its final place under the tree, permitted it to be covered, and instructed everyone to converge over JonBenet and pray and Patsy to throw herself ontop of her to say goodbye....







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[bettybaby00]

From Kolar. It's lengthily, but very illuminating:

I had also labored under the impression from the beginning of my involvement in the case that the Ramsey family had not hired attorneys and private investigators until after Lt. Eller had attempted to withhold the body of JonBenét in exchange for a family interview.

I had reviewed a VHS video tape in the investigative files that featured an interview with Ramsey family friend and attorney Mike Bynum. Acting as a spokesman for the family, Bynum was speaking on national television in September 1997, and being interviewed by news correspondent Diane Sawyer, who had asked why the Ramsey family had obtained a lawyer. Bynum indicated that he, as a family friend, felt they should have “legal advice” in the matter concerning the police investigation into the murder of their daughter. He had mentioned this to John Ramsey because, as a former prosecutor, he knew where the attention of the police would be focused – the parents and family.

Sawyer commented that by Saturday, two days following the murder, police were “openly hostile” toward the family. Bynum was reportedly told by the D.A.’s office that the police were refusing to release the body of JonBenét for burial unless the parents would provide interviews with investigators. He wasn’t sure if this course of action was legal or not, but pointed to this action as being “immoral and unethical.” Bynum indicated that he just was not willing to have the family participate in that kind of situation, and told the DA / police that not only would the family not give an interview under these circumstances, but he told them “Hell no, you’re not getting an interview.”

Investigative files revealed that Eller had not even considered this option until Saturday, December 28th, around the time that non-testimonial evidence was being collected from the immediate family. Even then, it was reported that his thoughts of holding on to the body of JonBenét was not for the intention of holding her for “ransom” in exchange for a family interview, but to determine if there were any other forensic examinations that could have been conducted that would help shed light on the mechanics of her murder.

When Eller was discussing this possibility with the D.A.’s office, it was Pete Hoffstrom who coined the phrase “ransom the body,” and this term eventually was espoused by Ramsey attorneys in later public statements.

I found it noteworthy that Bynum specifically stated in the Primetime interview that it was he who suggested to John Ramsey that attorneys should be brought in to consult with the family. He expressed the thought to John that there were some ‘legal issues that needed to be taken care of.’ Bynum went on to indicate that he did not think that it had occurred to the family to do this prior to his conversation with John. Bynum’s inference to the national audience during the September 1997 interview, however, was that legal representation had not been retained until after Commander Eller had performed this act of desperation. So you can imagine my surprise when I learned that Ramsey attorneys and their investigators were working the case on Friday morning before the autopsy of JonBenét was even underway. Even more intriguing was the identity of the person selected for their first interview. It was not housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the woman whom Patsy had named as a possible suspect – a person who needed money and who had previously mentioned concerns about the kidnapping of JonBenét. Ramsey attorneys instead chose trusted family friend Fleet White: one of the few who had immediately been summoned to the Ramsey home on the morning of the kidnapping, and the only individual who had accompanied John Ramsey to the basement in search of JonBenét.

4057 - 95

Spin much?

What's also so very revealing about this passage is the ever evolving narrative regarding how and when the Rs obtained their lawyers.

Before their daughter's autopsy had even begun, their lawyers were already hard at work. The evolution of how the lawyers were hired is a fascinating read.

 

[DeDee]

Patsy's Interview 06/98

**** Poop unflushed in JBs bathroom

(0272-24) THOMAS HANEY: I think we left off, finished with number 18, and it's a bathroom, so go to 19.
PATSY RAMSEY: This one looks like somebody went to the potty and didn't flush.
THOMAS HANEY: Okay, is that out of the ordinary?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not terribly, no.
THOMAS HANEY: Did you -- did you take JonBenet to the bathroom prior to putting her to bed?
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
THOMAS HANEY: Would she have gotten up during the night and gone to the bathroom?
PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
THOMAS HANEY: If she did, would she have flushed?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily.


**** JBs poopie pants in bathroom

TOM HANEY: How about 378?

PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her pants.

TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular pants, when she would have worn those last?

PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably recently because they are dropped in the middle of the floor, but I don't remember exactly.

TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It appears they are stained.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet had a problem with?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

**** PJ bottoms with poop and candy with smeared poop are in Kolar's book

 

[Linda7NJ]

From Kolar. It's lengthily, but very illuminating:


4057 - 95

Spin much?

What's also so very revealing about this passage is the ever evolving narrative regarding how and when the Rs obtained their lawyers.

Before their daughter's autopsy had even begun, their lawyers were already hard at work. The evolution of how the lawyers were hired is a fascinating read.

Oh yeah!

And comments by John that their job was to defend him, not investigate leads to find his daughters killer.




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[Meara]

It could have been that they were indeed gripping the note and so did not transfer good prints. IT could be that the way they handled it did not leave USABLE prints.
I don't know why people think that there is no possibility she got it herself. My kids go in the fridge and get things all the time without me knowing.

I believe people tend to discount the possibility because both parents do in their 1998 statements. John says he didn't think JBR could open the walk-in fridge door. Patsy says no, JBR wouldn't have gotten the pineapple herself.

 

[Chewy]

You missed the point entirely. I am astounded since that is close to a line from the ransom note. Never mind.

"You will also be denied her remains for proper burial"

This is interesting but it's also unfair. That ransom note was probably drilled into their heads by the time they got to Larry King. They had hours to analyze it. So it would make sense if some of the terms were similar to the ransom note.

I was always more interested in the Christmas letters Patsy wrote and those terms showing up in the ransom note. But aside from that, that's what he was describing.

When people analyze words and things they always make it sound like they found an SBTC tatoo on one of the parents or something. If they felt like the PD was "withholding the body from proper burial" how many different ways are they supposed to say it?

I think she watched her life go to hell in a hand basket. You don't just get on the police force- you have police academy and training- a lot of a potential police officers life begins before they even become Law Enforcement. She was doing something right, to make detective- that doesn't happen overnight either.



I can't even imagine what it must have been like to witness John Ramsey carrying his baby girl the way he was said to have- up those stairs. I can't imagine how she must have felt seeing that sweet, tiny little girl stiff as a board, with injuries, rigor and the smell of death. I can't even fathom it. I would probably never be the same again myself. I have to admit, there have been times reading on this forum that I have sat silently, in tears, astounded at the brutality of the crime and the behavior of these parents- from behind my computer... far removed from the actual events. I think she tried her best, under impossible circumstances. I am going to save my disgust, anger, and beliefs in crazy for the perp(s) of this crime and the ones who knowingly covered up for him/her.

I appreciate your perspective but it does come across as making excuses and being way too emotional about a police officer. If she was a male police officer I doubt very much you'd be making the same considerations.

And as I've already said, I can cut her some slack for not securing the crime scene when she first got there. She thought it was a kidnapping. But even if it was a kidnapping, she still should have realized that she shouldn't allow people to contaminate the scene. I think you are missing the point.

Say for example when they went into the basement they knocked something over by accident and tore fibers off a bit of their shirt. Say Jonbenet really WAS kidnapped. Say the kidnappers left evidence on the scene. Letting those two men go through the crime scene contaminated it and thereby rendered any evidence found there useless. It is why this case is so problematic and became impossible to try.

When she let Patsy touch her daughters body she also contaminated it. Say for example that Mr. Black (I'm making someone up) was the guy who kidnapped Jonbenet. And the Ramseys don't know it and he's at the house. Any contamination by him would now be suspect because you wouldn't be able to prove whether he left it on the scene the night before or that morning.

That IS basic cop 101.

The most important aspect of evidence collection and preservation is protecting the crime scene. This is to keep the pertinent evidence uncontaminated until it can be recorded and collected. The successful prosecution of a case can hinge on the state of the physical evidence at the time it is collected. The protection of the scene begins with the arrival of the first police officer at the scene and ends when the scene is released from police custody.

You say that she must have done something right to become a detective and I don't agree. I think if she was an 11 year veteran and she let her emotions get in the way she wasn't a professional.


I also find it bizarre that you'd cut her all this emotional slack for being there and not cut Patsy the same slack. She just found her daughter's body in that condition and then was drilled by police and accused of killing her. Yet Patsy is "over the top" and Linda is a poor thing who was overwhelmed by it all. Really?



I'll give a personal example to show what I mean. Several years ago my boss was murdered in his apartment. He was stabbed to death in his apartment. Several weeks prior he had had altercations with one of our coworkers who also happened to be a police officer, let's call him Sam. The day they found the body two other employees had gone to the house to see if he was ok. When they called the police, the police made them stay OUTSIDE the apartment. Sam shows up on the scene and barges his way into the apartment and helps them on the scene.

Turns out later he became a suspect because of the fights he had had with the man. He'd been stabbed 17 times while he was tied up, which they called "over kill." Many of us who worked with Sam thought he had something to do with it and that the reason he barged into the apartment that day was to contaminate the scene. If they found his DNA on the scene they wouldn't be able to prove it he had left it there the night before or that morning.

That's another example of cops screwing up containing the crime scene and they were all disciplined for allowing him in the apartment when he knew the victim.

 

[TaylurRose02]

Then why would she tell them she handled it. It makes not sense. She knew her prints would be on it. They are supposed to be on it. She has nothing to hide in having her prints on it. She denied it but left it in the house?

It just is not feasible.

She left it in the house because it was a ransom note she addressed to the family...I'm not understanding why she wouldn't have left it in the house? The point of a ransom note is ransom for whatever has been taken. &How else would she have read the note? No cop is going to buy that she found it and didn't touch it. That just isn't feasible.

"Even more mystifying, the ransom note itself showed no fingerprints or signs of handling, creasing, or damage." That's an excerpt from PMPT which only builds on my conclusion that neither parents fingerprints were found for a reason. If you listen to PR's call to 911 she is absolutely frantic, so in her frantic state of mind they both gently held the ransom note? That doesn't add up. The emotion of fear, which the kidnapping of your child would cause for many parents, causes epinephrine to be released which causes an increase in heart rate, sweating, etc... Again, the clean undamaged note doesn't match up with the emotional state PR called 911 in.

No, she knew her prints wouldn't be on it and probably would blame it on the same thing you did, that they just weren't usable prints. The pad of paper and cup of pens that were used was next to the phone she called 911 on, yet only JR identified it as belonging in the home.
"ST: The note was written from a pad inside the home.
PR: It was?
ST: UH-huh.
PR: Oh, I didn’t know that."

Also on their CNN interview, PR said she only read the note to where it said "we have your daughter" and then ran upstairs to JB's room and screamed for JR. This would contradict with the below interview with Kane...
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, for a moment. I mean,
10 Patsy said, it says not to call the police. I
11 said, call them anyway. We called them. I mean,
12 there's no question in my mind that that was the
13 right answer.
If PR said she only got through the first couple of sentences, how would she have known that the note said not to call police? Considering the whole first page is rambling about the money. If PR had gone back downstairs to read it her emotions would have matched the panic in her 911 call which I explained earlier which contradicts with the condition the note was found in.

Either way you spin it nothing matches up.

 

[Chewy]

Seriously, Patsy was heavily medicated after Jonbenet's death. So her weird responses don't hold the same weight to me as they seem to everyone else.

It's not that I want to 100 percent consider her innocent. I don't know. But for the sake of argument let's consider it IF she was completely innocent.


She just went through the shock of finding her daughter kidnapped

She sits for hours in a panicked state

Then her daughter's body is found dead. Let that shock sink in for a while.

Then consider the brutally murdered state of the body.

Then she's heavily sedated.

Then she's interviewed.


To me I can understand why she at times would seem incoherent and confused.


Now let's consider the argument about the finger prints on the ransom note. Both she and John would have a valid reason for their fingerprints being on the ransom note. So what?? They put on plastic gloves and handled it? They didn't actually pick it up?

Just because finger prints weren't found on it, doesn't mean anything significant to me.


The flashlight with no fingerprints on the battery is more compelling fingerprint evidence than the ransom note, IMO.